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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:23 am 
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Harry Vallence
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the Age 17 March 2005: [url=http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2005/03/16/1110913664939.html]Carlton, Betts in cash fight
[/url]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:27 am 
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Harry Vallence
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would think that the club are right to be fighting this one- bit gready from Eddie IMO

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:13 am 
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Rod McGregor

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But so what? Maybe it is a bit cheeky, but that is what we love about him on the ground - an opportunistic crumber :lol:

The big thing is Carlton doesn't want to pay it and then be told by the AFL that he is not entitled to it, so put it under the salary cap. If the AFL rules in Eddie's favour, then they can't stick it to Carlton later. Good thinking, IMO :wink:

I can't think it will cause any problems with the player group. After all, as with any AFL club we have had a history of disputes between club and player - SOS, Fraser Brown, Kouta, and Big Red last year. When it is worked out, the other players treat them like nothing happened.

The only thing is you hope that we have learnt from the Elliott/Hamill fiasco that the club should contain its rhetoric. Once resolved, disputes with players fade away unless someone puts their foot in it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:16 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Legitimate claim by Eddie.
This allowance is provided to plenty of interstate players and Eddie had relocated back to WA prior to being invited to train and subsequently selected by Carlton. It's only 13 grand for Pete's sake. Considering the TPP is around $6M what's $13K!!! It's not a frivolous claim, The Age says the dispute is amicable, I surely hope so!!! :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:35 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Like it or lump it, we're a lefty-scum side, and should honour our contracts at all costs. If it means we can legally sling him a few extra $$, why not?

PAY THE MAN, CARLTON!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:30 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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How can you have a dispute that's amicable? Especially when money's invovled.

It's a private matter between the club and player and it annoys me when journo's publisce this sort of personal info. Imagine how they would feel if everytime they were in a dispute with their employer it was made public.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:34 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Just the journos trying to get a little bit of "trouble at Carlton" stuff back in the news.

Given the kid's so far from his family and home etc, it couldn't hurt. Either that or maybe they could offer a compromise by flying his mum in 5-6 times over the year. It could certainly prevent potential disgruntlement down the track.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:50 pm 
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Bob Chitty
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Set him free

If he comes back it's because he wants to otherwise he shouldn't be there in the first place.

A little niggler could upset a lot of people

WE dont need this... HE NEEDS CFC!!!

MOTLEY" Youve come to the best nest in the biggest tree in the yard" How lucky is he?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:18 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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who's his manager?

someone has put him up to it!

Clearly opportunistic.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:15 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Oppurtunistic but a worthwile query if he is on base a move like that would take a fair chunk of change from his pay. Cartlon is an employer and any other employer would offer re settlement packages.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:34 am 
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Laurie Kerr

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Quote:
Betts and his management claim that while the teenager was drafted from the Calder Cannons in the under-18 competition, he moved back to live with his mother in Kalgoorlie, WA, at the end of the 2004 season.


So he caught a plane back to Kalgoorlie to see mum for christmas. So what? Nice try Eddie.

NB How about doing something first before you put your hand out for more


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:33 am 
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Rod McGregor

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OK guys, let's cool it about this issue. I think it was a bit of mischievous reporting. The attempt was to make it appear that there is a rift, even though the sources referred to in the report insisted it was an amicable "dispute". There is every reason to think that it is just that. After all, if any of you asks for a pay rise, would you say that this is a dispute with your employer? Hardly. The only reason that the word "dispute" comes into it is that the machinery for the issue to be resolved is that a dispute equals a grievance, and a grievance is necessary to invoke the grievance procedure which leads to a quick determination by the AFL. The sides to the "grievance" are really Carlton's General Manager and Eddie's Manager. Eddie nor Pagan nor any of the other players will be involved in it, and it won't cause any problems among the team (unless we get sucked in to having a go at Eddie about it from the stands, or by making poison pen posts on these sites).

The expectation is that whoever wins or loses won't bear any sort of grudge. Carlton benefits by getting an independent determination, so that it can say to Eddie, "Bad luck young fella, but it was worth a try - it wasn't our decision". And if the decision goes in favour of Eddie, then Carlton can pay a further amount which will make Eddie happier and hopefully more productive, without being at risk of the AFL investigating the payment as an illegal overaward payment or insisting that it should be declared under the TPP. There are no losers in this. As stated above, the payment is a small fraction of the TPP anyway.

To understand the context of this "dispute", you have to look at the AFLPA's Collective Bargaining Agreement with the AFL. The relevant bits are as follows:
Quote:
9. PLAYERS UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE
In respect of a Player who is included on the List of an AFL Club before the Player attains the age of 18 years:
(a) the AFL Club which lists the Player shall:
    (i) contract the Player for a minimum of two years;
    (ii) where the Player moves interstate, provide economy class return airfare tickets for the parents (or two other relatives or persons nominated by the Player) of the Player for two separate occasions to enable those persons to visit the Player during the year of the Player’s first AFL Season; and
    (iii) pay reasonable taxi fares necessarily incurred by the Player in attending training, Matches and official AFL Club functions;
11.6 In calculation of the Total Player Payments, the following payments will not be taken into account:
    (a) relocation expenses incurred by an AFL Club in respect of an AFL Player pursuant to paragraph 8 of Schedule B;
    (b) the cost of air fares and taxi fares paid in accordance with clause 9.1(a)(ii);
    …
    (k) living expenses paid under paragraph 8.3 of Schedule B.
SCHEDULE B
2.1 An AFL Club shall pay each first year draft choice Player it employs in … 2005 ... the base payments and Senior Match payments per Senior Match set out in the following table:
    (Base Pay $38,100 plus match pay of $2,150 per game, plus bonuses of $2,000 for playing between 1 and 5 games, $2,000 for playing between 6 and 10 games, and $6,000 for playing more than 11 games).
2.4 A first year draft choice Player shall not be entitled to, nor shall an AFL Club, pay a first year Player more than the amounts prescribed by this paragraph 2, other than:
    (a) reasonable relocation expenses and living allowances as set out in paragraph 8 of Schedule B herein;
    (b) bereavement assistance of up to $2,000 per Player; and
    (c) any incentive bonus a Player receives for finishing in the top ten of the AFL Club’s best and fairest award.
8. Allowances
8.1 Relocation Expenses

    (a) A first year draft choice Player who is required to relocate as a result of inclusion on the List of an AFL Club ... shall be paid reasonable relocation costs by that AFL Club.
    (b) The amount payable under paragraph 8.1(a) shall be limited to:
    …
    (ii) $6,295 in 2005; …
    or such other higher amount as is reasonably determined by the AFL Investigations Manager per Player.
    (c) Any such relocation payments made pursuant to this paragraph 8.1 shall be excluded from the Total Player Payments of an AFL Club, provided the costs are considered by the AFL Investigations Manager to be reasonable bona fide relocation costs.

8.3 Living Allowance
    (a) Where a Player is required to relocate, an AFL Club may pay a living allowance to first year draft choice Players of no more than:
    …
    (ii) $6,295 in 2005 …
    per Player.
    (b) Any such payment will be excluded in the Total Player Payments of an AFL Club.

As you can see from the above, if he is to be treated as a Victorian recruit, the Club IS NOT PERMITTED to give him any of the following:
    (1) return economy tickets to his parents (or 2 other relatives) to visit Eddie on 2 occasions over the football year;
    (2) tickets, or money to buy those tickets, to Eddie to allow him to visit his family in WA.

I think that Carlton would dearly love to be able to do the above, irrespective of whether he is classed as a Victorian or Interstate recruit. He is an aboriginal player, and only those close to him know how steeped in the aboriginal culture he is. I would guess, however, that being from WA he has strong cultural and family links to his home, and is likely to be more homesick than the average non-aboriginal recruit. We don't want to be in a position where, at the end of this year or the next, he demands to be traded to West Coast or Fremantle who would be overjoyed to take him off us given great onfield performances this year. If he is able to visit his family and have them visit him through this year, without it coming out of his base pay, that would strengthen his bond to Carlton.

If Carlton does slip him some tickets without him being declared an interstate recruit, this would be a breach of the rules, whether or not they are declared under the TPP and whether or not they would take us over the salary cap. If caught doing this, we could be sanctioned again.

So, in my view, Carlton would benefit out of him receiving the $6,295 amount for relocation expenses under cl 8.1 and the economy tickets.

On the other hand, the additional amount of up $6,295 for living expenses pursuant to cl 8.3 would be a bit over the top. That clause reads like it is a discretionary amount which the club may pay, but is not required to pay. It also seems that a lesser amount can be paid. The grievance procedure would result in a determination of what amount (if any) is appropriate. If the determination is that he shouldn't get anything as he has relatives here with whom he can stay with (and he has previously done so), then you would expect Eddie to take this on the chin without any fuss. This part of the claim seems to be in the nature of an ambit claim anyway.

So, don't have a go at Eddie because his manager has made this claim. Instead, wish like crazy that he gets the relocation expense, so that he will stay in Motley's nest. :wink:


Last edited by Mav on Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:37 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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what 'e said

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:56 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Hey Mav,

thanks mate, that explains it.

Nothing like quoting the statute to get us over the hurdle!

Cheers

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:17 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Good stuff Mav, that's it put to bed for mine.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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We are talking about an extra $12500 on top of his base payments. That is not an inconsiderable amount of money to argue over. If the club didnt worry about $12500 and you extrapolate that out over the whole list that is over $500,000. People forget that most clubs dont even make that much money per year. Some of the clubs take that as a cut to their TPP just to survive! It is the difference between paying an unproven coach $250k and Pagan .
Yes I can hear people arguing that it is peanuts compared to what the others are being paid- fair enough, but those players have at some point in time put the runs on the board in senior AFL football and therefore demanded that figure. It is the clubs choice whether to pay it or not.

Why should Eddie get the extra money when none of the other first year players do? Because he is Aboriginal? Give me a break.

He played for 3 years in Victoria. He was in the draft (you dont nominate for the draft if you are quitting football and heading back home) therefore he did not relocate home. Anyone who says he did is not looking at the facts(would you relocate home to WA just before nominating for the draft?) He has tried it on and got caught. Simple as that. Rather than concentrating on his footy he is looking for loop holes.
For those of you in the Eddie Betts fan club ask yourself if it was Steve Kenna trying to rort the system would you be just as happy to pay him?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:50 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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In fairness to Eddie I reckon it's his manager trying to do the best he can for his client, not some evil plot by Eddie to get more money.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:10 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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Quote:
In fairness to Eddie I reckon it's his manager trying to do the best he can for his client, not some evil plot by Eddie to get more money.


Fair point, but he must be acting under some sort of instructions so Eddie has played some sort of part in this


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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If I thought there was any possible way I could bilk my employer for $12k, fairly... I'd do it.

If he's not living with his parents in Melbourne, then doesn't he deserve the money? He's bloody young, you know. I think he should probably get it, and its not selfish of him to ask........ no way, Jose.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:41 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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therubbernub wrote:
Why should Eddie get the extra money when none of the other first year players do? Because he is Aboriginal? Give me a break.

But Jordan Russell, and Adam Hartlett are each definitely getting the $6,295 relocation allowance and may also be receiving some or all of the $6,295 living allowance :wink:. And they used to live in Adelaide. A return trip to Adelaide costs a fraction of one to Perth (leaving aside the trip from Perth to where Eddie's parents are living). Wouldn't you be a bit annoyed if you were Eddie that he doesn't at least get the same rights to visits from and to his parents? (And let's leave aside Anthony Raso who gets the same base pay as Eddie even though he can't be required to attend training or play any games for the Bullants in the VFL :shock:).

After all, the issue of where he was living during the football year before the draft is in many ways a mere technicality, especially regarding the issue of the cost of air travel. Why shouldn't it depend on where his immediate family lives? If the rules operate unfairly, then it is Carlton that is being opportunistic in relying on them rather than Eddie. And the issue of this sort of travel should be kept separate from the further payment for living expenses that is unlikely to be granted to him anyway as he may well have a place to stay already.

If we work within the confines of the technicality, then do we know, for example, whether he was returning to WA when TAC football finished? If so, I would think this is enough to say that he still was domiciled in Western Australia. You might say that the TAC wouldn't have paid for this cost. But merely because the TAC system couldn't afford to pay for tickets and the like doesn't justify the AFL system refusing to pay when there are the funds to so.

And I think there should be some attempt to be more flexible with aboriginal players. There are those aboriginal players who are as "ocker" as anyone else. Justin Murphy perhaps is the best example of an aboriginal player who is perfectly at home in suburban Melbourne and indeed may be a fish out of water if he left it. Perhaps Adrian McAdam is the best example of a player who struggled to come to terms with life in Melbourne. Sean Charles, Nicky Winmar, and the Wiz too. The teams like Essendon* that have accepted the need to be sensitive to the needs of aboriginal players have been repaid tenfold for their efforts. Michael Long is doing a great job being a father-figure and example to these talented youngsters, and he certainly is not an advocate of treating aboriginal recruits exactly like non-aboriginal recruits.


Last edited by Mav on Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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