Talking Carlton Index Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington CFC Home CFC Membership CFC Shop CFC Fixture Blueseum
It is currently Sun May 19, 2024 7:07 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 9:37 am 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2535
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 9:47 am 
Offline
Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Australia
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.


Cottrell was playing wing wasn’t he?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 10:19 am 
Offline
Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 4565
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.

I understand why our fans are frustrated however it is worth remembering that West Coast won the 2018 flag with a predictable 'bomb it long' game plan with a strong reliance of Kennedy and Darling. They didn't have quick skillful midfielders either (remember Gaff was suspended for the finals) and they depended heavily on the clearance work of Shuey, Yeo, Sheed etc.
Could we emulate the the West Coast 2018 side?
If not then why?

_________________
In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 10:31 am 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2535
sinbagger wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.


Cottrell was playing wing wasn’t he?


Is a HF isn’t he?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 10:36 am 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20416
Location: North of the border
kingkerna wrote:
Harry played a great game, won't hang him on that moment. Ran 14kms, that's crazy for a tall forward.



If you go back and watch the vision the commentators were saying he should have driven the ball deeper

when you pause the vision Charlie had made a lead to the pocket and was well and truly covered
Collingwood had the deepest player so a long bomb to the top of the goals square would have been an uncontested mark. He kicked it to an area where there was 4 Carlton players to 3 Collingwood players heading to that spot.
If he kicks it 1-2 meters to the right Durdin impacts the contest and the ball spills to Cotrell running in from opposite wing
If he kicks 2-3 meters to the left Cotrell takes an uncontested mark 40 out from goal.

If anything he miss hit it and kicked it to deep

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 11:12 am 
Offline
Geoff Southby
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 5046
Humpers wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.

I understand why our fans are frustrated however it is worth remembering that West Coast won the 2018 flag with a predictable 'bomb it long' game plan with a strong reliance of Kennedy and Darling. They didn't have quick skillful midfielders either (remember Gaff was suspended for the finals) and they depended heavily on the clearance work of Shuey, Yeo, Sheed etc.
Could we emulate the the West Coast 2018 side?
If not then why?



ohh boy. where do we begin. the game has evolved since then, what worked 6 years ago won't work now. that way of playing, slow and bomb it long is what we've been mostly doing when we go ultra tall. and we've not been successful bcos coaches figured that out long ago, and that paved the way for the full ground pressure and speed and run n carry to twist defences out of shape.

transition and turnover game beats stoppage and contested game. and since the eagles in 2018, all the data and stats back that up. (on a sidenote i'd love to know what the turnover numbers and scoring from turnover for & against for the 2018 eagles. )

the afl right now is speed kills and pressure is king. everything comes from that.

the way the cats send someone from their forwadline to goal side of the stoppage, cause the turnover from the extra player, and rebound hard, and we're playing so high, they just needed to march forward until they could kick it out the back to where that extra number (for them) was.

that's the exact blueprint that diffuses our gameplan (the way the eagles were in 2018)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 12:14 pm 
Online
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2508
FWIW, a genuine Collingwood insider told me that Darcy Moore was surprised at how we mucked around with the ball rather than bang it in fast to Charlie and Harry (which he implied is what they would do if they had key forwards of that calibre).
Says we are a very very good team.
IMO, I think the bigger problem is what happens on the ground when we do get it in to the big boys - when we play well, our forwards keep the ball in and get repeat shots.
I think the turnover thing is interesting but overemphasised by the Champion Data mob. I think you can win another way. If we dominate clearance we need to tidy up our forward handball and delivery I50. And we need to apply more pressure I50.
Maybe that is a personnel thing incl a trade off with the 2 rucks but I don’t think we are as far off it as some are making out.
Jeremy Cameron couldn’t miss against us. TDK misses 3 and Durdin and Owies miss sitters against the Cats. And our defensive game was absent.
This week, we had several opportunities to win, notwithstanding their dominance in the last quarter.
And our tackling pressure was Shiite.
This is very fixable. Martin and McGovern will make a huge difference. As will Fogarty when he comes back in.
Good luck to May and Lever stopping Charlie, Harry, Martin and TDK!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 1:32 pm 
Offline
Geoff Southby
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 5046
ˆˆ i'm not sure we can apply the pressure to lock the ball in (for 4 quarters) with the tall team?? even the gws win, we dipped to 145 pressure rating in the 2nd qtr

don't forget... we're not dominating stoppage and clearance either. we're the 16th ranked team from conceding from stoppage.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 2:27 pm 
Offline
Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Australia
DesEnglish wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.


Cottrell was playing wing wasn’t he?


Is a HF isn’t he?


Normally yes, but I have a feeling he was playing wing to replace Ollie.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 3:16 pm 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20416
Location: North of the border
Braithy wrote:
ˆˆ i'm not sure we can apply the pressure to lock the ball in (for 4 quarters) with the tall team?? even the gws win, we dipped to 145 pressure rating in the 2nd qtr

don't forget... we're not dominating stoppage and clearance either. we're the 16th ranked team from conceding from stoppage.


It has bugger all to do with the size of the player - It is who the player is and the effort they put into tackling and pressure
Cripps 8 games 45 tackles
Hewitt 8 games 42 tackles
TDK 8 games 30 tackles 3rd
Acres 8 games 29 tackles
Harry 8 games 28 tackles = 5th with Newman
O Hollands 7 games 21 tackles
E hollands 6 games 14 tackles
Owies 8 games 15 tackles
Fog 4 games 19 tackles
Orazio 7 games 9 tackles
Carrol 7 games 9 tackles
Cunners 3 games 10 tackles
Charlie 8 games 8 tackles
Durdin 7 games 15 tackles
Weiters 6 games 16 tackles
Young 5 games 2 tackles
Gov 5 games 10 tackles

Its the cattle you have on the park and the effort they are prepared to put in not the size of the cattle

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 4:49 pm 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2535
sinbagger wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
5 player kicked goals for us. No mids, no HBF, no wings.

You can’t expect to beat top sides with an over reliance on so few.


Cottrell was playing wing wasn’t he?


Is a HF isn’t he?


Normally yes, but I have a feeling he was playing wing to replace Ollie.


Did he? Ok, I stand corrected.

Doesn’t alter my point, we need a better spread of goalkickers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 5:33 pm 
Offline
Geoff Southby
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 5046
Sydney Blue wrote:
Braithy wrote:
ˆˆ i'm not sure we can apply the pressure to lock the ball in (for 4 quarters) with the tall team?? even the gws win, we dipped to 145 pressure rating in the 2nd qtr

don't forget... we're not dominating stoppage and clearance either. we're the 16th ranked team from conceding from stoppage.


It has bugger all to do with the size of the player - It is who the player is and the effort they put into tackling and pressure
Cripps 8 games 45 tackles
Hewitt 8 games 42 tackles
TDK 8 games 30 tackles 3rd
Acres 8 games 29 tackles
Harry 8 games 28 tackles = 5th with Newman
O Hollands 7 games 21 tackles
E hollands 6 games 14 tackles
Owies 8 games 15 tackles
Fog 4 games 19 tackles
Orazio 7 games 9 tackles
Carrol 7 games 9 tackles
Cunners 3 games 10 tackles
Charlie 8 games 8 tackles
Durdin 7 games 15 tackles
Weiters 6 games 16 tackles
Young 5 games 2 tackles
Gov 5 games 10 tackles

Its the cattle you have on the park and the effort they are prepared to put in not the size of the cattle


it's more than just effort. theres also your ability to tackle. pace, quickness, lateral agility, read the play etc

tackling although it was poor against the pies, has been generally good. it's pressure and swarming and covering the ground and creating turnover that has suffered since we went tall.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 7:53 pm 
Offline
Stephen Silvagni
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 29915
Location: riding shotgun on Agros Karma Train
Braithy wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Braithy wrote:
ˆˆ i'm not sure we can apply the pressure to lock the ball in (for 4 quarters) with the tall team?? even the gws win, we dipped to 145 pressure rating in the 2nd qtr

don't forget... we're not dominating stoppage and clearance either. we're the 16th ranked team from conceding from stoppage.


It has bugger all to do with the size of the player - It is who the player is and the effort they put into tackling and pressure
Cripps 8 games 45 tackles
Hewitt 8 games 42 tackles
TDK 8 games 30 tackles 3rd
Acres 8 games 29 tackles
Harry 8 games 28 tackles = 5th with Newman
O Hollands 7 games 21 tackles
E hollands 6 games 14 tackles
Owies 8 games 15 tackles
Fog 4 games 19 tackles
Orazio 7 games 9 tackles
Carrol 7 games 9 tackles
Cunners 3 games 10 tackles
Charlie 8 games 8 tackles
Durdin 7 games 15 tackles
Weiters 6 games 16 tackles
Young 5 games 2 tackles
Gov 5 games 10 tackles

Its the cattle you have on the park and the effort they are prepared to put in not the size of the cattle


it's more than just effort. theres also your ability to tackle. pace, quickness, lateral agility, read the play etc

tackling although it was poor against the pies, has been generally good. it's pressure and swarming and covering the ground and creating turnover that has suffered since we went tall.

Like against the Giants eh?

_________________
Between our dreams and actions lies this world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 8:32 pm 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2213
Location: dudley!!!
now these pricks get their injuries.....

_________________
my last one was rubbish


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 9:18 pm 
Offline
Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17583
Sydney Blue wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
Harry played a great game, won't hang him on that moment. Ran 14kms, that's crazy for a tall forward.



If you go back and watch the vision the commentators were saying he should have driven the ball deeper

when you pause the vision Charlie had made a lead to the pocket and was well and truly covered


I don't have to pause the vision, I was there. Harry had the 2nd best contested mark in the AFL down the line 30m out from goal, 1 out with his opponent. Kicking to him was the correct play. If he didn't mark it, a stoppage or boundary line play would have been the option. We could set up and lock it in our front half. You can try to tart it up as much as you want but Harry took the wrong option. He turned it over and Collingwood took it up the other end and won the game.
That's not blaming him for the loss because plenty of other players made mistakes but let's not try to sugar coat his kick with bullshit. It was an error. Shit happens unfortunately. It's all a learning curve and he and the other players will hopefully make better decisions next time.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2024 10:00 pm 
Offline
Geoff Southby
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 5046
kingkerna wrote:
Braithy wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Braithy wrote:
ˆˆ i'm not sure we can apply the pressure to lock the ball in (for 4 quarters) with the tall team?? even the gws win, we dipped to 145 pressure rating in the 2nd qtr

don't forget... we're not dominating stoppage and clearance either. we're the 16th ranked team from conceding from stoppage.


It has bugger all to do with the size of the player - It is who the player is and the effort they put into tackling and pressure
Cripps 8 games 45 tackles
Hewitt 8 games 42 tackles
TDK 8 games 30 tackles 3rd
Acres 8 games 29 tackles
Harry 8 games 28 tackles = 5th with Newman
O Hollands 7 games 21 tackles
E hollands 6 games 14 tackles
Owies 8 games 15 tackles
Fog 4 games 19 tackles
Orazio 7 games 9 tackles
Carrol 7 games 9 tackles
Cunners 3 games 10 tackles
Charlie 8 games 8 tackles
Durdin 7 games 15 tackles
Weiters 6 games 16 tackles
Young 5 games 2 tackles
Gov 5 games 10 tackles

Its the cattle you have on the park and the effort they are prepared to put in not the size of the cattle


it's more than just effort. theres also your ability to tackle. pace, quickness, lateral agility, read the play etc

tackling although it was poor against the pies, has been generally good. it's pressure and swarming and covering the ground and creating turnover that has suffered since we went tall.

Like against the Giants eh?


2nd quarter Vs the giants our tackle pressure was 145.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2024 8:29 am 
Offline
Stephen Silvagni
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:39 am
Posts: 29915
Location: riding shotgun on Agros Karma Train
So which ruck do you go with?

_________________
Between our dreams and actions lies this world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2024 10:11 am 
Offline
Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Australia
EarlsCourt11 wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
Braithy wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
I think the 2 ruck thing is overblown a lot.
Is it the 2 rucks or is it that we introduced 2 rucks at the same time we lost Gov Cerra Saad and Fogarty

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk





i wish i could be this hopeful & optimistic. we all agree footy is about winning. not how it looks, and individual stats or any other parameter. just winning.

our record with two rucks over last season and this is:

regular season 2023 lost 9 won 1 - won two finals.

and this season we've lost 3 of the last 4 with two rucks. melbourne abandoned the whole thing and they had no semblance of a forward line, and gawn is a much better forward than tdk. and grundy a much better ruck than pittonet. and they scrapped the idea. bcos. it. just. doesn't. work.



what we all skip over is the bit about how much harder the rest of the team has to work & run when you start the game down one runner in favour for a tall. we've completely stopped running out games. pies ran us off our feet after quarter time. crows rebounded all game long and put pace on the ball and we couldn't keep up, and the cats suffocated (and then spread) the immediate area around the stoppage after we'd won it and shut down our options bcos we couldn't chase for 2 hours.

and that's not even getting into BV's excellent piece about the stoppage game relies on individual performance, over a turnover game which is a team system where everyone plays a role. the turnover game wins premierships, and the stoppage game doesn't.

pies play the latter and really if we're all honest here, they should have won by 4-5 goals. cats should have too, if not for that late burst of goals we scored bcos they were down a midfield rotation (danger) and fell away in the last half of the 4th.


Didn’t the pies have two rucks in Cox and Cameron?


Both of those players go forward and play it reasonably well. When one of them is forward, there are only two talls up there (Mihocek + Cox/Cameron).

When we do it, it's Charlie, Harry, TDK. Have you ever seen Pittonet go forward? Lol.

Combine that with Fantasia, Durdin and Owies doing 2 fifths of @#$%&! all and it doesn't work. We are way too slow.

And if we're not winning centre clearance to utiilse the 1 on 1's then we're nowhere, which is where we're at at the moment.


Cox and Cameron have kicked seven goals five points between them in 2024 from sixteen games total.

TDK and Pittonet have kicked seven goals ten points between them in 2024 from 12 games total.

The stats don’t back up your opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2024 4:17 pm 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20416
Location: North of the border
Blue Vain wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
Harry played a great game, won't hang him on that moment. Ran 14kms, that's crazy for a tall forward.



If you go back and watch the vision the commentators were saying he should have driven the ball deeper

when you pause the vision Charlie had made a lead to the pocket and was well and truly covered


I don't have to pause the vision, I was there. Harry had the 2nd best contested mark in the AFL down the line 30m out from goal, 1 out with his opponent. Kicking to him was the correct play. If he didn't mark it, a stoppage or boundary line play would have been the option. We could set up and lock it in our front half. You can try to tart it up as much as you want but Harry took the wrong option. He turned it over and Collingwood took it up the other end and won the game.
That's not blaming him for the loss because plenty of other players made mistakes but let's not try to sugar coat his kick with bullshit. It was an error. Shit happens unfortunately. It's all a learning curve and he and the other players will hopefully make better decisions next time.
He took the right option he just executed wrong. If he hit it right either Durdin or Cotrell would have been lining up 35 metres out directly in front

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2024 4:47 pm 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20416
Location: North of the border
Right idea poor execution
Curnow covered
Bomb to top of square covered
Durdin in front of his man
E Holland's in front of his man
Cotrell and one other totally free.
Walsh free to his right but he would have needed eyes in the back of his head to see him.

It was a shit kick. If he executed like Curnow did a minute or so early it's game overImage

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group