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Thoughts on CFC struggles
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Author:  Wolfe [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on CFC struggles
Was thinkin this morning why the Lions / Saints / WB have emerged in the last couple of years and are showing success well the Lions have had enormous success but we see players holding together players wanting to stay for less $$$. This year players at the Saints have knocked back lots of $$$ ... Lions over there 3 in row premiership stayed together and still are semi united though understanding in also rebuilding.

So in the past 10 years why have the Blues have gone in the opposite direction to where we see them now.. We have all discussed on numerous occasions about decisons of the board in finaces / salary / Recruiting ect but i believe another big factor is the Blues past succes.

Clubs like the Saints / WB / Sydney / even Lions before there 3 Flags have all come from very lean times well saints and WB even more so having had very little success in the last 4 decades and have always been near the bottom rungs. Even Brissie struggled for many years before finally finding there formula for success. The One thing i do know this has made these teams a lot more united and have made players work with the clubs and a team to get to the top they know all the bad times and i am sure this is great motivation to find future success to the club they play for.

The Blues on the other hand have had success in general over th last 3 decades even to the point where all the issues came in. We could stand up to the AFL ... run our own agenda ..buy players at will. The Blues where successful in almost every way except when the shit hit the fan. The blues prob more so have been a victum of our past and when you have the previous admin the older senior players all believeing that the Blues could never fall from grace that no matter what we would always be up in finals teritory or not far away it prob has been a major factor in a lot of senior players who have been at the club when sucess was just accpeted. Very easy to belive that when everyone form the president to the club officals and older players even supporters believe that we could never go into a such a lean period... So i believe that a lot of the player issues the Blues have had come from this culture / era which has caused a lot of the Senior player disenchantment. This dosnt excuse players like Campo who have no idea of the CFC plight still live in a fantasy of being one of the last Premiership players and shown how true they are in being selfish.. With the new generation of the Blues coming in hopefully they will adopt the new belief that the team in its low times and high times has to always work and build to be successful. A lot of the new players will have tasted the low times and how it feels to be bottom and have to create use this as motivation to build to there own success. This is why the Campos and some of the other disenchanted players must be removed for the club to go forwards.

Really the last player of that era is Kouta and i dont think he can be put in the campo bucket in selfishness as he would have personal understanding of the low times with 3 years of very little football from major injury. dosnt excuse his large salary but by end of 2006 that will be the last we see of the excessivness of the JE era when everything was just expected and salaries where almost given not earnt.

This next era of the Blues will at least understand how it feels to be down at the bottom and will know they have to work hard to get success. The new players will have been given a taste of defeat and i hope those players who come together in the future share and enjoy when the Blues also have a taste of success because those players who are there to enjoy the better future will be the ones who stuck it out in the lean times.
Author:  GWS [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:14 am ]
Post subject: 
It's the arrogance that got us in the end.

It's a great asset if you use it to believe you can perform miracles on the field (see Kouta with one hand, Williams in traffic or Jesaulenko in the air) but when you allow it to take over your club off-field you're asking for it.

Pride/fall - all that shit...
Author:  Orangewhip [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Furthermore, Carlton's history has resulted in double the mud being slung once the club started to slip. Interpretatations of the dramas at the Blues have been on a rollercoaster because it has been really exciting for those who don't support Carlton, to see Carlton stumble. The Elliot mindset started the rot and once we were rotting, it was ring-a-rosy with army boots around the Blues: some of it justified, some of it definitely not.
Author:  The Tyrant [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Voodoo curse
Author:  Laserkid [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think the answer is more complex.
If you look at the ladder right now, the four great traditional VFL clubs, Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon* and Richmond al all in the bottom half of the table, if not the bottom itself. I do not think this is co-incidence.
I think that in the move from VFL to AFL, the larger, more successful clubs found it impossible to modernise themselves, to reinvent themselves and to rebrand themselves. Their historical success had become a burden to themselves.
The unsuccessful VLF clubs like St Kilda, Hawthorn, North Melbourne and Footscray had been used to reinventing themselves every couple of years simply to survive. To use modern terminology, they were used to change management which was totally foreign to the Carltons and Collingwoods. Similarly the intestate clubs have started from scratch using modern methodologies. And one again, they are doing very well in the AFL (forget Freo).

The Carlton brand is old, tired and tarnished. There are no simple answers to fix it, just getting back to basics and hard work. A new, clear message has to be defined (the Corporate Mission Statement), all personnel united (feeling part of the mission) and it must be sellable and succesfully sold to members and prospective members.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dont think the players are any different to the rest of us. :?
They value job satisfaction like the rest of the community.
The reason Kosi and Power and Voss and hundreds of other players stay put is job satisfaction.
They sacrifice extra dollars to stay in an environment that they enjoy and want to be a part of.

Thats the same reason why Carlton are paying over the odds to retain our players.
We can fool ourselves and think its about lack of success etc.
THats only a small part of the equation.

Go down to training a few times and listen to how Elshaugh speaks to the players.
He does most of Pagans dirty work on the track and the mans a pig.
If your boss spoke to you how he does to the players you'd drop him.
Times have changed and the successful coaches are the ones that create a team environment.
Its no different to your workplace.
Success comes from everyone working toward a common objective.
If you involve the workers and make them feel valued, they will make sacrifices to obtain success for the team.
If you smack them over the head with a big stick, they will be their for the money only.

Have no doubt, from day 1 Pagan had the big stick out.
He has mellowed slightly but he knows no other way.
He is rapidly becoming a dinosaur unless he changes big time.

Ask yourself why Ratten isnt helping the midfielders or McKay isnt helping the backmen or why Ross Lyon left to become the right hand man to the 2005 premiership coach.

Our players are there because it is a job.
They are there because they are hoping something will change for the better.
Its got nothing to do with culture or greed.

The players want the future and at the moment, we are giving them the past.
Author:  dannyboy [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
wow BV that's some statement there. So you thnk we must get rid of Pagan - he won't change at this stage - before things change?

But that's another two years away (minimum)!

See I think it is npot one thing but lots - all of which have been mentioned. But mainly we are in a serious trough that we must work out of. It will take time.
Author:  CarltonClem [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm starting to get more critical of Denis now, it's not his game plan as such, it's his unwillingness to get rid of personnel when needed and I mean personnel who he may have worked with for years.

I'm not sure what happened after the Wizard Cup but something certainly happened - it was an aberration of sorts, but certainly people skills have been questioned greatly in the last little while from allegedly Smorgon to now Elshaug.

If Denis is that inflexible, then that's not a good sign, a good leader is flexible to some extent. Of course there are some things that a good leader will stand his [sic] ground on, but there are various flexibilities that must be followed.

It's hard to judge without knowing a coach personally or playing under him. In terms of overall strategy, I don't think there's little wrong with direct corridor footy - it's certainly better than chip-chip along the wings - but in terms of management, I'm starting to demand results and Denis has 2006 to get them otherwise I'm going to be quite angry.
Author:  therubbernub [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sone of the replies also illustrate the problem. Once again there is a non acceptance that the football world has changed ie it now takes time to rebuild and form a premiership challenging outfit. Yes the last 4 years feels like an eternity, but in reality it is a very short time for overall player list development. Suggestions that it is Pagans fault or Elshaugs fault or anybody elses fault is to imply that there is an easy solution, that with the mere sacking of a coach/coaches we will be back on track. Nice to think that way because then we can delude ourselves that we are not far away whereas in reality we are miles away.
Whilst everyone is all too ready to jump on the sack so and so bandwagon we are going nowhere. We need to wake up and realise that we need time and opportunity to regain our former status. Now I am not saying that there are not changes that could/should be made to the non player personelle, what I am saying is that to simplify the problem down to a sack such and such is to continue to delude ourselves that the problem is small
Author:  Blue Vain [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
You're probably right.
It's probably a non acceptance of the complexities of the issues by deluded supporters.
Lets all be blissfully ignorant instead, its far easier.
Author:  Jarusa [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
As supporters and members we have a duty to the club to keep those in the football department, the administration and the playing group on notice at all times.

As supporters I think we took our eye off the ball during the Elliot years and let the things that should have been ringing alarm bells for all of us go on for too long. That was complacency.

Now I hope we do keep a critical eye on all aspects of how the club is run. However, hopefully we do not swing the pendulum too far and throw any babies out with any bathwater (enough cliches? :lol: ). I think the feelings we have all seen building up in the supporter base over the last few months are understandable and just from being an observer I reckon as a whole the Carlton membership are questioning all aspects of the club in a mature and resonable manner.

We need a strange mix of patience and healthy critical thinking from the supporter base at the moment, historically this mix has be a powder keg at other clubs. Typically those clubs who have been less successful have let situations such as we are experiencing at the moment tear them apart.

It is very difficult because it is an emotional game, but we have to get the mix right for the good of the club.
Author:  keogh [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
The next 3 years are really important.the transition phase starts now.Winning 10 games in 2004 was probably not that healthy for the club as far as the long term picture is concerned.


Lets hope the club can pick up on and off the field.The past was oh so different and things must be done differently.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Points very well made Jarusa.
It worries me that many great Carlton people have removed themselves from the club in the past 3 years and the exodus hasnt completed.
We need to constantly review and question where we are going because the cost is higher than its ever been.
Author:  lucablue [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm not sure we should all get to get hung up on the views of BV re: pagan's supposed shortfalls. I mean, why should we be placing his interpretations of our current situation over those of a 2 time AFL premiership coach.

Sure, everying has an opinion, but PLEASE - don't get carried away with the views of a supposed learned observer/supporter. I'm happy to "stick fat" with Pagan - his credibility carries significantly more weight than that of those supporters getting sick of our current dire plight! He's in for the long haul! That I have no doubt.
Author:  Speakers [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Look, we made 2 monumental fuckk ups.

1. We cheated the cap way too much and finally got caught with our fingers well and truly stuck in the honey pot; and

2. We didn't realise Rice, Spalding, Hogg, Clape etc were the exception to the rule and continued to trade draft picks for rejects.

These two factors have set us back 5 years at least.

My concern is we might be in the middle of another major fuckk up - having a coach who's people management skills and game plan are outdated and inflexible.

Stephen Silvagni may yet live up to his nickname.
Author:  billy_bongo [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Blue Vain wrote:
Dont think the players are any different to the rest of us. :?
They value job satisfaction like the rest of the community.
The reason Kosi and Power and Voss and hundreds of other players stay put is job satisfaction.
They sacrifice extra dollars to stay in an environment that they enjoy and want to be a part of.

Thats the same reason why Carlton are paying over the odds to retain our players.
We can fool ourselves and think its about lack of success etc.
THats only a small part of the equation.

Go down to training a few times and listen to how Elshaugh speaks to the players.
He does most of Pagans dirty work on the track and the mans a pig.
If your boss spoke to you how he does to the players you'd drop him.
Times have changed and the successful coaches are the ones that create a team environment.
Its no different to your workplace.
Success comes from everyone working toward a common objective.
If you involve the workers and make them feel valued, they will make sacrifices to obtain success for the team.
If you smack them over the head with a big stick, they will be their for the money only.

Have no doubt, from day 1 Pagan had the big stick out.
He has mellowed slightly but he knows no other way.
He is rapidly becoming a dinosaur unless he changes big time.

Ask yourself why Ratten isnt helping the midfielders or McKay isnt helping the backmen or why Ross Lyon left to become the right hand man to the 2005 premiership coach.

Our players are there because it is a job.
They are there because they are hoping something will change for the better.
Its got nothing to do with culture or greed.

The players want the future and at the moment, we are giving them the past.


This is the best post I've read for over two years. Better the bullshit and bluster we're used to getting from some quarters.

Welcome back, BV...
Author:  Blue Vain [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:42 am ]
Post subject: 
lucablue wrote:
his credibility carries significantly more weight than that of those supporters getting sick of our current dire plight! He's in for the long haul! That I have no doubt.


Yes, youre right.
How dare I ask questions.
Make room in the sheep pen, I'm jumping in with you.
Author:  Synbad [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Denis could have been justified with the long stick approach for as long as he was prepared to move out players who refused to conform to his philosophies.
Unfortunately for Denis he is in my opinion attempting to protect his coaching record.
He had the opportunity to move on a couple of more players who do not relish his approach to football.. which means that they rub off on the younger players .

Were in for some more real turbulant times because i cannot see how keeping Lance will be a marriage made in heaven with Denis.

Stupidly he even tried to keep Camporeale at the club when Campo is a bludger and does not know the meaning of "heart and perseverence"
I agree with BV,. Elshaugh had to go.. he is a shithouse coach...and a hard person to relate to.
Author:  Chitty's Finger [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
So someone who disagrees with you Synbad is a dinosaur. What ajoke - youdon't know anything about coaching a football team, you're just an avid fan who feels close to them.
Author:  titimus [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eh..

I don't think that this:

Synbad wrote:
Denis could have been justified with the long stick approach for as long as he was prepared to move out players who refused to conform to his philosophies.
Unfortunately for Denis he is in my opinion attempting to protect his coaching record.
He had the opportunity to move on a couple of more players who do not relish his approach to football.. which means that they rub off on the younger players .

Were in for some more real turbulant times because i cannot see how keeping Lance will be a marriage made in heaven with Denis.

Stupidly he even tried to keep Camporeale at the club when Campo is a bludger and does not know the meaning of "heart and perseverence"
I agree with BV,. Elshaugh had to go.. he is a shithouse coach...and a hard person to relate to.


Warranted that:

athorn the wonderkid wrote:
So someone who disagrees with you Synbad is a dinosaur. What ajoke - youdon't know anything about coaching a football team, you're just an avid fan who feels close to them.
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