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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:02 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
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Cazzesman wrote:
Deny the opposition the football. It is like the final 2 minute play in a game. Hard to score without the ball. Surely it's not rocket science. Keepings off, lead at the ball carrier where possible not sideways unless well in the clear, spread. Do not kick to a contest and give it up.

Deny, deny, deny.

Regards Cazzesman


Yes I was thinking earlier the challenge in the first instance is to get the ball...then play keepings off


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:02 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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CK95 wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Change of personnel in the square?
Stronger bigger bodies to steamroll?



I wonder if Vossy might eventually try the opposite. Our midfield bulls have been super this year but maybe getting some runners in there like Fisher for a burst or two would give the midfield a bit of a refresh. So that we can keep up with Rozee Butters types in second halves when Kennedy types start to slow down.

In the bigger picture we could always do with recruiting another pacy mid or two


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:04 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Sidefx wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Deny the opposition the football. It is like the final 2 minute play in a game. Hard to score without the ball. Surely it's not rocket science. Keepings off, lead at the ball carrier where possible not sideways unless well in the clear, spread. Do not kick to a contest and give it up.

Deny, deny, deny.

Regards Cazzesman

Yep, when you are down 50 at half time, time is the pressure.
And the longer you have the ball, the less time they have.
I'd rather see 3rd quarter keepings off than giving them a look in and momentum.
You save energy too.


Yep NFL. Teams get a 2 to 3 score lead often revert to the run game to kill the clock


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:15 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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I also think it's important we score. I mean 1 goal in Q3 and 1 goal in Q4 simply isn't enough. If you've got a sizeable lead at HT then you don't necessarily need to outscore the opposition in H2. But our scores in H2 have been way too small. We seem to be kicking long down the line hoping either Harry clunks it or it goes out of bounds. But this tactic isn't conducive to us scoring. We seem to lack run late. But surely it's not a fitness thing. I imagine it's more instruction. We looked better late in the Port game when we finally got a few short kicks hitting targets. So maybe the issue is more by design. Maybe we need to a. Win possession then b. Play keepings off as Caz alluded to.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:35 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
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Cazzesman wrote:
Deny the opposition the football. It is like the final 2 minute play in a game. Hard to score without the ball. Surely it's not rocket science. Keepings off, lead at the ball carrier where possible not sideways unless well in the clear, spread. Do not kick to a contest and give it up.

Deny, deny, deny.

Regards Cazzesman

Easy peasy.

There’s also got to be better recognition of who’s on the field & where. Play the opposite wing if their guns are off the field. Boot it through the interchange gate if ours are.

In this era of tinkering for the sake of tinkering, the changes made to the runners rules have opened the game up more than any other.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:18 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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GMCbris wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
We are currently the #1 team for disposals, #4 for kicks, #2 for handballs yet we are #8 for Marks.

We are also #9 for tackles, #1 for tackles inside F50, #10 for marks inside F50, #8 for contested marks, #7 inside F50 and #12 for rebound to inside F50.

Melbourne as the barometer and stats that are better, #5 marking, #4 marks inside F50 , #2 contested marks, #2 inside F50 and #7 rebound to inside F50.

Based on these stats I think the way forward is better control when we have the ball, better delivery to marking targets especially in F50 entires and vastly improving our building from the defence.
We also need to work on our contested marking to increase the turnovers, so even if we lose in the middle we can still get possession, especially in defence and transition that to scoring to keep the pressure on.
That's what has been killing us the most IMO, the transition to no score, that's if we transition past the middle at all.
So we also need to be more patient when delivering to our forwards on the transition and pick better targets rather than rushing the ball in for quick rebounds that catch us out most times making it easy for the opposition to go down the centre and score against us.

Other than this, I have no idea. :lol:
very interesting stats... thanks Sidefx

I mentioned in another thread our issues with not getting players in motion, making space ahead of the ball and therefore the ball carrier needing to kick to a contest, but to add to this, our kick in system needs serious work.

Fix both of these and the repeat entries into our defensive 50 will be reduced, which in theory, should stop these runs.

Seems like this isn't hard to fix, both are simple training drills... which can be well... "drilled" into the players.

Go blues, I feel we are very close.

G

I noticed with the Hawks that they trusted the kick in system they had and that they would more often than not win the contested marking, so they would all spread from D50 up to the F50 both creating space and more options to get the rebound all the way into the forwards or at minimum, contests in their favour.
We seem to choke it up on the wing until we are sure the ball will make it or we move it so fast the fowards are not there, then we get caught out with only 1 or 2 forwards v 3 or 4 defenders ready to go if it doesn't get turned over or go out of bounds.
We have to trust that both Harry and Charlie will beat their opponents one out almost every time.
Contested marking by wingers/mids may the problem here, because both Harry and Charlie do a lot of contested marking down the ground often leaving the F50 to the smalls or empty.
This is what it seems like on TV, maybe being at the ground it might look different.
And I'm yet to watch the replay, so I am sure there are others that have more a accurate recall of events.
Either way, I'm sure we can fix the problems then hold on for the ride.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:00 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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In the good (?) old days, you would start a fight and/or give away “professional” 15 metre penalties to slow the opposition down. Essendon* were great at doing it to us in the 80s.

I realise this is not a helpful contribution to the current discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:43 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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CK95 wrote:
What about trying to force a second ball up, where the 6-6-6 wouldn't apply (admittedly it's not an attacking approach)
I can't believe this isn't being done.... Even if you give away a free, it's enough time to get players back...

Go Blues

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:44 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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aboynamedsue wrote:
In the good (?) old days, you would start a fight and/or give away “professional” 15 metre penalties to slow the opposition down. Essendon** were great at doing it to us in the 80s.

I realise this is not a helpful contribution to the current discussion.
It's a good contribution ABNS..... and can still be done in a slightly different way... Professional frees are a part of most sports :thumbsup:

Go Blues

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:55 pm 
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Robert Walls

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I have no doubt that 'halting momentum' will be the next big structural tweak to a gameplan for coaches. Not saying that it isn't already happening but there's more and more evidence that both the 6 6 6 rule and possibly the 'stand' rule are key players in this exaggerated trend we are seeing.

Coaches are so wedded to their gamestyle that if they currently place too much emphasis on stopping run ons, it's seen as a failure of their game plan. Eventually coaches will find a balance and dedicate more time to plugging leaks before they burst in a more timely manner...as part of their game plan

Reckon we will see less 6-10 goal shifts as the year goes by


Glad to provide the stimulus for this thread :thanks:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:55 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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Posts: 113
I am also confused why it’s so hard to just play keeping’s off.

I could be wrong but it feels like we never try the switch anymore, it’s always long down the line.

The backwards-sideways-going-nowhere stuff used to be infuriating under Bolton because we weren’t able to put scores on the board. But now that we are able to generate leads why not just suck the energy out of the game for 5-10 minutes a quarter? Chasing tail is demoralising for the opponent when you’re 40 points down. Then we can revert back to direct footy.

I may also be mis-remembering, but it also seemed like we always went down the same line/wing against port and they were always set up for it, especially from kick outs. The MCG is a wide ground we should be using all the width available to us when we need to.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:42 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Everything in this game starts and stops in the midfield.
You get a goal kicked against you the next centre bounce needs to be your starting midfield that got you in front in the 1st place.
Teams get run ons it is not the chip chip that is the issue it's losing the clearances and centre bounces or poor clearances.



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:06 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Players aren't robots and like the rest of us, when under pressure we resort to what is safe.
It's reasonable to take risks and step outside your comfort zone when the stakes are low. Going for a risky 45 degree corridor kick or taking on a high risk/high reward option is a lot different early in the game or when you're 5 goals up.
When the opposition get a run on, they're no different that the get energy and belief, They chase harder, they communicate better and they definitely work harder offensively.
But let's not feel we are the only team that suffers momentum swings. As I posted elsewhere, the current premiers and best team in the AFL coughed up 6 goals in a row in Round 1. Last year, we gave up a lot of 5 goal runs. Without looking at the stats, I'd suggest we are far better this year.

The key is to analyse how the opposition are playing, how they have changed their structure and to have leaders who can adapt on field. Port would have looked at how GC exposed us through the corridor and went in with a plan to do the same. Fortunately our FD worked on it through the week and our zone protected the corridor well. We conceded the wide option and it threw out Ports planning.
It enabled us to get on top and to dominate them.
After half time they came out with a different strategy of switching the ball, moving our zone and they exposed holes in it. We couldn't adapt and their turnover game flourished and gave them belief and consequently momentum.
It will take time. The great sides have on field leaders who can adapt and impact strategically mid game/mid quarter. Watch Steven May and Jake Lever. They drive their team like a gaming console.
We're not that fortunate yet.

When the pressure was on Sunday, Weiters made as many errors as anyone. Or Cripps will try to do everything instead of trusting the system. Its takes time. But as each week goes by and another team challenges and exposes us, it gives the players real time learning opportunities. It gives the coaches game specific scenarios to teach and allows them to cater strategy specific drills at training to counter the options.
But it cant happen overnight. Basic tactics and strategies can take weeks or months to bed down. Go and watch a team train, whether it be AFL or lower levels and watch the drills. When the players are competent and confident, watch what happens when an extra footy or an extra defender is thrown into the drill. Most times it will deteriorate significantly. Because what is becoming instinctive now requires additional attention and the instinct is challenged.

So when our players have the game on their terms, they are world beaters. But when the opposition take it away from them or disrupt our flow. Like every other team, we must adapt and counter it. It's going to take time.
But look at the positives. Port closed to 2 points on Sunday before the half way mark of the last quarter. Yet we won the game.
We arrested some of their momentum, we found a way to score and our pressure rating increased. Once our players become proficient in adapting mid quarter, once they learn to understand the methods the opposition are implementing and once they instinctively understand as a collective how we can tactically counter it, we'll be a real contender.
It's a lot closer than it was this time last year. Every training session, every game review and every opportunity to play against finals sides are absolutely invaluable to us at the moment. Because we rightly view them as great learning opportunities.
Last year we went out and played a flaky game of footy. This year we are going out and practicing what we're learning. It's a huge difference. But it's rightly taking time. When you can see our deficiencies and can then see us come out with a countering strategy the following weeks, you know that we're finally learning to become a real team with an integrated game style with substance. That's the sweetest part of it all.
Just my opinion. Sorry for the long winded ramble.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:26 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I can’t believe no-one has suggested “go the biff” yet.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:04 pm 
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Robert Walls

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What about we give every player a sachet of tomato sauce and when needed, call a blood-rule time out to regroup...good way of getting a player off the bench we need

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:11 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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AGRO wrote:
I can’t believe no-one has suggested “go the biff” yet.
:lol:

Or a streaker as in the 1982 GF :smoking:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:41 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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CFC8795 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
I can’t believe no-one has suggested “go the biff” yet.
:lol:

Or a streaker as in the 1982 GF :smoking:



Ms D’Amico says hello

:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:48 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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aboynamedsue wrote:
In the good (?) old days, you would start a fight and/or give away “professional” 15 metre penalties to slow the opposition down. Essendon** were great at doing it to us in the 80s.

I realise this is not a helpful contribution to the current discussion.

Bring back the biff.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:26 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Blue Vain wrote:
Players aren't robots and like the rest of us, when under pressure we resort to what is safe.
It's reasonable to take risks and step outside your comfort zone when the stakes are low. Going for a risky 45 degree corridor kick or taking on a high risk/high reward option is a lot different early in the game or when you're 5 goals up.
When the opposition get a run on, they're no different that the get energy and belief, They chase harder, they communicate better and they definitely work harder offensively.
But let's not feel we are the only team that suffers momentum swings. As I posted elsewhere, the current premiers and best team in the AFL coughed up 6 goals in a row in Round 1. Last year, we gave up a lot of 5 goal runs. Without looking at the stats, I'd suggest we are far better this year.

The key is to analyse how the opposition are playing, how they have changed their structure and to have leaders who can adapt on field. Port would have looked at how GC exposed us through the corridor and went in with a plan to do the same. Fortunately our FD worked on it through the week and our zone protected the corridor well. We conceded the wide option and it threw out Ports planning.
It enabled us to get on top and to dominate them.
After half time they came out with a different strategy of switching the ball, moving our zone and they exposed holes in it. We couldn't adapt and their turnover game flourished and gave them belief and consequently momentum.
It will take time. The great sides have on field leaders who can adapt and impact strategically mid game/mid quarter. Watch Steven May and Jake Lever. They drive their team like a gaming console.
We're not that fortunate yet.

When the pressure was on Sunday, Weiters made as many errors as anyone. Or Cripps will try to do everything instead of trusting the system. Its takes time. But as each week goes by and another team challenges and exposes us, it gives the players real time learning opportunities. It gives the coaches game specific scenarios to teach and allows them to cater strategy specific drills at training to counter the options.
But it cant happen overnight. Basic tactics and strategies can take weeks or months to bed down. Go and watch a team train, whether it be AFL or lower levels and watch the drills. When the players are competent and confident, watch what happens when an extra footy or an extra defender is thrown into the drill. Most times it will deteriorate significantly. Because what is becoming instinctive now requires additional attention and the instinct is challenged.

So when our players have the game on their terms, they are world beaters. But when the opposition take it away from them or disrupt our flow. Like every other team, we must adapt and counter it. It's going to take time.
But look at the positives. Port closed to 2 points on Sunday before the half way mark of the last quarter. Yet we won the game.
We arrested some of their momentum, we found a way to score and our pressure rating increased. Once our players become proficient in adapting mid quarter, once they learn to understand the methods the opposition are implementing and once they instinctively understand as a collective how we can tactically counter it, we'll be a real contender.
It's a lot closer than it was this time last year. Every training session, every game review and every opportunity to play against finals sides are absolutely invaluable to us at the moment. Because we rightly view them as great learning opportunities.
Last year we went out and played a flaky game of footy. This year we are going out and practicing what we're learning. It's a huge difference. But it's rightly taking time. When you can see our deficiencies and can then see us come out with a countering strategy the following weeks, you know that we're finally learning to become a real team with an integrated game style with substance. That's the sweetest part of it all.
Just my opinion. Sorry for the long winded ramble.


Thanks for taking the time to write that BV. Wish I had your footy brain.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:29 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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I think the problem is caused by a lot of things, but most convincing source of the phenomena called Momentum is the 6-6-6 rule.

We dominate clearances with inside outside mids Cripps Walsh Hewett Cerra Kennedy, when Pitto rucks.

They can't do it on their own for 4 quarters. They tire because there's no one to rotate with the motors required to keep intensity up in the contest.

Owies Durdin can't do it, and Martin and Fisher don't do it enough let alone a different body shape to perform the role of the Fab 5.

It says to me, as good as they are, a couple have to be upgraded. We need players who can play midfield and forward to play Voss' Game Plan.

Carroll, Honey, Philp, maybe Stocker and Kemp in the future. The talent is there but untried.


LOB Setterfield Newnes Cottrell wing debate is another issue imo and they can't be relied on for a taxing running game as it is.


Genuine Intercept Mark (3rd Tall) is another specialised and important role. We're missing Marchbank and McGovern.

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