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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:39 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Our players are shithouses, no one's denying that. But you did insinuate that that's a result of being introverted. And if you really believe a balance is best, does that mean a team of all extroverts is also bad? Do you think extroversion and courage go hand in hand?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 12:14 am 
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John James
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My two cents, at risk of being a sometimes courageous, somewhat in the introvert camp, fringe player here:

The whole introvert/extrovert thing might be a fun thing for people to hang their hats on but we don't really know which players fit into which camp and whether it matters. I suspect most people, me included, think a mix is good, but the labelling of individual players is problematic and unhelpful.

It's much easier to point out those with a bit of mongrel or mischief or just having a big mouth. Sure, label them as extroverts (at least on the footy field). I see Owies labelled as introverted - not sure about that. I like to think Bradley was an introvert but some reports suggest that he didn't mind having a yap. I know, however, regardless of what some think of his lack of 'toughness', that I would back him to kick a clutch goal under any circumstances. I couldn't say that for serial big mouth Andrew Jarman when he missed a sitter to keep Essenscum at bay in the '93 prelim. Or Freo's serial pest Ballantyne choking it up on the big stage.

Just my opinion, of course. I just think that there are better ways of assessing a player's and team's worth than poorly defined introversion levels. (I'm sure Kenny Hunter would have nailed any clutch shot too - great example of the futility of equating courage with extroversion).

As a poorly defined introvert (sometimes I slip into the extrovert column, depending on the questions and my mood), I get a bit sick of obviously self-defined extroverts having a dig at those of us that they might not understand, some of whom might belong to the extrovert brigade anyway.

If it's a little more mongrel you're after, sure, so am I - just say so. Bosustow was quite good at upsetting others' apple cart when it was needed. We might need a bit of that...or something else. I thing the thing that unites us on here is that we just want our team to look like they give a toss about winning for every minute they're on the park.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 7:36 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Well said, FS. Exactly what I was getting at. Being an IT worker, I deal with a lot of introverted types, maybe I am one too I dunno, but I don't see any lack of courage and I certainly don't see any inability to get the job done or refusal to step up. It's a completely false equivalence. I agree it's good to have a mix of personality types and we definitely need better leadership, but that's as far as it goes.


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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:04 am 
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Ken Hunter
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You can quite easily be an introvert off the field and then get white line fever once you're on it. It's similar to the "extroverted introverts" who can turn it on in a social situation.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:04 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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How about we just reframe the discussion as timid players and mongrels.

We have zero mongrel.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:14 am 
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Ken Hunter
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We need mongrel, we need cauliflower, we need snide. It doesn't need to mean biffing blokes either... one thing I constantly notice watching non Carlton games is how when a player marks the ball his opponent will steal a couple of metres and only give them back slowly if the umpire demands it, which gives the defensive team a valuable few seconds to set up. Our guys never do that, they seem to take pride in getting to the correct mark as quickly as possible, landing with two feet, hands in the air, like kindergartners lining up for class hoping to get a gold star. Gamesmanship isn't attractive but we put ourselves at a disadvantage by not working the game. Be a flower, steal the metres!


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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:32 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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You know what I loved in the Hawthorn game yesterday?

King got a 50m penalty for falling over in a light breeze that was going to take him to the goal square.

Sicily knew that another 50 was going to have no impact, so came in and knocked him over properly.

It was measured and considered, no disadvantage to the team, but said 'I know what you did there'.

Went on to have 42 and 650 metres gained in a massive upset playing against a side perched on top 4.

Loved it

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 10:24 am 
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Geoff Southby
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GWS wrote:
How about we just reframe the discussion as timid players and mongrels.

We have zero mongrel.


Yeah . " Big Nick " was a pretty quiet bloke off the ground but was the WORLD champion of mongrels when he took the field .

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:22 am 
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Harry Vallence
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I'd start by adding another year to Voss's contract ASAP. Give him the mandate to work the squad to what he wants, rather than what is required to make finals.

01 - Jack Silvagni - 2023 - Let him go. Third round pick you'd think in compensation.
02 - Paddy Dow - 2023 - Delist
03 - Jesse Motlop - 2025 - Retain
04 - Lochie O'Brien - 2024 - Retain - I feel like we could use him on a half-forward flank. Has the weapons to be a threat from outside 50.
05 - Adam Cerra - 2025 - Retain
06 - Zac Williams - 2026 - I'd genuinely consider trading the TDK compo pick if someone wanted to take his contract off our hands. Depends if a) we want to keep McGovern, b) the offers from other clubs aren't ridiculous to match
07 - Matthew Kennedy - 2025 - Retain
08 - Lachlan Fogarty - 2023 - Delist
09 - Patrick Cripps - 2027 - I'd be interested to see what teams would offer here. Saints, Essendon* and Geelong would have a crack, and would probably appeal to him. Would he want to go home and play at the Eagles? Wouldn't actively take an any trade, i.e. a cap dump, but if a top ten pick was there for the taking and an appropriate replacement targeted elsewhere, I'd look at it.
10 - Harry McKay - 2030 - He's got no currency, could have traded him for pick 2 last year. Very cool. Retain for no other option available.
11 - Mitch McGovern - 2023 - I'd prefer to keep, but the writing looks on the wall that he's gone.
12 - Tom De Koning - 2023 - Take the best available offer and offload.
13 - Blake Acres - 2025 - Meh, retain.
14 - Ollie Hollands - 2026 - Retain.
15 - Sam Docherty - 2025 - Retain/redeploy in a different role.
16 - Jack Carroll - 2024 - Why did we re-sign this long? Retain as no other choice.
17 - Brodie Kemp - 2023 - One year deal please, that will inevitably be two or three inexplicably.
18 - Sam Walsh - 2026 - Ideally this would be Walsh's team by now, and we'd structure up accordingly. Instead, if we're going to get a top 5 pick for a bloke we intend to use off half back, I'll begrudgingly take it.
19 - Corey Durdin - 2024 - Retain.
20 - Lachie Plowman - 2023 - Delist.
21 - Jack Martin - 2024 - Upgrade the pick on offer if we can cap dump both him and Williams simultaneously.
22 - Caleb Marchbank - 2023 - One year deal on the rookie list at this point.
23 - Jacob Weitering - 2025 - I mean I'd take a top 5 pick for him too, but given we've cooled on Young, McGovern looks gone and Durdin can't get on the park, I doubt that's happening. Ideally we instead target a key defender that can let Weitering play the intercept role McGovern has failed at.
24 - Nic Newman - 2023 - 30 already. Two year deal probably makes sense. Another one I fully expect to get 3 years for no real reason.
25 - Zac Fisher - 2025 - I'd let him go for a pick similar to what we got for SPS, despite marginally being worth more. Genuine list clogger.
26 - Lachie Cowan - 2026 - Retain
27 - Marc Pittonet - 2027 - Retain
28 - David Cuningham - 2023 - I'd prefer to retain in theory, but in practice, we're running out of opportunities to see why. Gone
29 - George Hewett - 2025 - Retain
30 - Charlie Curnow - 2029 - Retain
31 - Harry Lemmey - 2024 - Retain
32 - Jaxon Binns - 2024 - Retain
33 - Lewis Young - 2026 - This contract has aged like milk. I'm almost considering Ben McKay eventually joining as a good thing.
34 - Sam Philp - 2023 - Gone
35 - Edward Curnow - 2023 - Gone
36 - Josh Honey - 2023 - Gone
37 - Jordan Boyd - 2024 - Retain
38 - Sam Durdin - 2023 - McGovern/Ben McKay dependant. I'd keep for another year.
41 - Domanic Akuei - 2023 - Yet to see any reason to keep but open to it.
42 - Adam Saad - 2025 - Retain
44 - Matthew Owies - 2024 - Retain
45 - Alex Mirkov - 2024 - Another bizarre contract - forced retain
46 - Matthew Cottrell - 2024 - Retain

So that's 8 delistings, 3 lost to free agency/out of contract, another 6 I'd look to offload if the deal was right/ridiculous.

Looking over the list of free agents - would Essendon* entertain a deal involving Cripps for Parish? I'd like Doedee, Himmelberg would be a nice addition/McGovern replacement, open to Gresham. Matt Flynn as the back up ruck, ANB would be a handy addition around the half forward line.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 12:24 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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I'm interested to hear why you'd chase Darcy Parish? I guess he is an outside specialist and seems to have a great tank, but I can't remember him ever doing anything notable with the ball, he seems to be an accumulator for accumulation's sake, an impoverished man's Sam Walsh. Could just be the red sash blinding me, but I've always rated Merrett far higher.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 12:57 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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I think *if* (and that's a big if) you choose to part ways with Cripps at the end of the year, or even Walsh for that matter, you need to bring in a similar quality midfielder.

I share your concerns around Parish (although I don't rate Zach Merrett that much) - but ultimately, he's the only midfielder available in free agency of decent quality (washed Fyfe aside), it's an upgrade in age profile, I think he addresses concerns around speed at the centre bounce contests to a degree, and it's not a total admission of a rebuild.

I wouldn't chase Parish in an isolated context, but only if we decided Cripps no longer fit in with the long term plans or can offer what we need.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:48 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:49 pm
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Parish? Another player who is a very ordinary kick. As GreatEx wrote, an accumulator. Can look great bursting away from the contest, then he kicks it.... No thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:22 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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RSG - you’ve just traded all our skilled, talented, decent players and kept the duds. More importantly, you’re mostly throwing them out the door as well. Not sure I can agree with much of that.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:30 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Yeah, totally.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 4:45 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
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SurreyBlue wrote:
RSG - you’ve just traded all our skilled, talented, decent players and kept the duds. More importantly, you’re mostly throwing them out the door as well. Not sure I can agree with much of that.

The Malthouse strategy.

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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 5:11 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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The Malthouse strategy brought as much success as any other we've tried in the past 25 years...

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:02 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
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Location: Princess Park
I know we have several weaknesses however a mid-size forward would be nice. I can't remember the last mid-size forward we had that could take a mark, kick a goal and also good on the ground.

A player like Mihocek would be nice, a rookie selection. I was hoping Silvagni could develop into this role. Fritsch, Bailey types would be nice.

Can't rely on H and Charlie to kick a winning score every week, would prefer to have multiple goal kickers.


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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:14 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I'd look at Luke Breust for a year or 2. Durable. Winning culture. Can kick.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:28 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Last half forward we had that could kick and medium size Andrew Walker kicked 60 I think in a season or close to it

His kicking for goal was only average when he started but worked on it and was a very reliable kick in the end for goal

Some of our ball butchers kicking for goal H JSOS Motlop Durdin could all take note and do some extra work


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:32 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Motlop ain't a butcher when kicking for goal.


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