TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year

Pagan was asked yesterday whether, given the difficult situation of the club, if 2005 was the year the Blues had to have - a corrective that would give it the necessary infusion of draft talent after the damaging over-achievement of 2004. "It should have happened the year before," replied Pagan. "I look back now and say, 'What happened in 2004? How did we go so well?' Did we over-achieve? What happened?' I still can't work it out. Think about a whole host of things."

Koutoufides also appears to have a leaner, hungry look. Pagan expressed hope that Kouta, rising 33, would play for years. "The way he's going at the moment, we just hope that he can, that he's one of those Craig Bradley, John Blakey type of players, who can just continue to go on."

Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year

Quote:

Effes wrote:

Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year

Quote:

Apparently I confused him with this article published the other week. He thought we were successful in 2004, can you believe it?

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241772

molsey wrote:

Effes wrote:

Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year

Quote:

Apparently I confused him with this article published the other week. He thought we were successful in 2004, can you believe it?

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241772

ThaT 'succesful season' cost us 2 gun players...and an opportunity to be closer to the pack.. i for one am very grateful we didnt have another opf those succesful seasons last year....

Well.. we could have been talking about Franklin and Deledio as well as Murphy and Kennedy.......

Cant see how that wouldnt go well for the future...

I mean who is really proud about 2004 today anyway???

Will anyone ever say..."How about that 2004!!! flower fantastic season we had.. gone are the times..."

or

"I remember 2004 ,... ace year!!! 10 wins and a percentage of around 60%...guns all over the park!!!.. what happened???"

Synbad wrote:

you know I agree :wink:

2004 Wins:

Geelong (4th), Melbourne (5th), West Coast (7th), Essendon* (8th), Roos (10th), Adelaide (12th), Collingwood (13th, twice), Hawthorn (15th), Richmond (16th)

Even if we hadn't have stolen some of those wins at the end of the season, we still would have missed the priority pick by a long way.

Synbad, I know how you feel on this one, but do you give any value to the Club from having a positive end to 2004, given 2002, 2003 and our financial problems at the time? I take your point about whether anyone sees 2004 as positive anymore, but at the time just to win a few games felt good.

Short sighted I know, but I wonder if 2004 helped us in non-draft picks terms?

I just want to apologise now for watching FOX Footy and enjoying our wins in every season except those where we didn't win the premiership.

Gee, that 1999 season cost us so many good players who knows where we might be right now. :roll:

Id love to know.....

Would people swap Lance and Kouta (to some our best 2 players).. for Deledio and Franklin????

Author:	Effes [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year
Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year Quote: Pagan was asked yesterday whether, given the difficult situation of the club, if 2005 was the year the Blues had to have - a corrective that would give it the necessary infusion of draft talent after the damaging over-achievement of 2004. "It should have happened the year before," replied Pagan. "I look back now and say, 'What happened in 2004? How did we go so well?' Did we over-achieve? What happened?' I still can't work it out. Think about a whole host of things."

Author:	Kouta [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:28 am ]
Post subject:
Beat me to it Effes! I would have guessed that was a Pagan quote without his name attached but this is an interesting quote from the article. Does Denis even know what he's doing? Quote: Koutoufides also appears to have a leaner, hungry look. Pagan expressed hope that Kouta, rising 33, would play for years. "The way he's going at the moment, we just hope that he can, that he's one of those Craig Bradley, John Blakey type of players, who can just continue to go on."

Author:	79Vintage [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:29 am ]
Post subject:
Effes, That's life.

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:49 am ]
Post subject:
"Im not going to be the man who is remembered for killing Bambi" Sounds like a job for Sticks....

Author:	The Tyrant [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:51 am ]
Post subject:
He should have an idea about why 2004/2005 ended the way they did... he was the cause of a lot of the pattern of those seasons.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7524	Page 1 of 6

Author:	molsey [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year
Effes wrote: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year Quote: Pagan was asked yesterday whether, given the difficult situation of the club, if 2005 was the year the Blues had to have - a corrective that would give it the necessary infusion of draft talent after the damaging over-achievement of 2004. "It should have happened the year before," replied Pagan. "I look back now and say, 'What happened in 2004? How did we go so well?' Did we over-achieve? What happened?' I still can't work it out. Think about a whole host of things." Apparently I confused him with this article published the other week. He thought we were successful in 2004, can you believe it? http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241772

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year
molsey wrote: Effes wrote: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year Quote: Pagan was asked yesterday whether, given the difficult situation of the club, if 2005 was the year the Blues had to have - a corrective that would give it the necessary infusion of draft talent after the damaging over-achievement of 2004. "It should have happened the year before," replied Pagan. "I look back now and say, 'What happened in 2004? How did we go so well?' Did we over-achieve? What happened?' I still can't work it out. Think about a whole host of things." Apparently I confused him with this article published the other week. He thought we were successful in 2004, can you believe it? http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241772 ThaT 'succesful season' cost us 2 gun players...and an opportunity to be closer to the pack.. i for one am very grateful we didnt have another opf those succesful seasons last year....

Author:	The Tyrant [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year
Synbad wrote: molsey wrote: Effes wrote: Weighty matters as cautious Pagan eyes new year Quote: Pagan was asked yesterday whether, given the difficult situation of the club, if 2005 was the year the Blues had to have - a corrective that would give it the necessary infusion of draft talent after the damaging over-achievement of 2004. "It should have happened the year before," replied Pagan. "I look back now and say, 'What happened in 2004? How did we go so well?' Did we over-achieve? What happened?' I still can't work it out. Think about a whole host of things." Apparently I confused him with this article published the other week. He thought we were successful in 2004, can you believe it? http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241772 ThaT 'succesful season' cost us 2 gun players...and an opportunity to be closer to the pack.. i for one am very grateful we didnt have another opf those succesful seasons last year.... REALLY??? Noo!! Surely not!!! You're not suggesting that you WANTED Carlton to finish lowly and recieve a Priority Pick are you Synbad?

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Well.. we could have been talking about Franklin and Deledio as well as Murphy and Kennedy....... Cant see how that wouldnt go well for the future... I mean who is really proud about 2004 today anyway??? Will anyone ever say..."How about that 2004!!! flower fantastic season we had.. gone are the times..." or "I remember 2004 ,... ace year!!! 10 wins and a percentage of around 60%...guns all over the park!!!.. what happened???"

Author:	The Tyrant [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:
Synbad wrote: Well.. we could have been talking about Franklin and Deledio as well as Murphy and Kennedy....... Cant see how that wouldnt go well for the future... I mean who is really proud about 2004 today anyway??? Will anyone ever say..."How about that 2004!!! flower fantastic season we had.. gone are the times..." or "I remember 2004 ,... ace year!!! 10 wins and a percentage of around 60%...guns all over the park!!!.. what happened???" you know I agree

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:
The Tyrant wrote: Synbad wrote: Well.. we could have been talking about Franklin and Deledio as well as Murphy and Kennedy....... Cant see how that wouldnt go well for the future... I mean who is really proud about 2004 today anyway??? Will anyone ever say..."How about that 2004!!! flower fantastic season we had.. gone are the times..." or "I remember 2004 ,... ace year!!! 10 wins and a percentage of around 60%...guns all over the park!!!.. what happened???" you know I agree i do know....

Author:	molsey [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:
2004 Wins: Geelong (4th), Melbourne (5th), West Coast (7th), Essendon* (8th), Roos (10th), Adelaide (12th), Collingwood (13th, twice), Hawthorn (15th), Richmond (16th) Even if we hadn't have stolen some of those wins at the end of the season, we still would have missed the priority pick by a long way. Synbad, I know how you feel on this one, but do you give any value to the Club from having a positive end to 2004, given 2002, 2003 and our financial problems at the time? I take your point about whether anyone sees 2004 as positive anymore, but at the time just to win a few games felt good. Short sighted I know, but I wonder if 2004 helped us in non-draft picks terms?

Author:	Dukes [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:
I just want to apologise now for watching FOX Footy and enjoying our wins in every season except those where we didn't win the premiership. Gee, that 1999 season cost us so many good players who knows where we might be right now.

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:
molsey wrote: 2004 Wins: Geelong (4th), Melbourne (5th), West Coast (7th), Essendon* (8th), Roos (10th), Adelaide (12th), Collingwood (13th, twice), Hawthorn (15th), Richmond (16th) Even if we hadn't have stolen some of those wins at the end of the season, we still would have missed the priority pick by a long way. Synbad, I know how you feel on this one, but do you give any value to the Club from having a positive end to 2004, given 2002, 2003 and our financial problems at the time? I take your point about whether anyone sees 2004 as positive anymore, but at the time just to win a few games felt good. Short sighted I know, but I wonder if 2004 helped us in non-draft picks terms? molesy does a businessman start up a business in an elite end of town.. say the Paris end of Collins street by opening up a 2 dollar shop? Were in the most elite sporting competition in Australia.. and we were trying to turn the ship around while having a bare cupboard!!! Noone cares about 10 wins. I can guarantee you.. the impetus the club would have had by coming last and picking up Franklin and Deledio compared to what we did is chalk and cheese... The club must realise that if it ever wants to be elite again.. and get financial it must go out and stock up with the product people pay money for.... Its no good going to each AGM and having the club announce how we just wiped off another 500k from the debt each year... (but we have a side going nowhere)....because when the day comes that we announce were debt free.. we will be a nothing club and yesterdays fish n chips wrap up paper.... If we had a plan of youth and just kept plugging away at bringing gun kids in to go with the Walkers Murphys Waites etc.. and people can see were finding tomorrows stars they are patient. The problem is the club has no faith in us.. so is just wallpapering the cracks .. sooner or later theres nothing left to wallpaper... and it all falls over!!!.. all ebcause they dont want to be seen as a failure!!! Well so far theyre all failures!!!.. and that tenth makes no difference. they should look long term and understand their job is to suffer for a few years so the next lot that come in can have an easier job. They will be remembered for the platform... instead they want to be remembered for mediocrity!!! they should just face it.. there is only pain for a bit.. but while there is going to be pain ANYWAY.. do it properly!!! The rest is shortsightedness and it shits me!!!

Author:	verbs [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:
Who knows where we would be now if we had only won 5 games in 2004? With the injection of talent, we may have finished 13th in 2005, or 14th. We may have won one or two more games. Maybe not. It's impossible to tell. All there is is what was what back when.

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:
Yes i would... but i dont barrack for Collingwood or Brisbane i barrack for Carlton... And our short sightedness is killing us.. i dont care what other clubs do... One thing is for sure wed have a tighter ship with Buckley and Voss running the show than Kouta and Lance.. Some people can do it just because of what thyre like... Theyre both competitors.. We lack competitors.. Thats why we get thrashed alot!!!.. and they dont get thrashed as often... I think our percentage over 4 years makes us the most thrashable team for a long long time.... I put that down not to having a shit list.. which we clearly have.. but due to the lack of competitiveness and drive the team has.. and that comes from the main men.... Carlton is right down there with Fitzroy and Freos least competitive sides... Fitzroy because it was dying... and Freo because it has no culture.. Whats our excse??

Page 1 of 6	All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Synbad [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:
Id love to know..... Would people swap Lance and Kouta (to some our best 2 players).. for Deledio and Franklin????

Author:	TheGame [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:
Synbad wrote: Id love to know..... Would people swap Lance and Kouta (to some our best 2 players).. for Deledio and Franklin???? Would you swap Voss for Deledio? Buckley, Harvey? By the way I think Tambling will be better than those 2.

Author:	Dukes [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:
Synbad wrote: Id love to know..... Would people swap Lance and Kouta (to some our best 2 players).. for Deledio and Franklin???? How does winning games in 2004 correspond to a Lance and Kouta versus Deledio and Franklin argument. If these two players turn out to be as good as Lance and Kouta the Hawks and Tigers will be smiling. To get Deledio we would have had to win 7 less games. There were 3 teams with PPs in that year so we might have had picks 4 and 8, not just 1 and 4. Keep talking in hypotheticals, you're sounding more like a Saints or Cats fan every day. If only we hadn't won this game, or if only we' hadn't kicked that goal ... FFS just support the team and relaise we're now heading in the right direction after years of mismangement and suffering. West Coast didn't need the handout mentality ... they bottomed out, drafted Judd and Sampi and used their facilities, smart trading, rookies and other draft picks (Cousins, Kerr, Fletcher, etc weren't priority picks) to improve the rest of their list. PS I'll never apologise for wanting Carlton to win any game ... the sad ones are the ones fervently hoping we'll lose after round 12 every year.