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 Post subject: Maybe...
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:53 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Maybe...

we have never recovered from the crash of 2000...All of us...maybe we just expect to wake up and we are back winning flags cos that's what we expect.

so maybe the list is not quite what we had hoped (or is as poor as some here remember to mention several times a day). Maybe with this list we will always struggle against really good sides that are switched on against us, so as we improve, the better sides are planning to beat us, not just seeing our games as a rest day.

Maybe that's because (lets face it) we have been shit, like really shit for a while now so baby steps. We move from really shit (ie bottom 1 or 2 sides) to shit (bottom 4/6) to average - about where we are now ( say 8 to 12 on the ladder)

maybe we got ahead of ourselves because of that purple patch last year (first 10 rounds) until reality came back.

and maybe this is because of my first maybe (list is not there yet) and we have to work through the average stage just as we did the really shit and shit stages. Until we can get to above average (say 6 to 10) and learn how to win when it counts, not just when we catch them unawares (the better teams) or because of injuries etc.

Maybe that's why old Carlton didn't put too much in winning Colemans or Brownlows etc, they just wanted the cup but look at us, like "St Kilda" of old we point to our FF or to our Brownlow medalist and scratch out head and wonder why we can't win the flag when in truth flags have never been about Coleman medalists or Brownlow medalists.

and maybe that's why we so often look at the opposition's outs cos deep down we know we need there outs to help us because alone we are not there yet.

and maybe we need someone to cast a better eye over both our list (and those who build it) and our support coaches (and whether Voss is getting everything he needs from them)

because maybe despite what we all think, even Carlton cannot skip these steps, cannot just go from really shit to in the top 4 in the space of 2 or 3 years,

maybe that's the problems, the club, the players, and us, the punters, keep getting ahead of ourselves - I mean realistically we have improved, we now expect to beat the shit teams (and usually do) come out about 50/50m with like teams (which is what we are doing) but will struggle to beat those teams that are good (teams expected to challenge) because this list, and this club just isn't at the stage yet to challenge.

Maybe...

what we should be asking is - since Voss are we any better? I think we are. I think we have moved from shit to average (almost to above average but for that we need no injuries and a bit of luck)
Since SOS departure how is the recruiting going? Well I'm happy with Hollands and with Binns from the bits of seen of the reserves but we need to turn over all the injury prone players and we need to focus on skill, by hand and foot, and speed).

Maybe though we also need to be a bit more @#$%&! daring (and here I will disagree with BV on development of players, we are not at the pointy end were Firsts are all about wins, I think we still need to work this team with develkopment of players in the firsts as well as the Reserves, not too many, not all at once, but we still need to develop players). Our ruck is struggling try @#$%&! Mirkov (no wait we can't because everyone thinks we are there already), he will win taps, maybe that's a start for him and for our midfield and maybe with better players around him he'll develop. Seriously its time to find out. Or maybe not Mirkov, maybe Binns (light but has speed) or Akuei (raw but athletic). Will these players be ready right away? No, but I don't think the side we continue to put on the park at the moment is the answer.

Maybe we should try a new midfield mix. Cripps (swapping with Kennedy at FF, SOS out) Curnow on the wing, Hollands into the middle with Cerra (swapping with Walsh on the other wing?) Look I don't mean these exact changes, but I do mean let's mix it up a bit, even if its just for small amounts of time.

Maybe Voss knows exactly where this side is at but he also aware of how @#$%&! hopeless this club is in dealing with its punters - how they are so happy to sacrifice coaches to appease those baying for blood... I mean imagine if Richmond had have chosen the easier talk of getting rid of DH instead of working out how better to support/develop him. So maybe they need to chat with Voss, ease the stress on him, help him develop.

Maybe we are just so @#$%&! impatient that we constantly @#$%&! this up because we cannot hold our nerve under pressure. Brittain to Pagan to Ratts to MM to Bolts to Teague to Voss - no help, no development, just toss out and start again. Maybe its not the @#$%&! coach, maybe its the whole club, punters and all, not understanding that we need to move through each stage not just leap to the top.

Maybe that's how you develop a winning culture - you win 1 or 2 games, then 4 or 5, then 7 or 8 and so on.

Maybe we understand that we have improved and be happy with that and decide to keep building on that improvement, not baby, bathwater, baby, bathwater, baby over and over again. I mean there are now games where I know we will win - three years ago I just expected to lose against everyone (oh I wanted to win but you know usually we just didn't).

Maybe just give us the Cup!

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 Post subject: Maybe...
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 6:40 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: 父 父 父 父 父 父
… Maybe I just wanna fly
Wanna live, I don't wanna die
Maybe I just wanna breathe
Maybe I just don't believe
Maybe you're the same as me
We see things they'll never see
You and I are gonna live forever

Well said Dannyboy.

I don't know if Voss can coach but what I do know is that I don't know if Voss can coach.

It's the age old sunk cost argument and as a club and supporter base we have literally never stayed the course. Because we never really had to. The course was always relatively short.

Now the course and the sunk cost argument are so blurred and our own lust for blood OR success constant.

Binary. Flag or sack. Always binary decisions.

I'm no better than anyone else. I was so disgusted in our output against Brisbane that I just didn't go. I could have. But just chose not to because seeing the whole field as we miss targets makes me more angry than a tight shot on 7 or kayo.

Really struggle dealing with our obsession with finding ways to make life difficult though.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 7:24 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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yep I think because we all began to hope these losses have hurt. Misses passes, hesitation, strange roles (Kennedy as a HBF...really...) but we have improved just not enough nor fast enough for us punters or (I fear) the Board.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 8:26 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Thats the way Dan . One step at a time even if they are baby steps .

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 10:41 am 
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Ken Hunter
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my apologies, I got carried away and have rated us too highly.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 10:50 am 
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Ken Hunter
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It’s not the list though. As an example, we lost 2 players last year, who are both playing their roles and doing well at new clubs. These players were excess to our needs, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 10:54 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Stocker doesn't bother me, but I like Setters but there is an issue with this list - 2 actually, speed and skill

then add a lack of belief (in themselves, in each other, in the system (system, what system)

and add the biggest problem of all - Carlton see what is working and try to add to it, they do not see what isn't working and how to rectify it.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:48 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
Big Fish Syndrome
We have recruited too many overrated players
We as a club have been too impatient about obtaining success
The stench of the Elliott years lingers
Simply put nothing will change until the likes of Sayers and Craig Mathieson are gone
The club needs a complete makeover at the top and start rebuilding now
This isn’t easy when you still have underperforming fat cats on long term deals and Tassie coming into the competition but the club must change its practices if it want success
Surely the last year proves it once and for all


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 1:11 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1890
keogh wrote:
Big Fish Syndrome
We have recruited too many overrated players
We as a club have been too impatient about obtaining success
The stench of the Elliott years lingers
Simply put nothing will change until the likes of Sayers and Craig Mathieson are gone
The club needs a complete makeover at the top and start rebuilding now
This isn’t easy when you still have underperforming fat cats on long term deals and Tassie coming into the competition but the club must change its practices if it want success
Surely the last year proves it once and for all


Agree with your points except for being too impatient about obtaining success

The club did go hard to prune the list in 2015 and gave Bolton ample time to rebuild the team through the draft

If anything the club was to lenient and patient in excepting losses during the Bolton era, which in my view was a disaster for the club. Rebuilds don't seem to work with early failures and lack of player development.

However, do agree it has been a slippery slope since about 2019 where the club has overrated it's position, become impatient and topped up with experienced players before we laid the foundation to compete for premierships.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 1:28 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
2015
Sam Kerridge
Jed Lamb
Andrew Phillips
Liam Sumner
Daniel Gorringe
Matthew Wright
2016
Rhys Palmer
Billie Smedts
Jarred Pickett
Alex Silvangi
2017
Darcy Lang
Aaron Mullett
Andrew Lobbe
Cameron O’Shea
Matt Shaw
2018
Mitch Mc Govern
Will Setterfield
Alex Fasolo
Hugh Goddard
Tomas Bugg
Josh Deluca

MAYBE we just [REDACTED] up


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe...
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 4:49 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: Prison Island
That’s some awful reading

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