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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 3:14 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
If we base selection of form Fogarty must be a real chance

Been playing High HF/Mid role and doing well. Lots of tackles. I hope we change it up a bit

B: Boyd Young Weitering
HB: Docherty Kemp Saad
C: Acres Cripps Binns
HF: Durdin McKay Walsh
F: Charlie TDK Owies
Foll: Pittonet Kennedy Cerra
Int: Hewett Newman Dow Fogarty (Motlop or Cottrell)


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17567
FarmerBlue wrote:
I'm hoping for

Kemp for McGovern
Hewett for Ed
Binns for Hollands
TDK for Jack
Dow in for Durdin or Motlop Sub
I'd love to see Cincotta back as well so we stop playing Kennedy & Cerra in defence

and importantly a much better effort and game plan


The effort has been fine IMO.
Our players run hard defensively and offensively they work hard as well but our total game is too focussed on contest. We win the ball, wait for numbers to get forward, kick to a contest and try to win it.
Nothing will change until we move the ball quicker. There's lots of posters wanting mass changes to the team on a weekly basis and a total list overhaul but our list is in good shape IMHO. We could run out with Collingwood's players this week but if they were expected to play the same game style, we'd lose by as much if not more.

We don't challenge the opposition. We allow our players to set up downfield but we're also allowing the opposition to do the same. Our method of moving the ball upfield is to kick to a contest or to go around the opposition. The best teams go through the opposition. They take possession and hit up 15/20m passes upfield before the opposition can fill that space. They don't allow you to zone. And if you do they'll shift it and disorganise you. Look at how quickly Collingwood/Port etc get the ball to boot. They utilise the stand rule beautifully with low flat kicks that create chaos for the oppositions structure.
Our idea of shifting a zone or retaining possession is kicking backwards or sideways. We're 3rd in the AFL for disposals per game yet we're 16th for metres gained per disposal. Only NM and Hawthorn are worse.

I admire that Vossy wants a contested game style but we need gears when we win it. We're all or nothing. We either crab our way around the field or we bite off high risk corridor balls. Where's the nuance? Instead of running to contest, our players should be running to space. And when they do, kick the @#$%&! ball to them.
Instead we're petrified of not being set up behind the ball if it doesn't work. Well if our defenders cant cope without the rest of the team bailing them out, turn them over. We need to accept that risk is part of the game and to move on if you make a mistake. No one exposes themselves more than Collingwood but it's working alright for them. If they turn it over, they try to get 2 back.
Challenge the opposition. Take time away from them. Run to space. If you don't receive the ball, at least you will draw an opponent which will create a hole elsewhere. And it has to be whole ground. Instead of the small forward/mids running to a contest inside 50, lead back at the kicker for a bloody change.
Nothing will improve until we move the ball quicker. It's not about personnel, selection integrity, board composition, any of them. IMHO, it's about ball speed and challenging the opposition. Because at the moment, we're far too easy to play against. And that is all about method, not effort or personnel.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:08 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Anyone in Sydney hit up training today? And whispers about who might miss out?

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:28 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
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How can Fisher get recalled….FMD this club, how can you take them seriously


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:56 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Another issue I have with our game plan is the whole team defence and BV just touched on it then.
It came to me when I was reading the stats for the smalls.
When you have your forward line in the defensive half of the ground as often as we do you also have defenders that will stop at the HF flank to centre rather than follow all the way.
We are virtually guiding them to setup a wall/zone to stop our rebounding game and they have good reason to do this as we are too predictable.
And then with some false hope we believe we will somehow retain possession, by relying on either the contest as BV stated or kicking over the top to outnumbered forwards by the way of bombing it.

It's a catch 22 unfortunately as we lack the kicking skills at the moment to hit the targets which in turn would speed our rebound game up massively.
And our mids are no longer surging forward with handballs and taps to either go through or over this zone with any accuracy or danger to the opposition like last year.
It's almost like they are too scared to concede a point or lose possession.
So as BV has also stated, we need to be using more of a spread into space to try and break this zone up, the forwards should stay further up the ground and the players actually need go for and hit these targets.


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
DesEnglish wrote:
How can Fisher get recalled….FMD this club, how can you take them seriously



Have you seen the teams?

No way would Fisher be selected on form.

Fisher was really crap last game in the VFL, and deserved to be dropped after showing very average form in the AFL.

In Voss I trust, but if Fisher is selected, and Dow isn't I will spew. Not that I'm a fan of Dow, but when we talk about form, Dow is miles ahead.

I just hope the karma train doesn't hit Voss like it hit Ratten after stranding Fisher on 99. Don't mess with the Fishers

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Sidefx wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Great post sidex. Much appreciated, but...

Those numbers are not the numbers they've produced in last 5 losing games. My focus is our losing form over the last 6 weeks.

My point is to not look at stats from the past or from the beginning of the year when we were tripping over wins against weakened opposition.

What is happening now and Durds and Mots is that they are not happening. Whether its coaching or not, they have not been involved in much at all. Hence, they seem to be part of the problem. I'd drop Motlop at the very least, not just to stretch Swans with height but because the addition to our bonafide form small forward in Owies, we shouldn't be risking games by selecting 2 developing players, unless they are all in form and winning their positions and performing the roles we need from them, and they aren't imo.

Our smalls are not asked to drag out their short opponents from our roosters. That's my educated guess is Vossy wants the smalls at the feet of the big boys collecting crumbs, furthermore this forward pressure game, which has been lacking a 6 weeks (excl WCE) is the role of the smalls. I do know they are running up and down with their opponents to provide opposition and fill leading lanes, but their primary role is in the forward line. Coaching vs Form? I think ts a bit of both. I love the pressure Owies puts on the opposition for no stats, plus he kicks goals.

Like Fisher, I dont think Motlop is in form to warrant the spot. If there's no pressure for spots or a next soldier like there was for Honey who was 5th in line, such was his luck, then Mots stays, but I think with cottrell at HF, Owies at FP and 3 talls, the other positions can be covered by others...who? Ed or Durdin, or both.

Correct they are their season numbers (except the pressure acts, I stuffed up and used career, but the season ones are better).
I didn't realise we were only talking about the last 5 games, AFL.com doesn't have the last 5 games as an option so I can only display what is available.
I know you are saying they are not asked to drag out their opponents, but if you look at last weeks game Durdin spent 50% of his time in the Defensive half of the ground and Motlop spent 45% of his time there also.
So it's pretty hard to have a forward pressure game or be at the feet of the talls if you aren't even in the F50.
As an educated guess I'd say Voss is 100% getting them to clear their players out of the F50 anticipating the long bomb as well as playing his whole team defence strategy.
This strategy obviously doesn't require all 3 smalls in there so they left Owies in there, who as a result spent 87% of his time in the forward half and kicked goals.

As I've stated and I'm unsure why you don't want to rest blame on them, but our issues are the midfield and wings not playing their roles offensively.
For me, the issues with the smalls are at the end of the chain, not the start and until we change the start we can't expect the end to change.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree based on a what comes first, the chicken or the egg argument.

As for Cottrell at HF, I'd rather him either on a wing or tagging.
At HF you waste his running power and speed, unless we keep the 2/3 smalls in the F50 and he does the defensive work for them instead.


Chicken or the egg. I get what you're saying.

Yeah Im looking at current form not stats. The form of the 3 smalls Fisher Mots and Durds has been off for a while and Fisher was rightly dropped.

Cottrell at HF is never stationery unless you want to tag a Sinclair or a Hill from the Saints. He is a running machine.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:19 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
If we base selection of form Fogarty must be a real chance

Been playing High HF/Mid role and doing well. Lots of tackles. I hope we change it up a bit

B: Boyd Young Weitering
HB: Docherty Kemp Saad
C: Acres Cripps Binns
HF: Durdin McKay Walsh
F: Charlie TDK Owies
Foll: Pittonet Kennedy Cerra
Int: Hewett Newman Dow Fogarty (Motlop or Cottrell)



Only last week Farmer did Fogarty catch my eye. First time for a long long time.
I'd written him off for being too slow and not able to kick for goal when further out than 35m.

But last week, I thought he was special and would be good on the SCG .
I dont think Swans are a threat with the contested ball, so I'm not concerned if Fog isnt selected, but if its horses for courses, I'd pick him this week if Vossy wanted to send some positive messaging

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:25 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
I'm hoping for

Kemp for McGovern
Hewett for Ed
Binns for Hollands
TDK for Jack
Dow in for Durdin or Motlop Sub
I'd love to see Cincotta back as well so we stop playing Kennedy & Cerra in defence

and importantly a much better effort and game plan


The effort has been fine IMO.
Our players run hard defensively and offensively they work hard as well but our total game is too focussed on contest. We win the ball, wait for numbers to get forward, kick to a contest and try to win it.
Nothing will change until we move the ball quicker. There's lots of posters wanting mass changes to the team on a weekly basis and a total list overhaul but our list is in good shape IMHO. We could run out with Collingwood's players this week but if they were expected to play the same game style, we'd lose by as much if not more.

We don't challenge the opposition. We allow our players to set up downfield but we're also allowing the opposition to do the same. Our method of moving the ball upfield is to kick to a contest or to go around the opposition. The best teams go through the opposition. They take possession and hit up 15/20m passes upfield before the opposition can fill that space. They don't allow you to zone. And if you do they'll shift it and disorganise you. Look at how quickly Collingwood/Port etc get the ball to boot. They utilise the stand rule beautifully with low flat kicks that create chaos for the oppositions structure.
Our idea of shifting a zone or retaining possession is kicking backwards or sideways. We're 3rd in the AFL for disposals per game yet we're 16th for metres gained per disposal. Only NM and Hawthorn are worse.

I admire that Vossy wants a contested game style but we need gears when we win it. We're all or nothing. We either crab our way around the field or we bite off high risk corridor balls. Where's the nuance? Instead of running to contest, our players should be running to space. And when they do, kick the @#$%&! ball to them.
Instead we're petrified of not being set up behind the ball if it doesn't work. Well if our defenders cant cope without the rest of the team bailing them out, turn them over. We need to accept that risk is part of the game and to move on if you make a mistake. No one exposes themselves more than Collingwood but it's working alright for them. If they turn it over, they try to get 2 back.
Challenge the opposition. Take time away from them. Run to space. If you don't receive the ball, at least you will draw an opponent which will create a hole elsewhere. And it has to be whole ground. Instead of the small forward/mids running to a contest inside 50, lead back at the kicker for a bloody change.
Nothing will improve until we move the ball quicker. It's not about personnel, selection integrity, board composition, any of them. IMHO, it's about ball speed and challenging the opposition. Because at the moment, we're far too easy to play against. And that is all about method, not effort or personnel.


Sadly, I agree with your analysis.

I'm not into wholesale changes, but then again I have no idea how much of our problem is form or game plan, so I made suggestions this week of possible wholesale changes, which I wouldn't make but what's there to lose?

I dont like our set up and our structure when we go forward. You explain why it happens.

We will not learn anything against Swans, just like we didn't against Eagles. We will win this, and the game plan and some passengers will continue to be the status quo.

Some of the effort has been not to my liking. So its not all fine for me with all the players, now we dont have a huge injury list.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:27 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Sidefx wrote:
Another issue I have with our game plan is the whole team defence and BV just touched on it then.
It came to me when I was reading the stats for the smalls.
When you have your forward line in the defensive half of the ground as often as we do you also have defenders that will stop at the HF flank to centre rather than follow all the way.
We are virtually guiding them to setup a wall/zone to stop our rebounding game and they have good reason to do this as we are too predictable.
And then with some false hope we believe we will somehow retain possession, by relying on either the contest as BV stated or kicking over the top to outnumbered forwards by the way of bombing it.

It's a catch 22 unfortunately as we lack the kicking skills at the moment to hit the targets which in turn would speed our rebound game up massively.
And our mids are no longer surging forward with handballs and taps to either go through or over this zone with any accuracy or danger to the opposition like last year.
It's almost like they are too scared to concede a point or lose possession.
So as BV has also stated, we need to be using more of a spread into space to try and break this zone up, the forwards should stay further up the ground and the players actually need go for and hit these targets.


There may be a couple players whose kicking skills are not up to the mark, but most of our players are good kicks. There's been something amiss of late. Same players last year in the first half season were running ball and hitting targets

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:30 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
If we base selection of form Fogarty must be a real chance

Been playing High HF/Mid role and doing well. Lots of tackles. I hope we change it up a bit

B: Boyd Young Weitering
HB: Docherty Kemp Saad
C: Acres Cripps Binns
HF: Durdin McKay Walsh
F: Charlie TDK Owies
Foll: Pittonet Kennedy Cerra
Int: Hewett Newman Dow Fogarty (Motlop or Cottrell)


Cottrell dropped? That cant be right Farmer.
Cottrell for a start is a much better player than Binns. That's all I need to say. There's plenty more I can compare him with in your team, but lkets start with Binns

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
I'm still freaked out by the rumour Fish is playing. It cant be.

Ive been out all day and catching up...missed the captains run

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:19 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Ed, JSOS and Lewis Young out

Kemp and TDK the ins.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:58 pm
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Young dropped but Gov stays???!


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:25 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Correct

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:26 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:08 pm
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bluehammer wrote:
Ed, JSOS and Lewis Young out

Kemp and TDK the ins.


Hope Ed’s not the sub again … give it to FoG or Jsos


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 1199
IN - Tom De Koning, George Hewett & Brodie Kemp
OUT - Ed Curnow, Jack Silvagni & Lewis Young

JSOS? and yes Gov should have been one out surely.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:32 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2481
At least it wasn’t Fisher in


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:36 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 879
Gov very lucky to be playing
Don’t put Ed as sub


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:36 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Young :eek:

Is infuriatingly slow to make a decision with the ball in his hand but very surprised by that one.

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