Those stats for a defensive forwad are quite impressive. Haven't seen them yet.
If, and he could have, kicked those 2 goals..we still may have lost because of other weaknesses in our team, but he would have had a complete game.

I agree he's done a good job.

I want the best team selected every week, to win. I don't know who would replace Houla as the defensive HF if we were to drop him.
I prefer Houla to Carrots as the defensive forward.

Look, Houla will retire in the next few years, but right now he's at his best: stronger than ever, classy as ever and more smarts that any developing HF on our list (imo)...experiece.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

He was absolutely stuffed.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

We are pretty harsh on young players and expecting instant success. Austin and O'keefe need more than one game to assess their development.
You can not judge Hendersen a 21 year old KPP for another two years. He has not played great footy and appears more athlete than footballer but he needs 50-70 games to hit his straps.

Only because he works his guts out.


And has to, to make up for those less capable than he.

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THEY LIKE TO SEND UP!!!!!!!!

Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.

Gilly I dont want to knock our recruiters in anyway Hughes et al have done a fantastic job and are probably batting at 80% strike rate (which is pretty damn impressive) in particular with our late and rookie draft picks.

But its my understanding that we were the only ones out of all the AFL Clubs to miss the only knock on Matthew Watson and that is his aversion to body on body contact.

Yep hindsight is a wonderful thing and had we known that Smith would be available at our Pick 18 and McCarthy would still be available at 34 then this set of three:

- Smith
- McCarthy
- Mitchell

would have really set us up going forward.

I dont wish ill of Matthew Watson and hope he comes good (he has to he is ours - but my criticism is that if all other recruiters were aware of the issue why werent we.

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Winston Churchill

Yep stats dont tell the full story Cazzeman.

The stats read well for Houlihan but as I argued before. what was Houlihan's contribution other than keeping Hurn quiet.

Fact we were behind for the whole game and needed scoreboard pressure.
Houlihan was a forward who provided no scoreboard pressure. He had minimal impact on the game himself. Forget his job on Hurn. Gartlett and Betts did their jobs as forwards in relation to scoreboard pressure and also contributed to defensively.

Can we win a flag or go forward from where we are now playing Houlihan as a defensive forward. personally I dont think so.

All the players mentioned before were fairly decent footballers who like Houlihan played around 200 games but as they approached 30 werent in Collingwood's plans to play on the last day in September.

I see Houlihan the same way. One thing that cant be disputed is he will get his picture in the hallway because he played the majority of his career in shithouse teams.
the question to me now is does our coaching staff see Houihan in our best 22 playing this role or is he getting a game because we have injuries

Simple question Agro.

What is the easiest thing in football to be able to teach a guy with the right Coaches?

1. Kick a ball 60 metres?
2. Read the ball coming into the backline better than most and then make the right choice and use it well coming out of D50?
3. Stand next to your opponent and put some physical pressure on?

No player is perfect but some issues are far easier to tweak than others.

Regards Cazzesman

PS Who said we didn't know Watson would need work in that area.

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deserved a 4th time Michael Jezz

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but I reckon that we are pretty harsh on young players and expecting instant success. Austin and O'keefe need more than one game to assess their development.
You can not judge Hendersen a 21 year old KPP for another two years. He has not played great footy and appears more athlete than footballer but he needs 50-70 games to hit his straps.

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

So which of your many arguments are we talking about here?

Is he in our best 22? Time and player injuries will tell I guess. If we had the full list to pick from then maybe not. At the moment we don't, he was fit and he did well in his role, so the MC got it right.

or

Did he do his role as asked on Saturday? I'd suggest that would be a resounding 'YES"! Why would you forget the role he did on Hurn if that was what the Coach asked him to do. I guess you just wanted him to tell Ratts to get stuffed and play his own game

or

Was he there to kick goals? Nice if he did but I see kicked a point and was credited with 2 goal assists. Most games we had been scoring 15+ goals without him so he was given another role.

If we got rid of those approaching 30 then guys like Scotland would be missing aswell.

If I was you I would stick to 'Is Houls in our best 22?' and move onto another whipping boy who might deserve it more. I'm not sure you have given Juddy a crack yet this year and he only had 17 possessions.

Regards Cazzesman

_________________
Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Stats are actually the ONLY things which tell the full story, because they're dispassionate and unbiased. You just need the right stats.

If I were you Keogh, I'd take up Soccer or tennis or some sport that doesn't expose you that much. I really do think that your heart's in the right place, but footy can get a little complex sometimes and it might just be a tad hard for you. Sit back, enjoy Carlton's rise, revel in Gartlett and Bettttts and Thorton playing well this year, and Sentanta, and Ratt's is doing a lott bettter now. Justt enjoy the ride and chill outtt.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

What you're trying to say moshe is that footy isn't as simple as it used to be

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I have never been a Houlihan fan as we all know. I also have stated why as well. IMO he has minimal impact in games. You can look at most things in different ways and disagree until the cows come home.
How do you blokes not know that Worsfold told Hurn to play a more defensive role last week and therefore you can argue he beat Houlihan as Houlihan didnt score a goal and just had a fair game offensively.

So you guys might be off the mark. How do you know?

two things for certain are
Collingwood's brain trust were right in putting the cue in the rack when it comes to those players I have mentioned. Their time was up for whatever reason even though they weren't hopeless even in their last year.

We can all make a judgement about Ryan Houlihan as he is about to play 200 games of AFL. Plenty of evidence. He is a bit of an oxymoron as he is one of the worst players to play 200 games. You have to be a decent footballer to some degree which you have to be to play that amount of football at the top level but what has he achieved in that time.

And the key question is does he have a role to play for us to move forward.
The way I see it . NO
I might be wrong but you guys seem to dismiss any opinion I have ,which is amusing to me because it shows a lack of ability to think the other way, that being that the CARLTON FOOTBALL CLUB SOMETIMES GET IT WRONG.

As for enjoying the ride I do. I love watching the development of some of our youngsters. Dont worry about that.

But i am one of these guys that doesnt hold back with my opinions even it does go against the grain.

Its like the parent who thinks their little princess does nothing wrong.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

That includes me

I'll quote myself......just a theory

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I see you watching me watching you.

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That’s not a political statement — it’s a harsh reality, and we must act,” she said. “He is a clear and present danger to the things that keep us strong and free. I support impeachment.”

Do you know what role hurn plays in the WC team?
1. Houlihan went to hurn. Not vice versa
2. Hurns greatest strength is his long accurate kicking. They try to free him up whereever possible to drive the ball foward with his kicking. On Sunday, hurn had was limited to just 6 kicks. If you want to have a look at his potential impact, just look at a few of his kickouts.
3. Hurns 6 kicks and 10 possesssions were season lows. His dreamteam score of 40 was a season low

Do you really think WC would sacrifice one of the best kicks in the team to lock down on a player that had played just over a 1/3 of a senior game for the entire season? (37% game time against swans)

If you look at houlihans game compared to hurn...
82% game time (hurn 80%)
19 possessions (hurn 10)
7 contested (hurn 2)
3 clearances (hurn 0)
3 inside 50s (hurn 1 I50, 2 rebound 50s)
6 tackles (hurn 2)
3 1%rs (hurn 0)
2 goal assists (team high), (hurn 0)

Houlihan didnt just beat hurn. He spanked him. It was one of the few players on the day that clearly won their match ups for the day.


The only thing that is clear is your bias against a player.

Its undisputed that houlihan is the best option on our list as a defensive/lockdown forward.

Off the top of my head, houlihan has beaten shaw, enright, and hurn in the past 18mths ( (+other players) - all key opposition playmakers and likely finalists that we will go up against. Whilst garlett/betts apply defensive pressure they are not capable of shutting down these guys.

Thanks 4th Chicken

Great stats. Great game.

I'm not interested in 2012, I'm interested in 2011.
Houla would have to be around the best 22 mark in nearly everyone's books, media included.

I don't care if he is or if he isn't, but I'm not writing him off for 2011.

If he's the best available and is selected by the MC then he's a best 22 player.
If he's not, he's marginal, but not useless.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You are right we will never know. Excellent logic. Just like we will never know if Hurn confided to all his team-mates after the game that he was flogged by Houls and that Houls was the best player he had ever played against.

As for having just a fair game, aside from not kicking a goal but assisting in 2 plus having 19 possessions from a HFF, I'd say it was better than a fair days effort.

If Yarran had just 10 poss off a HBF after being tagged defensively and his opponent had 19 poss and assisted in 2 goals you wouldn't hesitate to bag Yazz and say he was beaten on the day because he didn't work hard enough.

Regards Cazzesman

_________________
Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”