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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 4:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
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GreatEx wrote:
Lots on here were cheering our low finishes in the 2010s, now you see what that brings.

Demons and Lions are going Ok at the moment - difference being that they had more success with their draft selections and recruiting of established players.
SOS did well to get Harry and Charlie in 2015 but otherwise didn't get much right.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 4:39 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
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bondiblue wrote:
99prelim wrote:

Just as an aside - 0 tackles last night, never been accountable to his opponent and doesn't run both ways...is not a captain's bootlace...and BELIEVE ME...that has a destructive effect on the TEAM despite the number of clearnces he gets as an INDIVIDUAL


Just an aside? Nah, make this front and centre. He's unaccountable.

What did Cripps bring to the team last night? Downhill skier. Never thought I'd say that, but, enough is enough.


I was trying to be a little 'soft' as he's the reigning BM and our captain but his leadership is GOD AWFUL!!!

I still cringe when he was heard saying, "we're back, blues are back" as he walked down the race after a GC win during covid...OMFG

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 4:43 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Rod Waddell wrote:
IMO Durdin and Motlop may not be ready for regular top flight football.


I saw more mpact from Owies last night than Motlop, Durdin and Honey combined all year

I don;t care what stocks we have or don't have at VFL level...Motlop and DUrdin are getting an armchair ride from Voss

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 4:58 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
99prelim wrote:
Rod Waddell wrote:
IMO Durdin and Motlop may not be ready for regular top flight football.


I saw more mpact from Owies last night than Motlop, Durdin and Honey combined all year

I don;t care what stocks we have or don't have at VFL level...Motlop and DUrdin are getting an armchair ride from Voss


Be very hard to be a small forward in our side at the moment
Durdin last night ran hard all over the ground. Thought he was okay
Motlop looks like he's lacking confidence but teh talent is there and he is very young
Owies was very good but it's taken him a while


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 5:12 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Sydney
Humpers wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Lots on here were cheering our low finishes in the 2010s, now you see what that brings.

Demons and Lions are going Ok at the moment - difference being that they had more success with their draft selections and recruiting of established players.
SOS did well to get Harry and Charlie in 2015 but otherwise didn't get much right.


Those are good counter examples, to be fair. Others like GCS and NM ( especially the latter losing their #1 pick after a year) work in my favour. So rather than seeing the bottom-out strategy as rubbish, I will concede that it's a 50:50 prospect. The risk is that if you don't get it right, long term malaise sets in. Is there a successful precedent for us to follow to get out of it? Richmond had a long drought, but were they ever this depressed? Free agency and expansion clubs make it even tougher this time around.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 5:28 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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GreatEx wrote:
Humpers wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Lots on here were cheering our low finishes in the 2010s, now you see what that brings.

Demons and Lions are going Ok at the moment - difference being that they had more success with their draft selections and recruiting of established players.
SOS did well to get Harry and Charlie in 2015 but otherwise didn't get much right.


Those are good counter examples, to be fair. Others like GCS and NM ( especially the latter losing their #1 pick after a year) work in my favour. So rather than seeing the bottom-out strategy as rubbish, I will concede that it's a 50:50 prospect. The risk is that if you don't get it right, long term malaise sets in. Is there a successful precedent for us to follow to get out of it? Richmond had a long drought, but were they ever this depressed? Free agency and expansion clubs make it even tougher this time around.



Richmond gave Hardwick 5 years before they got "out of it". When have we given any coach in the last 20 years a similar period to make change?


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 5:44 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Posts: 1209
Cherry Ripe wrote:
You know that old Franco Cozzo ad that started ...... grand sale, grand sale ?
Hold that thought.

I'm 66, been lucky enough to see 8 flags, 7 of em in the flesh.
But they've just about broken me.
Near 20 years of kicks in the groinal and gonads area, taking its toll.

My question is, how brave are you Carlton?
Are you brave enough to change and not buy another ticket on the just change the coach merry-go-round?

Clearly there's lots of probs at cfc, but the players are ground zero.
Do you envisage Cripps running down the race to mcg turf on gf day ?
Do you see Mckay kicking a clutch match winner in a prelim ?
Do you see TDK torching big ruckman and gorilla defenders ?
Do you see Fisher blitzing Petracca or De Goey ?
Do you see Mclovin or Martin playing 20 games per year, at their age ?

Nope, me neither.
So....
Are ya brave enough to say, nope it hasn't worked (again) ?
How many top shelf draft picks would you get by having a grand sale of most of the above ?
Contracts schmontracts.

Since 1967, don't think I've seen a more mentally fragile player ever as bad as Mckay. Is anyone working with him.
Hes almost a liability at times.
If not, we'll hey Michael, it's your career he's helping to abbreviatie !

Yeah its 2 in the morning, I'm depressed. Watching the press conference, I thought it was Teague wearing a Voss face mask.

But it's OK....cfc will work on their deficiencies this week and come out and smoke dem Hot Pies !

Grande sale, comprade de Franco....


Will never happen because self-preservation will kick in for coaches and officials.

Nobody is gonna sacrifice themselves for the greater good.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 5:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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carntheblues wrote:
Richmond gave Hardwick 5 years before they got "out of it". When have we given any coach in the last 20 years a similar period to make change?


No argument here. That's why I'd rather make wholesale list changes than sack the coach, even though I'm not convinced by him yet. I've seen enough of our squad to know they haven't got what it takes. We have some qualities in abundance, others we lack drastically. Trade some of our biggest assets, bring in two-way runners, hard cauliflower, and people who can kick the @#$%&! ball. See how we go with a squad capable of implementing more than one plan.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 8:12 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
99prelim wrote:
Rod Waddell wrote:
IMO Durdin and Motlop may not be ready for regular top flight football.


I saw more mpact from Owies last night than Motlop, Durdin and Honey combined all year

I don;t care what stocks we have or don't have at VFL level...Motlop and DUrdin are getting an armchair ride from Voss


I wasn't going to post after a big day out but...

I'm not the only one who agrees with that sentiment 99.

I see the intensity both bring, but I'd like the sum of both TBH!!

They're not Betts Garlett Walker, or Yarran. 3-4 Amigos.
They're No One's little helpers either. Harry & Charlie are picking up kicks away from goal and I don't see SOS at FF. I see Durdin & Owies leading up..

I really don't want to sound harsh, but, we heap a lot of responsibility on anyone wearing the Navy Blue, and the 2 kids Durd & Mot are only 20 & 21yo's.
They aren't ready for 4 quarters. Owies is the No. 1 small forward. That settle's that. That's enough small forwards. We need blokes who are also dangerous in the air.
If the 2nd small forward is Wddie Betts, well, that changes everything.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 8:17 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
GreatEx wrote:
carntheblues wrote:
Richmond gave Hardwick 5 years before they got "out of it". When have we given any coach in the last 20 years a similar period to make change?


No argument here. That's why I'd rather make wholesale list changes than sack the coach, even though I'm not convinced by him yet. I've seen enough of our squad to know they haven't got what it takes. We have some qualities in abundance, others we lack drastically. Trade some of our biggest assets, bring in two-way runners, hard cauliflower, and people who can kick the @#$%&! ball. See how we go with a squad capable of implementing more than one plan.



Have a comp in the poreseason amongst the whole team.
Let them have a shot at goal from:
15 on a few anles; then the same from 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, then on then run and get a real picture of who can and who cant.
Transparency, like the TAC, is what should happen, instead of gifting games.

Why do I care? I'm back on TC again...fk you guys are...health practitioners for the tragically rusted on. :thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 8:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Thought it was positive that we tried to change things with the Charlie and Harry dynamic, with Harry playing closer to goal and Charlie up the field a bit more. It's worth persevering with, but also probably needed some changing on the night when Tim English took a million uncontested marks and no-one went near Ed Richards. Having them both play deep-ish at some point would have made sense. As would a shred of accountability from Pitotnet and Silvagni on the night.

Concerned that Harry's goalkicking isn't so much a physical fatigue issue as I thought it was, but a glaring footwork issue. I have no problem with the round the corner set shot, so much as Harry is a terrible exponent of it. The shot still requires footwork going in a set direction towards the target, just in a more roundabout fashion. Harry instead goes in a straight line away from the goalface, and tries to overcompensate late. There's no real natural arc to it, and seems far too concerned about what the defenders are doing, whether he's triggering a play-on scenario. His work applying defensive pressure equally unimpressive. I wonder if there's merit to playing TDK in his role and seeing what sticks for the better part of a month - but with the month ahead and the situation we find ourselves in, I'd rather hope the bloke comes good.


I liked the Dogs' setup in their forward 50 which effectively sees their forward six line up in an Indian file down the corridor and split in different directions once the ball is bounced, with different looks as to who played deep, and no real consistency around whether they'd play a high half forward at the ensuing contests, and who would go.

I thought it was probably the best performance from our back six all year. We could have easily won that game off the back six, with a poor functioning forward line and sluggish midfield output. Newy, Olly and Young in particular really good. Dogs should have gone in nine goals up.

Centre Bounce Attendances speaks volumes:
Cripps 87%
Pittonet 83%
Hewett 70%
Kennedy 57%
Walsh 43%
Docherty 26%
Cerra 17%
Silvagni 17%

A real trick missed not to throw Motlop in there late in the 3rd/early in the fourth, when he was running down blokes left, right and centre. Ed as the sub seemed to lack any real sense to it - thought the obvious match up at 3/4 time was to play a lockdown role on their Ed, but didn't necessarily think playing around with the forward line set up just as it finally started to gel after being garbage all game was the right idea. In hindsight, it was probably running with Bailey Smith. At what point do you concede that Cripps at the centre bounce was actively detrimental and move him forward?

We looked a lot better once we were able, and more importantly willing to actively look and provide link options running out wide late in the third. Cottrell brings this in spades and so glad to see him back. And then we gave up on that, and played Hero Ball with Cripps, Walsh and Charlie late. Thought we got the mix of the small forwards right - Motlop, Owies and to a lesser extent Durdin combined well.

Throw my hands up and admit defeat on knowing what to do with our ruck set up right now - the issue isn't just the number one position but the back up option as well. Don't think we can play both Pittonet and TDK in the same team with that stagnant and slow set of CBAs, Silvagni just doesn't impact the contest enough either. Reluctant to throw out what's becoming a good team balance by throwing Young in there instead, and playing Durdin in his role. Could Marchbank relief ruck? Do we throw HOK or Akuei in there even though they're absolutely not ready, so far as shaking things up and seeing what sticks with the relief ruck role? AFAIC - Pittonet is far and away the number one ruck, and TDK in the role of a second or JSOS simply haven't worked and I can't see how they will either.

In: A goalkicking coach for Harry
Out: Harry's hubris

In: A second ruck option that doesn't wreck the rest of our structure.
Out: Silvagni

In: 2-3 more centre bounce attendances a game
Out: Pittonet-Cripps-Hewett-Walsh/Kennedy for the majority of the game.

Other than that, probably Martin/Boyd for JSOS and give Holland a rest. Young to Cox, follow him as the resting ruck where need be.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 8:45 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
carntheblues wrote:
keogh wrote:
The criticism of Cripps is partially justified
I haven’t rated him as a captain

Too much one of the boys but some of this talk about him on this site is over the top

Imagine if he wasn’t with us the last 9 years
The guy has a go every week

The thing is opposition clubs have figured him out
Sit on him in the context
Once the ball is out in opposition hands he is a non factor

It’s obvious that he needs a role change
Swap Charlie and Cripps
Play McKay deep Cripps to play forward

Opposition teams have worked out Saad too
So play him
On a wing
Voss has to change these 2 guys roles in the team
Play Durdin in the middle for periods
Even Owies who I have always said would make a reasonable mid
De Koning to play ruck
Carroll and Binns to play
Carrol to play wing
Play Binns as a sub
Kemp to play defence
Playing Cerra at HB and Ed as a sub is stupid
Our midfield is vanilla
One has to go
Hewett goes to the magoos

Voss needs to have the balls to change things


Spoken like someone who doesn't go to games and relies on a few stats to build an opinion that supports his total negativity.


So what are the match ups for next week then
By the way I’m a strong advocate for Voss to see out his contract at the end of 2024 but if he wants to keep his job he needs to start to do some things differently


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:43 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Another game we could've won if only the players had've kicked better.


Quote:
5. The Blues were better … but

Coach Michael Voss was spot on, his team was competitive and gave themselves a chance at victory. They defended largely one v one, and the effort and application would have pleased him. The Blues wore down the Bulldogs to the point where offence opened up off the back of their defence. The last 12 minutes will need reviewing, but overall there were more positives than negatives. One of Carlton’s problems is their skills, in particular their kicking. Blake Acres wins plenty of the ball on the wing, but his past two weeks has seen his right leg crumble. He’s had 46 disposals and gone at 41 per cent by foot, when the league average is 66. Against the Dogs, Jacob Weitering went at 36 per cent, Patrick Cripps at 25 per cent, Adam Cerra at 43 per cent, Jack Silvagni at 33 per cent and Harry McKay kept missing goals. It was a rugged game, and space at times was not available, but good teams deal with that pressure and circumstance. The Blues kill themselves when they have the ball. Like, the first goal came via Jason Johannisen when Acres missed a kick coming out of the backline. Acres kicked it over the head of his teammate and Johannisen marked and goaled.


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/the-tackle-mark-robinsons-likes-and-dislikes-after-round-9/news-story/f2b18e5c5727228299b32fae7c3a2128

Love the dare, but lets get the easy Footy 101 stuff like kick passing and goal kicking sorted.

We are shooting ourselves in the foot.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 8:57 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Location: Bondi Beach
Some Footscray-Western Bulldogs fans told me we kicked ourselves out of the game, one saying "what they fk has happened to your team's kicking? Its the pits. And the Captain on his left :lol: "

Similar was said by Any Maher:

Quote:
Carlton tragic Andy Maher believes too much criticism is coming in the direction of coach Michael Voss when the fault lies with the poor ball use of his players.

The Blues routinely blew simple kicks, particularly in the first half of their Saturday night loss to the Western Bulldogs – and that includes four simple set shots that amounted to nothing.


Quote:
“You can bag Michael Voss, if you want to ring Bruce Mathieson and give him a half volley outside off stump and let him tee off on the CEO and the footy manager and the coach, go your hardest and if you want to lap up what he says because it helps with your frustration, so be it.


Quote:
“But good luck being a coach when you’ve got blokes who miss targets 20 metres away. When you sit the ball consistently on the head of blokes.
“They have got no chance of playing any sort of meaningful high quality football, and I’m not just talking about the kicking for goal, their field kicking was atrocious in the first half.


Quote:
Patrick Cripps’ decision to attempt a left foot snap from a set shot epitomised Carlton’s first half, with the kick ultimately missing completely. Jesse Motlop, Sam Walsh and Harry McKay also shanked set shots, which ultimately mattered in a low scoring game.

“The kicking for goal – in the first half, forget about Sam Walsh’s set shot because that was just a horrible kick, but there were three moments with Jesse Motlop, Harry McKay and Patrick Cripps who all had kickable goals and went around the corner,” Maher added.

“If I’m a coach, I’m doing a diagram for my players. I’m drawing an arc. If you’re on the boundary side of the 50, no problems. You can kick a check side. If you are corridor side of the 50, you are kicking a drop punt and I, as the coach, will take the heat. If you miss it, it’s on me.

“But when they are kicking the ball so poorly, you have to take responsibility.

“Those three misses were at critical times when the team was desperately crying out for reward on the scoreboard and they got none. And it sucks the life out of you when those kicks are so errant.”


https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/05/15/carltons-sloppy-skill-errors-to-blame-for-dogs-loss-not-coaching/

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:11 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
Posts: 836
bondiblue wrote:
Some Footscray-Western Bulldogs fans told me we kicked ourselves out of the game, one saying "what they fk has happened to your team's kicking? Its the pits. And the Captain on his left :lol: "

Similar was said by Any Maher:

Quote:
Carlton tragic Andy Maher believes too much criticism is coming in the direction of coach Michael Voss when the fault lies with the poor ball use of his players.

The Blues routinely blew simple kicks, particularly in the first half of their Saturday night loss to the Western Bulldogs – and that includes four simple set shots that amounted to nothing.


Quote:
“You can bag Michael Voss, if you want to ring Bruce Mathieson and give him a half volley outside off stump and let him tee off on the CEO and the footy manager and the coach, go your hardest and if you want to lap up what he says because it helps with your frustration, so be it.


Quote:
“But good luck being a coach when you’ve got blokes who miss targets 20 metres away. When you sit the ball consistently on the head of blokes.
“They have got no chance of playing any sort of meaningful high quality football, and I’m not just talking about the kicking for goal, their field kicking was atrocious in the first half.


Quote:
Patrick Cripps’ decision to attempt a left foot snap from a set shot epitomised Carlton’s first half, with the kick ultimately missing completely. Jesse Motlop, Sam Walsh and Harry McKay also shanked set shots, which ultimately mattered in a low scoring game.

“The kicking for goal – in the first half, forget about Sam Walsh’s set shot because that was just a horrible kick, but there were three moments with Jesse Motlop, Harry McKay and Patrick Cripps who all had kickable goals and went around the corner,” Maher added.

“If I’m a coach, I’m doing a diagram for my players. I’m drawing an arc. If you’re on the boundary side of the 50, no problems. You can kick a check side. If you are corridor side of the 50, you are kicking a drop punt and I, as the coach, will take the heat. If you miss it, it’s on me.

“But when they are kicking the ball so poorly, you have to take responsibility.

“Those three misses were at critical times when the team was desperately crying out for reward on the scoreboard and they got none. And it sucks the life out of you when those kicks are so errant.”


https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/05/15/carltons-sloppy-skill-errors-to-blame-for-dogs-loss-not-coaching/


spot on.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:52 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:24 pm
Posts: 1286
FarmerBlue wrote:
99prelim wrote:
Rod Waddell wrote:
IMO Durdin and Motlop may not be ready for regular top flight football.


They would make things easier for themselves if they position themselves better.

Watch Motlop ... when the ball is kicked deep and high he has his back to the goal ... he should be facing the goal ready to pounce on spilt balls.
I saw more mpact from Owies last night than Motlop, Durdin and Honey combined all year

I don;t care what stocks we have or don't have at VFL level...Motlop and DUrdin are getting an armchair ride from Voss


Be very hard to be a small forward in our side at the moment
Durdin last night ran hard all over the ground. Thought he was okay
Motlop looks like he's lacking confidence but teh talent is there and he is very young
Owies was very good but it's taken him a while


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 9:52 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Against Brisbane, as a relatively quiet football viewer, I stood up and yelled 'learn to kick' at least 3 times.

Hammer goes bang, am I right?

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:54 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Yeah righto Andy Maher

It's not the coaches fault, it's the players for kicking poorly..... then says the coach should do x,y,z to fix it.

um....

It's all their @#$%&! fault.

It starts with the coach leading/directing/instructing (whatever you want to call it) skills development and skills training and it ends with the players taking some @#$%&! pride in their work and doing the extras to get better at their skills at the sport that pays their wages.

Shit skills is definitely a coaching issue but geez, ok i agree, our players are bloody infuriating.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:10 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I sort of implied this in the other thread but your club leaders (pres, managers, coaches, captains) have stewardship of your results. The players can't hit the side of a barn? Why? is it psychology, coaching, they are just shit and wet the bed whenever any pressure is applied?

I very much doubt its simply the players fault, unless of course the list is simply rubbish, which it clearly is not. Unless they are planning on a further refresh of list, the game plan etc has to have some suitability with the players on the list.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 11:28 am 
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Adrian Gallagher

Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:20 pm
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david31 wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
Brad Lloyd on 3AW

Tough night to score
Didn't capitalise on work
Worked hard to get back into game but couldn't hang on
McKay putting in a heap of work on goalkicking
Missing too many targets
Ball movement improved last night
Ash hansen works on goalkicking. No need for anyone else
Adam Cerra comments last week were fine but we want to play finals
Reviews say we need to execute better. Not really about opposition
Understand supporter frustration
Off field going well and we are doing everything to improve
People can have their opinion and I accept that, I think the club is in really good shape
Really focused on staying united and connected. I understand the expectation, but I couldn't feel more supported and I think the club is in really good shape we just need to get moving a bit on the field
Club needs to stay united

Really said a heap of nothing that didn't mean anything. Was like a Politician
Mumbled a lot

Personally, I believe Brad is one of the problems

Brad Lloyd is a huge problem for this club. If anyone in the football department is to go, he has to be first as the head of a failing department.
He is responsible for managing and overseeing the coaching group, list management team and high performance team. The heads of those roles report directly to Brad. He is ultimately responsible for their performance and making changes when things aren’t working.
He’s the guy paid to recognise that Voss’ coaching team lacked tactical nous and bolster it through assistants but he rolled the same coaching group out after last year. He’s the guy who had to be ruthless and ensure that more injury prone players were delisted at the end of last year.

To run through his time at Carlton:
- Started at the club in August 2018. No previous experience in a head of football or equivalent role. He was list manager at Freo before arriving.
- In 2019, oversaw the Bolton sacking and Teague appointment (which was a complete waste of 2 years).
- In 2021, the club review finds significant failures in the football department, a lack of delineation around roles and other adverse findings. Coaches and other members of the footy department are removed but somehow the head of that department (who is responsible for its running) is found not culpable and survives.
- Also in 2021, part of panel to appoint Voss (which is looking shaky at best).
- In 2022, failed to change the coaching panel when all was not well by seasons end. No proactive moves. Injury prone players given contracts for 2023.

We now get to 2023. We are failing and the coach is rightfully being questioned. That is where we’re at and we’ve got to move forward and make big calls across coaching, recruitment strategy (ie mini retool or push forward), trading out players, injury prone players etc. Brad has had 5 years of opportunities and missed the mark time and time again.

Bring in someone with experience in this role that can weather the storm and make ruthless decisions in the best interests of this club.



Great post and seems reasonable to me. It reminds me of McKay being in the role for a LONG time and overseeing some terrible results. I think he was appointed around 2011 at the high point of the Judd era. He kept surviving the culls despite being head of the department.


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