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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:00 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
I look at it like this

There are our definite Best 22 players. It's up to the next lot to step up and fill the spots to make us better

B:............. ............. McGovern
HB: Williams Weitering Saad
C: Acres Cripps Walsh
HF: .......... McKay ...........
F: .......... Curnow .............
Foll: Pittonet Hewett Docherty
Int: Cerra Kennedy .......... ...........

The spots need to be filled by Young S.Durdin Marchbank Silvagni Newman O'Brien Cottrell TDK Motlop Martin C.Durdin Owies Carroll Kemp Plowman Fisher Cuningham Boyd Honey Philp and some good draft picks


I have a similar way of viewing our best 22. I have 3 gaps on my interchange and realistic to know we don't have anyone stronger to take Pitto's spot, but sure would love to upgrade the ruck.

Cerra and Kennedy as interchange "specialists" and have them listed in your first 14 players. I get it.

Based on your views of Cuningham Gov hasn't been consistent enough to be relied on:

2019 played 16 games av 8.5 disposals per game. Unfit for purpose in his first year. Auto selection in bottom team.
2020 12 games for 7.7 disposals. Failed Froward
2021 5 games for 11.2 disposals. Failed Forward
2022 7 games for 14 disposals in defence

But I agree he has class and a great vertical leap that we all value. Lets hope he can be relied on. I have Marchbank ahead of Gov, but have the same question marks on both re reliability.

I'd like to think Boyd is an automatic in the BP, hence no need for Stocker.

I thought Young had his breakthrough year, and his spot in the team will not be overtaken by anybody else on our list.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:09 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:

I'm with you on Cuningham.
I'm a real fan.
He was progressing nicely and looking very dangerous at HF till he did that knee.
The fact we heard nothing about his injury and reinjury from the club is the reason I havent backed him....yet.
For me, a fit Cuners can replace any of Cottrell (speed on a wing-defensive HF), Fisher (HF-mid) or Martin (HF-mid-injured).


Cuningham has the traits to be a really good player but is yet to produce anything close to being a Best 22 AFL player
It will be his 8th season next year and he has played 41 games and never been a regular


Different players have their breakthrough at different rates.
After years of injuries from hip in his first season in 2017 to hammies in 2018. His breakthrough game was against Effendopes in 2020 with close to 30 possessions.
Cuningham was an automatic selection in the first 4 games in 2021 before he did his ACL vs Dees.

I agree he has the traits to be a best 22 player and disagree he ha yet to produce anything close to a best 22. He has been recontracted because he has shown something we need, but he needs to stay fit.


Disagree. Never an automatic based on performances. Essentially had ONE really good game. Given a go when we were poor and never fully established himself.

Has a one year deal when O'Brien, Cottrell Owies got two. It's now or never


I think we both agree consistency has been Cuningham's challenge, but he obviously has shown something the list manager finds desirable.

Look at it this way: LOB and Cottrell played a full season and earned 2 years (LOB's manager wouldn't accept less than 2). Cuningham who didnt play another game after round 4 in 2021, and no games in 2022 was offered a one year contract. There must be something more than one good game they see in Cuners. I saw him play more than one good game. HF is not an easy position to play for anyone let alone a 22yo. Agree its now or never in 2023 for him too.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:28 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 572
bondiblue wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
I look at it like this

There are our definite Best 22 players. It's up to the next lot to step up and fill the spots to make us better

B:............. ............. McGovern
HB: Williams Weitering Saad
C: Acres Cripps Walsh
HF: .......... McKay ...........
F: .......... Curnow .............
Foll: Pittonet Hewett Docherty
Int: Cerra Kennedy .......... ...........

The spots need to be filled by Young S.Durdin Marchbank Silvagni Newman O'Brien Cottrell TDK Motlop Martin C.Durdin Owies Carroll Kemp Plowman Fisher Cuningham Boyd Honey Philp and some good draft picks


I have a similar way of viewing our best 22. I have 3 gaps on my interchange and realistic to know we don't have anyone stronger to take Pitto's spot, but sure would love to upgrade the ruck.

Cerra and Kennedy as interchange "specialists" and have them listed in your first 14 players. I get it.

Based on your views of Cuningham Gov hasn't been consistent enough to be relied on:

2019 played 16 games av 8.5 disposals per game. Unfit for purpose in his first year. Auto selection in bottom team.
2020 12 games for 7.7 disposals. Failed Froward
2021 5 games for 11.2 disposals. Failed Forward
2022 7 games for 14 disposals in defence

But I agree he has class and a great vertical leap that we all value. Lets hope he can be relied on. I have Marchbank ahead of Gov, but have the same question marks on both re reliability.

I'd like to think Boyd is an automatic in the BP, hence no need for Stocker.

I thought Young had his breakthrough year, and his spot in the team will not be overtaken by anybody else on our list.


Boyd should be but hasn't yet. I expect him to walk into a BP role
McGovern is proven especially at Crows. Now fit he is easily Best 22 IMO
Cuningham is completely different. 41 games in 7 seasons in a poor side. I hope he steps up and Voss gets the best out of him but IMO at this stage he is nowhere near proven and neitehr is anyone else I listed on our possible list
Young was very good but needs some intensity. He should be our first choice FB but I wouldn't write off Durdin to push him for the role


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:33 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Posts: 9512
Right now - this is pretty simple, especially when we can't include players on the outer.

Williams Young McGovern (club loves him - I wouldn't blink and have Marchbank here)
Docherty Weitering Saad
Cerra Cripps Acres
Martin Silvagni Fisher
McKay Curnow Durdin
Pittonet Hewett Walsh
Newman Kennedy Motlop DeKoning
Emerg: Owies Carroll Cuningham Marchbank


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:58 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 16788
FarmerBlue wrote:
I look at it like this

There are our definite Best 22 players. It's up to the next lot to step up and fill the spots to make us better

B:............. ............. McGovern
HB: Williams Weitering Saad
C: Acres Cripps Walsh
HF: .......... McKay ...........
F: .......... Curnow .............
Foll: Pittonet Hewett Docherty
Int: Cerra Kennedy .......... ...........

The spots need to be filled by Young S.Durdin Marchbank Silvagni Newman O'Brien Cottrell TDK Motlop Martin C.Durdin Owies Carroll Kemp Plowman Fisher Cuningham Boyd Honey Philp and some good draft picks


Walsh didn't play wing this year so why would you think he'll play there in 2023?

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:12 am 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 572
Blue Vain wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
I look at it like this

There are our definite Best 22 players. It's up to the next lot to step up and fill the spots to make us better

B:............. ............. McGovern
HB: Williams Weitering Saad
C: Acres Cripps Walsh
HF: .......... McKay ...........
F: .......... Curnow .............
Foll: Pittonet Hewett Docherty
Int: Cerra Kennedy .......... ...........

The spots need to be filled by Young S.Durdin Marchbank Silvagni Newman O'Brien Cottrell TDK Motlop Martin C.Durdin Owies Carroll Kemp Plowman Fisher Cuningham Boyd Honey Philp and some good draft picks


Walsh didn't play wing this year so why would you think he'll play there in 2023?


He did at times. With all our midfielders fit and playing it's hard to fit them in. Carroll could also step up and then we have Pick 10 which looks like a mid based on phantom drafts so far. I can see Walsh Docherty and Cerra spending time on a wing. Anyway, that's my reasoning


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:13 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
Just read this and thought the potential rule change would support what Vossy already prefers playing the 2 rucks.

Quote:
Richmond will begrudgingly release Ivan Soldo to Greater Western Sydney to seal the Jacob Hopper deal, as the Tigers plan for a potential five-man bench that could pave the way for clubs to play two full-time ruckmen.


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/afl-trade-period-follow-all-the-latest-news-on-all-the-big-deals-as-they-happen/news-story/fe70d07d2dcde91b876ca9cc6ab29385

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:48 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
Posts: 721
Anyone else abit concerned with our lack of trading this year .. are we just relying on natural progression or is it the fact that whilst everyone around us is improving their lists, they are doing so because they have significant retirement or the like ...


I look at Port .. they are getting stronger with their trades..
Pies, yes, lions yes .. all improving their lists ..

We haven't really lost any of our starting 22 though ..

And added acres .. feeling abit underwhelmed by trade period this year


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:45 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 16788
ScottSaunders2 wrote:
Anyone else abit concerned with our lack of trading this year .. are we just relying on natural progression or is it the fact that whilst everyone around us is improving their lists, they are doing so because they have significant retirement or the like ...


I look at Port .. they are getting stronger with their trades..
Pies, yes, lions yes .. all improving their lists ..

We haven't really lost any of our starting 22 though ..

And added acres .. feeling abit underwhelmed by trade period this year


Austin has stated numerous times that we will go to the draft this year.
We've traded first rounders the past 2 years so the strategy is sound. I understand we have a bit of FOMO this week because we've been so active in the past but I like the strategy. Get a couple of high quality young kids in the door. Preferably a tall defender and a quick mid.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:48 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
Your club's best 22 after the Trade Period in Herald Sun today

Quote:
CARLTON
B Z. Williams, J. Weitering, C. Marchbank

HB S. Docherty, L. Young, A. Saad

C B. Acres, P. Cripps, A. Cerra

HF J. Martin, C. Curnow, J. Silvagni

F J. Motlop, H. McKay, C. Durdin

FOL M. Pittonet, G. Hewett, S. Walsh

I/C M. Kennedy, T. De Koning, N. Newman, Z.Fisher

DEPTH

M. McGovern, M. Cottrell, B. Kemp, L. O’Brien, L. Plowman

DRAFT PICKS

10, 29, 49, 66


Interesting he has Marchbank ahead of McGovern.
When fit I'd have McGovern ahead of Newman as the 7th defender.

I like Boyd in the BP and Docherty in the midfield mix, pushing out one of Durdin or Silvagni.

I love Cottrell's pace and his newfound confidence.

Looking at the team, the addition of Acres fills the only gap we had, hence didn't need to look at Lachie Hunter to improve us on the wing.
There were no other trades I was interested in other than Schache for ruck-KP depth.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:59 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
ScottSaunders2 wrote:
Anyone else abit concerned with our lack of trading this year .. are we just relying on natural progression or is it the fact that whilst everyone around us is improving their lists, they are doing so because they have significant retirement or the like ...


I look at Port .. they are getting stronger with their trades..
Pies, yes, lions yes .. all improving their lists ..

We haven't really lost any of our starting 22 though ..

And added acres .. feeling abit underwhelmed by trade period this year


We got our man Acres to fill a need. Job done!

Injury happens to every club, but what Carlton copped in 2022 was off the charts. I am not expecting a repeat and know the club is focussed on getting the boys stronger and fitter for 2023.

There's a difference between need and want.

We don't need any of Taranto Hopper Dunkley Gunston McStay Hill Mitchell Frampton Weideman Jackson OMeara Corbett Bruhn Bowes Henry Berry Bedford Meek Stephens Hunter Grundy Schache Logue Tucker Horne-Francis Rioli Cordy Francis Lobb & Hunt

Grundy would be handy but too expensive and we need to re sign DeKoning and back Pittonet to find his preinjury form. The mids will be fine if they stay fit, no matter who the rucks are as long as they are competitive.

As mentioned in previous post Schache would have been cheap and good for ruck and KP insurance because I dont like Silvagni as the 2nd ruck, but we either missed out on him or chose not to follow through after he toured Ikon Park.

We prefer our midfield group with Docherty included than any of the above Traded players. Ditto HBF's.

We have invested enough in small forwards, albeit young, they are developing and dont need to add any of the above.

Really smart and timely that Austin is looking to replenish the list with a couple classy kids for list balance. Age profile looks perfect for sustained success.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:27 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 3130
The following is less about what I think will be our starting 22 at R1 2023, but more about who I think our most talented footballers are.
I have Cuningham in because he has explosive pace and break away ability and can kick a goal.
I have Boyd in because I think he has exceptional pace, run and kicking skills out of defense and we need to blood another smallish type defender who can rebound.
I have Marchbank in ahead of Young and tall Durds because I think he is simply a better footballer and he can show for a tall he can play smaller and can rebound.
I don't have small Durds or Owies in because I think Martin, Fisher and Motlop have more talent.
I have Newman in because I think he can play back but also midfield if needed (or at least on a wing).

I know this will upset many but I think Jack Silvagni doesn't make the 22. I think TDK has so much upside he will eventually go past Jack once he masters the forward craft. He is very athletic so I can see him being a ruck-forward hybrid and I think he is agile and athletic enough to not weigh down a forwardline that will have 3 talls. Now all that said I was very close to sticking Jack on the bench due to his versatility. Fans need to accept that just because Jack is a Silvagni doesn't mean he is in the best 22 if he isn't good enough. He tried his guts out and he is a good footballer but he is not a star. He is borderline Jack, and with inevitable injuries will surely play many games next year but he isn't in my best 22 once TDK arrives. I think Jack would do well to work on his tank in a bid to add a midfield string to his bow. Make himself a necessity that cannot be dropped. The true utility - forward, midfield, ruck at a pinch.

B Saad, Weitering, Marchbank
HB Docherty, McGovern, Williams
C Walsh, Cripps, Ackers
R Pittonet, Hewett, Cerra
HF Martin, TDK, Fisher
F Curnow, McKay, Motlop
INT Newman, Boyd, Kennedy, Cuningham


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 2660
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:42 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:52 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 5145
Location: Bendigo
bondiblue wrote:
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

I can only eyeball it because the numbers don’t exist in the public sphere, but we seem to do alright with score launches and clearances in general when Jack is involved in the stoppage.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:21 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 2660
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

I can only eyeball it because the numbers don’t exist in the public sphere, but we seem to do alright with score launches and clearances in general when Jack is involved in the stoppage.

:thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 16788
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

I can only eyeball it because the numbers don’t exist in the public sphere, but we seem to do alright with score launches and clearances in general when Jack is involved in the stoppage.


As the ruckman.
Yes he follows up, yes his pressure is good but his primary role is to compete in the ruck.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:40 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm
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Location: Bridge, Starship Enterprise
All these different teams being thrown around look good on paper.

But they all have a problem. PACE.

If a kick does not hit its target and we are not the greatest kicking side ..,. oh, oh.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:26 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 5145
Location: Bendigo
Blue Vain wrote:
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

I can only eyeball it because the numbers don’t exist in the public sphere, but we seem to do alright with score launches and clearances in general when Jack is involved in the stoppage.


As the ruckman.
Yes he follows up, yes his pressure is good but his primary role is to compete in the ruck.

Jack’s ruck game is like a smaller (and less good) Blicavs. He uses what he’s got to contribute to the set piece - to get the ball going our way.

As I say, I can only go off my own eye. But, I just feel like Jack’s combative style is a great source for sharked hitouts. Obviously, I’d rather see him used for variety in the attacking half like Cripps or Harry, but he’s more than good enough against the opposition #2.

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 Post subject: Re: Best 23 Team in 2023
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:22 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 19981
Location: Bondi Beach
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
london blue wrote:
You really think Sos plays ruck? He is the extra mid when thrown in the middle.


The only time you see Jack in the middle is when he is in the ruck.
That doesn't mean he is good at ruck.

So, what you are suggesting is when he is in the ruck, he's actually an extra mid.
Geez he's got crap numbers for an extra mid, especially given he's without an opponent. His opponent is doing the ruckwork.

Overrated big bodied mid is Jack. Undersized ruck. Doesn't have weapons...other than tries his heart out.

I use to think he would be Sergio Mark II, but its the wrong era for that to succeed.

I can only eyeball it because the numbers don’t exist in the public sphere, but we seem to do alright with score launches and clearances in general when Jack is involved in the stoppage.


He has a couple wins, but overall, imo, he doesnt do "alright", and given where we are heading, I want us to take the next step as a team and be much much better than "alright".

Yes he competes better against the 2nd ruck, but he still gets beaten in most games, then has a good one every now and then, as he did vs StKilda against Marshall. Marshall didnt look right in that game or didnt know how to dominate Jack with his size advantage.

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