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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:06 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Crusader wrote:
I haven’t watched a replay yet, but I’d be keen to hear from others any insight into how Martin & Owies went statless in the last quarter.

Jack put in a big third quarter, getting himself into the action at half back, but (Fisher aside) the crumbers and half forwards were a piss poor group in the second half.


Go and watch Jack Martin play live and focus on him. When others are jogging around the field, he sprints up and down the ground creating options, drawing defenders which creates space for his team mates and attacking the ball/player as hard as anyone.
If his body can hold together and he can stay on the park long enough to build his endurance, he'll be great value. I watched him yesterday when he didn't have the footy and couldn't believe his workrate and application.

Owies and Durdin didn't have big games but we still had 16 inside tackles which is very good. It's our connection between half back and half forward that's creating us issues.


I agree with the last statement.
I think your been very generous when it comes to Martin.
He doesn’t attack the ball/player as hard as anyone. That’s crap. Actually the opposite at times.
Martin coasts
He has had it easy as a footballer.
Looks a million dollars
Silky skills
But simply goes missing for too long
When tried in the midfield has been useless
I also reckon he hasn’t been fit enough his whole career and got away with it


I read your posts about Jack Martin so I go and watch him play the game.
He needs to be more consistent but he busts a gut. So your posts that equate players to dreamt up remuneration receive the contempt they deserve.

So before you slag off players, go along and watch them. Watch what they do with the ball but more importantly, watch what they do without it. Watch how and where they run. What they do to create instead of what you see in your TV screen. That's far more productive than posting crap about dropping player A and replacing him with player B at the drop off a hat. Especially when player B is injured, underprepared or just not up to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:32 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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With a very brutal and physically game style we can't go the distance with it yet. That can only improve with games under the belt. So far this year we have got to 6 to 8 goal leads in 4 games and to struggle to hang on late. That include the NAB game against Melbourne.

Remember us laughing at Richmond choking late in games in 2017 playing the same hard, physical style. Things changed come September and the next few Septembers after that. Thing is too, when getting swamped by sides coming home, we have found a way to hold on. Should be fun to watch when the 3rd, and then the 4th qtr is like the first 2 when we adapt to the style of play. I'm sticking with the glass half full for now. those first halves are exhilarating. just need the fitness now to carry it though.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:03 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Let's not forget we were 21 points down in the last quarter against the Tigers and won the game. IIRC, the Bulldogs kicked 8 in a row against Melbourne in round 1. Momentum is hard to obtain and very hard to halt when teams have it. The very best teams struggle with it. At the moment we are capitalising when we have it and we're pulling teams up without getting run over most of the time.
PA were within a goal with 10+ minutes to go yesterday and we won the game. It's not as if we fell in the last minute. There's a lot of work to do but I'd rather be in our shoes than 12 other teams.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:24 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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bondiblue wrote:
keogh wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
keogh wrote:
Having read the posts and after 5 rounds it’s becoming clear that Freo are one of the better teams.
As Darcy improves after being injured and a late start their clearence numbers will get better.

It’s obvious that if a team gains an advantage against us in this area we are in a lot of trouble because we don’t work hard enough to reduce space for teams to not slice us up.
Pittonet dominated yesterday. If Lycett had been available it would have been a different result.
Posters once again arn’t looking at the obvious.
Once Port got the clearance dominance we had no answer.
Our percentage is 102 mathematically amazing for a 4-1 win /loss ratio.

Voss needs to address this area pronto.
It was a massive problem last year.

We are still an average team


Wrong again keogh, we have improved massively to be an average team.


You make a good point.

I don't know how keogh can predict the result if Lycett played.

Once we stopped trying and felt we had done all the work needed (a trait from the past imo), Port were allowed to cmme back.

Blues looked incredible in the first half, with or without Pitto, Lycett, jack.
Have to give credit where credit is due. The overlap running was a result of effort and connection. Period.

Pretty easy
Pittonet beat Hayes easy
And JOS beat anyone else. Port had nobody to back Hayes up.
That potentially gave us better first use at stoppages
Once Port started to extract it fron the stoppage they dominated because we are still terrible at protecting space
TDK has to come in this week
JOs won’t get 8 hit outs against Lobb
Darcy is an excellent ruckman
Lose the stoppages and it’s game over for us based on the first 5 rounds


I see your point.

But I keep going back to fitness levels required to play Voss System for 3 and half quarters instead of 2, or 1, to win comfortably.
Hewett Cerra and Walsh can't play those roles with the required level of intensity for 4 quarters. Adding Cripps will help, but Kennedy going missing for 2 weeks hasn't been helpful.

No other players run through the midfield.

That's why Voss needed hard endurance runners who like the physical side of the game in Cottrell and Newnes, like them or not.

Once the intensity dropped, and lets face it Hewett was doing it all himself with walsh...against that preface, then your bit comes in

Quote:
Port started to extract it fron the stoppage they dominated because we are still terrible at protecting space



I thought their ruckman started getting the tapouts to their advantage. Do not know what happened to Pittonet (maybe his back flared) up a bit. also Port had a flanker charge into the middle and put pressure on our ball carrier if we won the possession out of the middle. At that stage I thought we were doing 1 too many handballs hence Walsh getting caught or being placed uder presssure affecting his kicks. As a result our kicks were shallower and their half backs were playing 10m in front of our forwards and easily marked these balls. I also think they pressed up around any stoppage knowing that we would handball backwards and put extra pressure on that final receiver. As they played an extra down back our pressured kicks were not to the forwards advantage, hence the rebound ala the Hawthorn game. I thought all these occurred ( and more probably) changing the face of the game.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:26 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Great take Blue vain. On the golf course so could only watch the scores. As disappointing as coughing up a 50 pt lead is, we held our own in the last quarter and we prevailed. I watched the replay expecting a capitulation . But that’s not what I saw. It was through luck and good play. We’ve got lots of work to do and these games remind us all. But great to be winning ugly.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:35 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Crusader wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Crusader wrote:
I haven’t watched a replay yet, but I’d be keen to hear from others any insight into how Martin & Owies went statless in the last quarter.

Jack put in a big third quarter, getting himself into the action at half back, but (Fisher aside) the crumbers and half forwards were a piss poor group in the second half.


Go and watch Jack Martin play live and focus on him. When others are jogging around the field, he sprints up and down the ground creating options, drawing defenders which creates space for his team mates and attacking the ball/player as hard as anyone.
If his body can hold together and he can stay on the park long enough to build his endurance, he'll be great value. I watched him yesterday when he didn't have the footy and couldn't believe his workrate and application.

Owies and Durdin didn't have big games but we still had 16 inside tackles which is very good. It's our connection between half back and half forward that's creating us issues.

I’m firmly entrenched in Martin’s corner. I’ve posted elsewhere about the value of his off ball work and have no doubt that he’s in our best side no matter how you want to look at it.

I’m just wondering where he was in the last quarter. Was he on the bench? I know we were running pretty close to our full quota of rotations in the last quarter… I’ve just got a gut feeling that we have a management issue.



Maybe, but a lot of people here judge a player purely by the numbers. You cannot see on TV what is happening off the ball or who is running to cover outlets or provide an option. Martin is not a problem, nor were the wingers on the weekend. Cottrell, Setterfield and Newnes all ran hard both ways


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:39 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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jim wrote:
With a very brutal and physically game style we can't go the distance with it yet. That can only improve with games under the belt. So far this year we have got to 6 to 8 goal leads in 4 games and to struggle to hang on late. That include the NAB game against Melbourne.

Remember us laughing at Richmond choking late in games in 2017 playing the same hard, physical style. Things changed come September and the next few Septembers after that. Thing is too, when getting swamped by sides coming home, we have found a way to hold on. Should be fun to watch when the 3rd, and then the 4th qtr is like the first 2 when we adapt to the style of play. I'm sticking with the glass half full for now. those first halves are exhilarating. just need the fitness now to carry it though.



Yes having watched them live for 3 games this year I think this is partly to do with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:41 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Blue Vain wrote:
Let's not forget we were 21 points down in the last quarter against the Tigers and won the game. IIRC, the Bulldogs kicked 8 in a row against Melbourne in round 1. Momentum is hard to obtain and very hard to halt when teams have it. The very best teams struggle with it. At the moment we are capitalising when we have it and we're pulling teams up without getting run over most of the time.
PA were within a goal with 10+ minutes to go yesterday and we won the game. It's not as if we fell in the last minute. There's a lot of work to do but I'd rather be in our shoes than 12 other teams.



Yes everyone lets keep the glass half full. :smile:
We know its a long year and the team has lots of improvement in it but we have 4 wins from 5 games so be happy!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:52 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Doesn't help when the momentum swings against us we have some suspect players down back. Who would have thought we'd be missing McG.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:14 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Yes of course it's glass half full. We are games clear in the 8 after all. And yes Voss has been there all of 10 minutes so lots yet to bed in. I think the stress is this team has a reputation for not being able to stop the momentum swings. It's not like this is a new phenomenon. It makes me seriously question if at least some of this problem is personnel related. There's a lot of players who panic real bad. Do these guys simply lack that mental fortitude? Voss has to weed out those who just don't get it. Need players made of stern stuff. Who won't drop their bundle so easily. The Park dropped chestmark. The Setterfield lack of peripheral awareness. The X2 mind blowingly stupid handballs by Young. Durdin refusing to contest a one on one at CHF. These sorts of things. The players need to show some backbone and they'd want to start showing it soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:19 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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TheDenominator wrote:
The_Cranium wrote:
Just watching the replay. We were all over Port for the first half of the 3rd quarter. Absolutely dominant. Difference to the first 2 quarters was we couldn't score. That was where it started to break down. Our forward entries were poor, but Port flooded back to stop the big boys. Then it Seychelles. Port kicked a couple of tall good goals. Most telling though was the repeat entries. Our Achilles heal showed through again in our inability to get it past half back from the kick in. Old habits die hard. When the heat came, we reverted back to our old ways. Kick long to a pack repeatedly. Problem was Port were sweating on it. Knew that's what was coming. They spoiled forward where players were waiting for it and in they went again until eventually they got the goal.

From there the momentum completely swung. We went into our shell and instead of moving to make space for ourselves, started only worrying about our opponent to the point where we forgot to attack. We forgot to run. In essence we just shit ourselves. The demons of the past haven't been exorcised yet. The belief is better, but hasn't got to the point where the 5 goal runs can be stopped yet. The players like the supporters when a team comes just think, here we go again, this always happens and no one is strong enough to say not today.


Nice one Cranium.
We were 44 points up with around 8 minutes to play in the 3rd and missed targets or made poor choices going inside 50s up until that point. I watched the replay and Cerra, Setterfield, Cottrell and Martin all had opportunities to hid up leads but didnt. Inside 50s to that point were 9-4 in our favour. Port kicked a couple of goals against the run (Burton one of two long ones and Boak) but Martin had a chance to kick a steadier with a little over 5 to play in the 3rd. Margin would have been 37 points instead it was out on the full and with 4 minutes to play Rozee kicks a banana from the boundary and all of a sudden the margin is 25 points Port have some belief and it was game on.


Good point about not taking chances. Well that is another form of laziness.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:23 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
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TheDenominator wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Watched the 1st half again geez the score could have been so much better.
Newes on the run and set shot misses
Jack two gettable from in front
Harry missed everything from 35 out
Setterfield missed from goal square
Fish in decision

Easily 6 to 7 goals shy of where we should of been despite being 49 points up.

Like the 2's we dominated and should have made more of their chances.
The third quarter in reserves game they were all over tigers and didn't convert.

You ask yourself is it a confidence issue and do they have enough belief in themselves

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk


yep, thought we could have been 12 goals up at half time


Still would have won by 3 pts


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:28 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
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Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Crusader wrote:
I haven’t watched a replay yet, but I’d be keen to hear from others any insight into how Martin & Owies went statless in the last quarter.

Jack put in a big third quarter, getting himself into the action at half back, but (Fisher aside) the crumbers and half forwards were a piss poor group in the second half.


Go and watch Jack Martin play live and focus on him. When others are jogging around the field, he sprints up and down the ground creating options, drawing defenders which creates space for his team mates and attacking the ball/player as hard as anyone.
If his body can hold together and he can stay on the park long enough to build his endurance, he'll be great value. I watched him yesterday when he didn't have the footy and couldn't believe his workrate and application.

Owies and Durdin didn't have big games but we still had 16 inside tackles which is very good. It's our connection between half back and half forward that's creating us issues.


I agree with the last statement.
I think your been very generous when it comes to Martin.
He doesn’t attack the ball/player as hard as anyone. That’s crap. Actually the opposite at times.
Martin coasts
He has had it easy as a footballer.
Looks a million dollars
Silky skills
But simply goes missing for too long
When tried in the midfield has been useless
I also reckon he hasn’t been fit enough his whole career and got away with it


I read your posts about Jack Martin so I go and watch him play the game.
He needs to be more consistent but he busts a gut. So your posts that equate players to dreamt up remuneration receive the contempt they deserve.

So before you slag off players, go along and watch them. Watch what they do with the ball but more importantly, watch what they do without it. Watch how and where they run. What they do to create instead of what you see in your TV screen. That's far more productive than posting crap about dropping player A and replacing him with player B at the drop off a hat. Especially when player B is injured, underprepared or just not up to it.


Martin is an overrated player.
He was brought to our club to bolster our midfield. Not to exclusively play as a half forward.
If he runs so well and busts a gut as you say why isn’t he playing further up the ground or at the stoppages.
Martin does have excellent hands and is very good over his head.
What he isn’t good act is going in and getting the hard ball from my observation.
I don’t go to too many games living in WA but he was pathetic against Hawthorn when we were beaten in the middle. That was my observation when I was observing at a game.
Another issue which relates to Martin and every player on the list.

We are a work in progress. At the minute Voss is 5 games into his coaching tenure. We clearly need to work harder and have a clear system when the opposition have the ball in space. We get scored against way too easy. It’s up to Voss to work on improving the performance so we are harder to play against
That’s what the top teams do.
Which means he has to work out which players can carry out the plan.
Hopefully Martin can be part of it but if his last quarter was anything to go by then he needs to improve
It was the main reason Teague got the bullet. Clearly it wasn’t all his fault. That’s why it’s imperative the board don’t get impatient and sack another coac before his contract is up.
It took a few years and a few stumbles before it all clicked for Melbourne Ditto Tigers
I still believe some blokes on our list play for themselves too much.
This needs to be weeded out


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:07 am 
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Craig Bradley
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If at the start of the year, we were offered 4/1 after 5 rounds we would've taken that in a heartbeat. So that's a terrific result.
BUT !!!!
If we in finals contention towards years end what would be a problem ?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
We are at 102% that's low with no cushion against any touch up we will probably cop along the way.
If you get a side down, then finish the friggin' job !

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:24 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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murraycray wrote:
If at the start of the year, we were offered 4/1 after 5 rounds we would've taken that in a heartbeat. So that's a terrific result.
BUT !!!!
If we in finals contention towards years end what would be a problem ?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
We are at 102% that's low with no cushion against any touch up we will probably cop along the way.
If you get a side down, then finish the friggin' job !


But, but, but! The best team in the competition by a far margin had Port Adelaide goalless at half time last week. Port came out after half time and had 11 scoring shots to Melbournes 6 and outscored them. I don't recall any Melbourne supporters having a whinge about beating a preliminary final side from the past 2 years.
We're demolishing teams in bursts at the moment and it's getting us over the line.
I recall years ago when we put the foot down in the premiership quarter and blew teams away. That was celebrated.
FFS, some of you lot would find a pay packet on the ground and whinge about how much tax was taken out.

No one has said we're a complete unit. The coaches are continually telling us we're a work in progress. Take the 4-1 and enjoy it. Save the saltiness for when we lose.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:29 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Well said Blue Vain!
Remember everyone, we finally managed to break our 1 game losing streak :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:56 am 
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Geoff Southby

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Blue Vain wrote:
murraycray wrote:
If at the start of the year, we were offered 4/1 after 5 rounds we would've taken that in a heartbeat. So that's a terrific result.
BUT !!!!
If we in finals contention towards years end what would be a problem ?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
We are at 102% that's low with no cushion against any touch up we will probably cop along the way.
If you get a side down, then finish the friggin' job !


But, but, but! The best team in the competition by a far margin had Port Adelaide goalless at half time last week. Port came out after half time and had 11 scoring shots to Melbournes 6 and outscored them. I don't recall any Melbourne supporters having a whinge about beating a preliminary final side from the past 2 years.
We're demolishing teams in bursts at the moment and it's getting us over the line.
I recall years ago when we put the foot down in the premiership quarter and blew teams away. That was celebrated.
FFS, some of you lot would find a pay packet on the ground and whinge about how much tax was taken out.

No one has said we're a complete unit. The coaches are continually telling us we're a work in progress. Take the 4-1 and enjoy it. Save the saltiness for when we lose.


We are lucky to be 4-1
It’s not about the wins or the losses.
It’s about building a structure that will stand up to pressure .
The club for too long thought it was about just wins and losses at board level.
As you and I agreed on once :wink: its about stability and patience
Let the coaching staff have their 3 years and see where we are at then
It’s not an over night thing


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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And remember, it's only 2 more weeks til North Melbourne do their annual job on us. So at least we'll get that out of the way in the first half of the season...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:13 am 
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Robert Walls

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Blue Vain wrote:
Let's not forget we were 21 points down in the last quarter against the Tigers and won the game. IIRC, the Bulldogs kicked 8 in a row against Melbourne in round 1. Momentum is hard to obtain and very hard to halt when teams have it. The very best teams struggle with it. At the moment we are capitalising when we have it and we're pulling teams up without getting run over most of the time.
PA were within a goal with 10+ minutes to go yesterday and we won the game. It's not as if we fell in the last minute. There's a lot of work to do but I'd rather be in our shoes than 12 other teams.


I have no doubt that 'halting momentum' will be the next big structural tweak to a gameplan for coaches. Not saying that it isn't already happening but there's more and more evidence that both the 6 6 6 rule and possibly the 'stand' rule are key players in this exaggerated trend we are seeing.

Coaches are so wedded to their gamestyle that if they currently place too much emphasis on stopping run ons, it's seen as a failure of their game plan. Eventually coaches will find a balance and dedicate more time to plugging leaks before they burst in a more timely manner...as part of their game plan

Reckon we will see less 6-10 goal shifts as the year goes by.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:41 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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keogh wrote:
We are lucky to be 4-1


No. We'd be lucky to win Tattslotto.
We're 4-1 because we've won 4 games.

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