Just how important are these two?

Jamison and Bower are our preferred no1 and no.2 defenders now. Ratten made that clear when he said Bower was supposed to play on Brown.

If Thornton is now the no.3 guy there, and let's face it he is not a naturally attacking defender (his natural instinct is to always chip to the side), then should we consider blooding a kid like White who by all accounts has shown some really good signs?

And Houlihan, geez, you can't tell me he is a vital cog in this wheel now.

And Walker, what position does he play? Defender on a 196cm fwd? What's the point? Why isn't he being settled? Why can't he kick?

I'm not saying these two aren't in our top 18, or 22, I'm just saying I don't think they are vital, and won't improve much more, and I wonder if it is time to start turning over some of this team?

I know I will get taken to the cleaners for this thread, but I don't care, I think Thornton is just so so and is clearly not in our top 2 defenders anymore, so maybe it is time to move on.

At the end of the year, trade Thornton, Houlihan and Walker ??

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

T-Bird is 3rd at best so I agree with you, Jammo can hold the backline together

I hate the fact that Houla will have played so many games for Carlton so I admit I am biased I would have dropped him 5 years ago.

Walker should be trialled in the forward line.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I tend to mostly agree with you. Once Bower is back I'd think about easing Thornton out of the team for a player like White, or even someone smaller depending on the opposition.

Houlihan I'm not sure about. Whenever I think he's gone he puts in a good one. Though really, that's probably not good enough. Happy for us to try someone else.

I'd probably keep Walker in as he has the most upside of the three, I know he hasn't shown in since 2006 but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to not having had a full season in ages.

Pretty much agree with both of you. Good feedback.

Thornton and Houlihan are just so, well, so so. And I just can't imagine seeing either of them in our next Premiership team.

Blood White, and Get Austin in when he's fit. That's 4 KPP down back, so you can afford to lose Thornton. As a tallish defender, he would have some currency on the market.

Walker agreed should maybe be trialled up fwd, or at the very least set him free to use him run and see how he goes, but I suspect he will turn it over a lot of the time. But in theory I agree - he is the youngest of the trio, has been injured for years, and has the best physical upside so of the 3 he should be the one who is persisted with. But if no luck by R22 maybe his papers are stamped and he would have currency you would think.

Houlihan would have little currency, maybe a top team would get him for his finishing skills.

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Will Houlihan be the first player in Carlton's history to reach the 200 game milestone without having once placed within the top 3 in the best and fairest?



Not quite.... Curly Rod Austin's highest placing was a 4th place, but he has the distinction of playing in a premiership team and routinely beating Leigh Matthews in one-on-one duels. Claiming the scalp of Matthews on a regular basis gives you a dispensation.



Maybe I missed one or two others, but generally to get to the 200 game mark at Carlton you have well and truly left a legacy. (Rod McGregor is another exception as he played before the b &f)




It is an indication on the state of the Carlton football club that Houlihan will get to 200 games. Carlton are an irrelevant (At best) mid table club. They aren't in the game- they are a team of noddys.


If Houlihan was a game breaking 3 goal a match player, then full marks to him and I would welcome him obtaining the 200 game mark, but I haven't seen evidence of this so far this year.



Watching Phil Mickelson play golf this morning I got to see real emotion, real character, real drive, real courage against numerous setbacks.



The Carlton players would love to have 1/20th of his character. The club is just going through the motions.....and lacks passion.

I'll say this - our natural replacement for T-Bird is Aussie, not White. We just can't get the guy on the park. Really rate this guy, can't wait to get him down back or even as a tall up fwd.

Creative, gives us run, skills solid - all the tools to take us fwd.

I'd be looking to get both Austin and White into the back line for some experience asap.
There must be a realisation at coaching level that Thornton cannot play man on man and you can't play Andrew Walker on a bloke 6.6" tall.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

You can't blame the players - they're obviously just following the game plan of kick it long to the boundary line. Sometimes they get it right and it goes really, really wide.

When we miss the target, it finds its way to the corridor and we score a goal.

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end of message

The problem with Thornton, Houlihan and to a lesser extent Walker due to injury is that they are too inconsistent. They can all play good footy and with the amount of experience they have currently the variance between good and bad performances is too great.
At this stage of their careers the one thing you should expect is consistency.

The problem is that Houlihan rarely gets dropped for his form lapses, and Thornton never.

Thornton is better when Bower is in the team. Bower is the attacking defender. Thornton can be left to just purely stop his opponent.

Houlihan would be a great player in a great team. A little bit front runner for mine. However he has good skills and we cant really afford to drop those players because half our list have terrible skills.

Walker will not be the player we are all hoping he would be. Inconsistant skill and probably to many injuries during his early learning years. But with most of our list lacking pace, we'll persist with him. I'd like to see him left on a wing for a few weeks and just run up and down getting the ball as many times as possible. I think a large dose of confidence could do wonders for him.

Can't see any of them being dropped by the MC though.

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I support the Navy Blues whatever happens!

Walker is actually the one I'm most concerned with. He was set for a forward role this year after games late last year that showed a lot of promise. What has happened? I am willing to concede that he, Houla & Eddie might still be a pinch behind the rest of the squad when it comes to fitness despite them all slimming down and lowering their skinfolds, and that might be impacting on their performance.

Houla was frustrating on Saturday night because for a senior player his efforts were inconsistent, but in his defence he was right in the thick of the stoppages playing the role of battering ram. Perhaps this took the edge off because he has been in good form this year and late last year. I think the story of his night was best highlighted when he charged down to shepherd for a team mate on the wing in the second half and succeeded, only to watch his team mate continue to panic and scrub an I50.

Thornton's natural instinct isn't to chip sideways, it's to take it and run off HBF like Bower, it's just that he knows he can't spear his passes well. On top of that he has a good instinct on when to drop back to cut off shots and passes, so it makes sense that he be in a sweeping role, but Saturday night was one time where he should have been instructed to mix it up a bit because as Effes noted, his opponent was exploiting that. Thornton is not the weak link in that defence; he is the safety cord. He's always the guy closing off runs/shots into open goal and chopping off marks deep.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I think if you ask other clubs you will find that Walker doesn't hold much currency

Houlihan = Mark Waugh.

Classy and silky, and every time he's approaching getting axed will pull out a century.

Always the player that just does enough to hold his place when on the cusp.

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Congratulations CK95

That doesn't make sense.

Ratten said Bower would have taken Brown.

So, by that theory, Bower is a stopper who runs off.

But Thornton is the 3rd tall down back, surely if you're on the 3rd fwd you should be more attacking, but he keeps chipping sideways and runs at a nice slow jog.

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Agreed

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It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Thornton walks with the ball, Bower runs.
Thornton takes too long to get rid of the ball, Bower does not.

Sadly Bower is also better one on one than Thornton. Bower can't be in two places at once.

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I support the Navy Blues whatever happens!

He doesn't walk with the ball; really think back about how many times you've seen Thornton forward of HB, and what he does when he gets possession. It doesn't happen a lot, so I can forgive you for a clouded judgement.

What was unusual Saturday night was his willingness to take a different opponent when Hocking went into midfield. We needed Waite down there to allow for a little less musical chairs not on our terms.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Walker should take a leaf out of Daisy Thomas' book. Thomas has realised that he turns it over more often than not and all the flashy things he use to do have dried up and he looks like a fool trying them so now days he dedicates his game to running , running, tackling, running, bumping, tackling, running, running, sheparding, running, creating space for someone else to run into, then run, pushing back and running some more.
Walker should take this on and then work up from there. Running is what he is good at. He should be the guy who covers for guys like murphy and judd who can then afford to attack.

Walker should do this with a smile on his face and be happy that he is blessed with the running capablities and thoughness that can help the side.

Thornton, Houla and even Carazzo should be phased out of any key role.