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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:01 pm 
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John James
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Navy One wrote:
6 goals on the smallest ground out there ....... Is this mob for real


We kicked three of them early in the first then Sydney said 'we can do that too', just like Collingwood's quick dismissal of us last week, and we had nothing else up our sleeves...again.

Sorry for stating the obvious...maybe the club will read it.

I was angry as hell after last year's last round but I'm just slowly and quietly tuning out now, along with quite a few others it seems.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:24 pm 
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John James
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GreatEx wrote:
club29 wrote:
The players have seen off countless coaches (assistants included). Our problem isnt the coaches it is the list managers. We don't have enough talent spread across the team.
Even our good players lack the ability to be super fit, elite runners, skilled in kicking, skilled in decision making, follow a plan, gain confidence, stay confident and have the want to win.
We bring in the wrong players.

The coaches do get caught up coaching around these deficiencies in the list. Playing the hand they are dealt. But I wouldn't be changing coaches without doing a massive list redesign.


Yeah, the way we start great then slowly (then rapidly) fall apart under every coach is a tell-tale sign - tickets for the Teague Train, anyone? - I can't think of another club that does it with as much gusto as our boys, and it tells me that the problem is one of leadership and standards within the playing group. I reckon our boys try, and are professional enough, but also that they subconsciously think it's enough to be those things, that they are content to be part of some nebulous "process", that after the novelty of change has worn off they don't have the drive to push on. I don't see any anger, any determination that winning games is the be all and end all, and this feeling is borne out by the way we suck new arrivals down to our level... Saad, an excitement machine, now increasingly vanilla... Hewett, from a great club culture, looked mint for half a season, now blunt and anonymous... Acres, a few games where he seemed to have a wing nailed down, now a calamity... and we call for the likes of LOB,JSOS, TDK and Dow to be recycled yet again, and maybe they tinker at the edges a bit but none of them are winners, none of them can invigorate an apathetic group. This is why I'd be open to trading anyone and everyone on the list, and be actively looking to shift anyone who's been here 5+ years, it's not because they're all rubbish, it's because they're too accustomed to a "close enough is good enough" "we're on a journey" "results don't matter" "trust the process" cliche factory.


Almost anyone. Walsh will captain a flag at the ripe old age of 37 after we sort out our shit (and other great times in science fiction). He stays...and maybe Weitering. Not sure about anyone else's brain space. We're not overloaded with Selwood-like 'presence'.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am 
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Harry Vallence

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SurreyBlue wrote:
Setterfield and Stocker say hello. Others like TDK, Dow, JSoS, etc. will follow and thrive.


Surrey let’s not overrate players. As captain blood Jack Dyer would say “good ordinary” players.

Pies made some tough ballsy calls a few years ago and hasn’t derailed them (Stevenson, Treloar and Grundy) and same with us l feel with Stocker, Setters and SPS


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 10:12 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Didn't lose for lack of effort . We are having a go . Our hesitation makes us look slower than what we are . My instructions against the Dees would be " don't think , do " .

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:57 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
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Fenwick Snap wrote:
Keithy wrote:
Where do you start

Playing Kennedy in the backline 3 or 4 times this year and has played poorly when in the midfield we are a lot better

Doc in the midfield simply isn’t working so why persistently go with it maybe should be played on a wing

Why was Harry deep forward all night and Charlie further up should have been swapped need Charlie closer to goal

Our small forwards have absolutely no idea you very rarely see them crumbing at the front hitting it with pace they are always caught underneath our tall forwards

How we ever chased Acres is beyond me he no good at all slow / poor decision maker / turnover king should be dropped for good

Why we gave Pitto 4 years is a joke he is just a tap ruckman who has no influence whatsoever

None selection of player who’s form in the VFL warrant selection is a joke all Voss is doing is making himself look stupid for not playing them

And Voss game plan is like watching football from the 1980 just kick it long

We are the laughing stock of the AFL thanks to voss and the poor standards of football club has

I’m done watching them and no more membership for me


The Dogs game I think it was, he gifted them the first goal of the game with a turnover, continuing on from the previous week, and that was the only moment in my long years of attending Carlton games that I considered leaving after a few minutes of play. I stayed until the bitter end but it didn't get much better. That moment epitomised for me the inability of some of our supposedly better players to learn anything of their foibles or work on them. Acres has been a particularly huge disappointment for me. He starred against West Coast but really...who hasn't lately?


Acres did well at Freo and did a very good job in Freo's two finals. Somehow when these players come to Carlton strange things happen to them...lol. Acres has turned into a real Carlton player and been pretty ordinary.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 12:06 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Maybe at Freo he had a game plan that he understood that made sense and everyone in the team was on board with the game plan

Can’t be playing like this if game plan is clear to players they believe in it and have a real want to win


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:31 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Mickstar wrote:
Didn't lose for lack of effort . We are having a go . Our hesitation makes us look slower than what we are . My instructions against the Dees would be " don't think , do " .


Agreed. :clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:34 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Setterfield and Stocker say hello. Others like TDK, Dow, JSoS, etc. will follow and thrive.


Rebuild started in 2015. Its now 2023. What have we got to show for it?

Stocker :lol: Round 1 pick for a Back Pocket.

Setterfield :lol: round 1 pick for a hot n cold 3rd string medfielder

We got rid of them for a reason.

Dow :lol: round 1 pick for a butcher

JSOS was a Father Son. SOS didnt pick him

TDK :lol: He's not a good mark, not a good kick, hasn't made it, may improve, and I don't think he will be a star. He's tall. I know Kane Cornes rates him.

You're happy with SOS selections. That's OK. I'm not at present. Happy as a funeral.


Your assessment is interesting and undeniable incorrect.
Have you even watched these guys play for the other teams. Blind Freddy can see they can play and that we have NFI. Maybe switch on watch the 2nd half of the Hawthorn V StKilda game. Might help.

Actually I forgot, you’re happy with our top 10 Saad trade. I’ll let it be.


Look I'm upset with the loss. I wasn't last night, because I had good company and plenty to drink, but I am appalled today. Everyone is.

Your attack on the poster isn't making me feel better. No need to be a smartarse surrey.
Capiche

Sorry, I dont get the Saad slur. But FFS keep it civil.

You have missed my point about first rounders.

Clarkson built his Hawks dynasty with kids who had great skills.

Now remember, I'm not writing about you, or calling you a dill. I'm making a point about our playing group and the bloke who put it together. I'm not the first. I responded. You missed the point. You dont like it? Leave it at that. Simple.


I wasn’t being a smart ass (I didn’t insert and laughing emojis in my response) or attack you.
I’m highlighting how good our players are, playing elsewhere, which is what I’ve always said about our list. I’m also highlighting what bad trading is, as we decided not to value draft picks. You don’t agree, that’s fine, but facts are facts. 2 players we threw out for nothing are both in the best 22 of other clubs!!
2 players we traded in for first round picks have contributed and still contribute very, very little.


Last edited by SurreyBlue on Sun May 28, 2023 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Rod Waddell wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Setterfield and Stocker say hello. Others like TDK, Dow, JSoS, etc. will follow and thrive.


Surrey let’s not overrate players. As captain blood Jack Dyer would say “good ordinary” players.

Pies made some tough ballsy calls a few years ago and hasn’t derailed them (Stevenson, Treloar and Grundy) and same with us l feel with Stocker, Setters and SPS


This is one of our main issues. We get caught up in what others do instead of what is best for us.
How many times have I heard follow the StKilda model, follow the Hawthorn blue print, etc. now it’s follow the Collingwood list changes. All previous failures by us. Goes back to the Eddie / Tuohy day’s of trading or multiple rebuilds of no.1 picks.
How about we do what is right for us and get the culture right.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 3:08 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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SurreyBlue wrote:
but facts are facts. 2 players we threw out for nothing are both in the best 22 of other clubs!!
2 players we traded in for first round picks have contributed and still contribute very, very little.

Saad was AA last year.
Setterfield and Stocker are just solid/serviceable players - I agree however that we should have got a bit more in return for them.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 5:56 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
Mickstar wrote:
Didn't lose for lack of effort . We are having a go . Our hesitation makes us look slower than what we are . My instructions against the Dees would be " don't think , do " .



Swans players know how to keep the heat on.

Quote:
“If you put pressure on Carlton, they’re just going to give it back to you, that’s known competition wide.


https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/05/27/ive-become-extremely-frustrated-former-carlton-star-slams-club-questions/

Is that the club, the coach or the players fault?

Mate, a good player is a good player no matter who he plays for.

A first round pick has to be a good footballer who will likely make it regardless of where he plays, or its a bad selection. Its OK to get a few wrong, but we have too many similar players who looked great in a bruise free TAC contest, and that's when we needed someone who knows who is a competitior and wont go to water when the heat is on.

There's plenty of examples of good players playing for bottom of the ladder teams and still performing because they were born with god given attributes, and were proud of their performance, the opportunity and were highly competitive.

Thinl of Kevin Murray at Fitzroy. Remember Robert Harvey, who played for cellar dwellers but was too proud to not give a shit with his performance. But when he was surrounded by good players in Sate of origin, his true value shined even more.

Handballs to feet. Handballs missing. Ditto with kicking. What about blocking and shepherding? These are football instincts. Cant blame anyone else for bad skills than the player. Full stop.

Sure confidence is another ingredient, but I'm peeling this back to basics to try and work out WTF has happened when most of our list is intact: same coach, and better players available? Cant blame injuries anymore.

We have lost 6/ 7 games. We lost to an injury ravaged team, and we lost by 26 points. Coulda. shoulda.

I love Carlton. They are my team. I will continue to buy dozens of memberships and attend games, even if I know they will get smashed (dark years). I will continue to support my team. But when someone asks me WTF is wrong with those players who are Professional Footballers? I just say, they arent made of the stuff we need to win games: skills and competitiveness.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:06 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
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bondiblue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Didn't lose for lack of effort . We are having a go . Our hesitation makes us look slower than what we are . My instructions against the Dees would be " don't think , do " .



Swans players know how to keep the heat on.

Quote:
“If you put pressure on Carlton, they’re just going to give it back to you, that’s known competition wide.


https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/05/27/ive-become-extremely-frustrated-former-carlton-star-slams-club-questions/

Is that the club, the coach or the players fault?

Mate, a good player is a good player no matter who he plays for.

A first round pick has to be a good footballer who will likely make it regardless of where he plays, or its a bad selection. Its OK to get a few wrong, but we have too many similar players who looked great in a bruise free TAC contest, and that's when we needed someone who knows who is a competitior and wont go to water when the heat is on.

There's plenty of examples of good players playing for bottom of the ladder teams and still performing because they were born with god given attributes, and were proud of their performance, the opportunity and were highly competitive.

Thinl of Kevin Murray at Fitzroy. Remember Robert Harvey, who played for cellar dwellers but was too proud to not give a shit with his performance. But when he was surrounded by good players in Sate of origin, his true value shined even more.

Handballs to feet. Handballs missing. Ditto with kicking. What about blocking and shepherding? These are football instincts. Cant blame anyone else for bad skills than the player. Full stop.

Sure confidence is another ingredient, but I'm peeling this back to basics to try and work out WTF has happened when most of our list is intact: same coach, and better players available? Cant blame injuries anymore.

We have lost 6/ 7 games. We lost to an injury ravaged team, and we lost by 26 points. Coulda. shoulda.

I love Carlton. They are my team. I will continue to buy dozens of memberships and attend games, even if I know they will get smashed (dark years). I will continue to support my team. But when someone asks me WTF is wrong with those players who are Professional Footballers? I just say, they arent made of the stuff we need to win games: skills and competitiveness.


Maybe the reason why Vossy wants the first rounders etc to bomb it long to our KPF's is because he knows their skills stink things up, and have unreliable skills under pressure.

Did you see fisher in the reserves against a depleted Swans outfit? Forty possessions. Why cant he do that in the firsts. Swans gave up at half time. Where was Fisher earlier on when Swans through everything they had at the Bles reserves? Down hill skier. But he will play next week to add to Owies, Motlop, Durdin whose pace for smalls is also no existent. Have you watched these 4 try and bust through with their pace, only to be caught and tackled? The Carlton midgets. Yeah right, I'm drooling.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:00 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Mickstar wrote:
Didn't lose for lack of effort . We are having a go . Our hesitation makes us look slower than what we are . My instructions against the Dees would be " don't think , do " .


maybe singular, individual effort to some degree

There is no team-first effort...BIG BIG BIG problem...and it starts in the locker room...and is not being addressed just as much by our senior leaders as the coaching staff

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:46 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Agree.

I've handed over the ball, so my job is done.

Phew.

It won't be ME turning it over...

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:19 pm 
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John James

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Paddycripps wrote:
Dow and Fisher need to play midfield next week to give us some spark in there . A bit if run and dash

Binns ditto

I suspect Voss will be stupid and stubborn though


Fishers has spent time in the middle this year and mostly looked lost and struggling to stick his tackles.

Dow has made his case. with Cripps and Hewitt injured, if Dow doesn’t play this week he’s either already indicated his seeking a trade or Voss/MC have rocks in the their heads.

think how easy it is for oppositions to play a game against us. every player with exactly the same position and role every week for the last two years. for that reason alone we should be mixing things up.

Cripps fronted the media recently and was asked about him playing forward and other options with other players to mix it up and he said “yeah nah, that’s all fine and we already do it a bit but we have to remember what our ‘one wood’ is (implying that’s to use him, Hewitt etc in the middle)”.

hate seeing Cerra or Kennedy wasted as a spare or second CHB/flanker each week. they both can kick a goal from 40 out, our captain cannot do so on a regular enough basis. he does goal assist a bit from stoppages but he can do that as a follower.

expecting Walsh to start in the middle this week with injuries to Cripps and Hewitt. hope so anyhow. he’s starting to find touch.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:20 pm 
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John James

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Effes wrote:
Docherty

Round 1: 0 centre bounce attendances (CBA), 0 centre bounce clearances (CC)
Round 2: 2CBA, 0CC
Round 3: 5CBA, 0CC
Round 4: 9CBA, 0CC
Round 7: 10CBA, 0CC
Round 8: 7CBA, 0CC
Round 9: 6CBA, 0CC
Round 10: 8CBA, 1CC
Round 11: 6CBA, 0CC

One centre clearance for the whole season.


stopper? hard tag?!


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 10:20 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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In hindsight I wonder if the right counter to the Cripps/Heeney matchup was to throw Cripps onto the skinny side wing and force Longmire to make a move. Either Heeney is going to run off Cripps but from a lesser position of influence, or you keep him in there against either Ed playing a lockdown matchup on him, or you put Walsh in there and have him run off him forward instead.

Wasn't as if Cripps was smashing it at the centre bounces. One centre clearance from 17 attendances


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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[quote="Rod Spooky Galt"]In hindsight I wonder if the right counter to the Cripps/Heeney matchup was to throw Cripps onto the skinny side wing and force Longmire to make a move. Either Heeney is going to run off Cripps but from a lesser position of influence, or you keep him in there against either Ed playing a lockdown matchup on him, or you put Walsh in there and have him run off him forward instead.

Wasn't as if Cripps was smashing it at the centre bounces. One centre clearance from 17 attendances[/quote

Hindsight ? pretty obvious after the game had gone ten minutes . Infuriating that something wasn't tried . Ed or Walsh would have been fine by me . No bigger fan of Cripps than me but when you are getting beat you are getting beat . Bare in mind Heaney aint a midfielder but a high half forward so an unorthodox counter was required .

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:49 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
In hindsight I wonder if the right counter to the Cripps/Heeney matchup was to throw Cripps onto the skinny side wing and force Longmire to make a move. Either Heeney is going to run off Cripps but from a lesser position of influence, or you keep him in there against either Ed playing a lockdown matchup on him, or you put Walsh in there and have him run off him forward instead.

Wasn't as if Cripps was smashing it at the centre bounces. One centre clearance from 17 attendances

What they should have done is put Cripps at FF and see how Heeney likes it at FB.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:51 am 
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Rod Ashman
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GreatEx wrote:
Actually I thought your admission that you don't watch reserves after weeks of banging on incessantly about Dow was more comic relief than prescient warning, but thanks anyway.

In Voss we trust... :lol:

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