Austin has been average, he was very fortunate to survive last year’s review….

The question was, how do they regenerate after losing players like those named. Their academy has produced 3 of their top 10 players. Gulden and Campbell will be in that category very soon.
No one is doubting the investment they make or the great development but if you don't believe they are gaining significant benefit from their academy, you're dreaming.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I still believe our top 22-25 can beat anyone. It's our next level and depth that is the issue.

Names like O'Brien Dow Setterfield Cottrell look good in parts but don't do enough consistently and for 4 quarters. When has one been in the Top 5 on ground? We need greater contribution from our 25-35 ranked players.

I think Williamson Ed Curnow Parks Newnes Philp will be gone. Then some of O'Brien Dow Cottrell Setterfield Stocker Fogarty Cuningham Martin Hayes Honey will be moved on

We need improvement and improved fitness in 2023 from Kemp Carroll McDonald Motlop Williams McGovern Marchbank Durdin Young TDK Pittonet Mirkov to really improve

Then we need to add some drafts picks and some smart depth players. We need genuine A Grade young talent coming through. I believe we need a genuine mature No.1 Ruck and I would chase Goldstein. He could easily play for 3 years and would help our midfield. I would also look at a "Callum Sinclair" type that can be depth and come in and fill KPF or Ruck when needed

The way Voss has been speaking all year that this is a long term development program says to me they have doubts about our list and needs a "refresh"

Big test for Austin this year. He said we are going to the draft. At the moment we have 11, 29, 61 & 65. Maybe a pick for Jones. He will need to add more to this and get some talent through the door without hurting our Salary Cap

I hope Voss learns from 2009.

I'd hate to see us win a final, get rolled the week after by a kick or something, and then deciding we're closer than we are, and retaining list cloggers/adding veterans rather than going to the draft as planned.

As much as the "trust the process" mantra pisses me off as we threaten a humiliating finals disqualification, I agree with sticking to the draft plan.

There will be far more to discuss when the season's over, but when it comes to delisting players I really hope we remain focused on two questions: (1) does this player have any exceptional qualities, and (2) is he improving? That's why I will defend LOB against his detractors, especially when his biggest failing - composure - is the one most readily addressed with experience. I am more willing to part ways with the likes of Setterfield, who is a serviceable player but doesn't really get a tick on either of the above questions. The real conundrum is someone like Dow, who we think has/had some exceptional qualities but seems so far off it mentally that he's buried those qualities. Can we rediscover them? Were they ever really there? Therein lies the player development challenge.

Our core side for 2023

B: Boyd Young McGovern
HB: Docherty Weitering Saad
C: Williams Cripps Fisher
HF: Cerra McKay Motlop
F: Silvagni Curnow Owies
Foll: Pittonet Hewett Walsh
Int: Kennedy TDK Marchbank Durdin
Plus: Kemp Carroll Mirkov McDonald Newman

Then everyone else is up for discussion.

I would get:

Goldstein (FA)
Sinclair (DFA)
4-5 good draft picks
1-2 solid trades
1-2 DFA's

Good post

Our squad is not good enough. Additionally, we have too many injury prone players.

Ultimately in my view it comes down to good culture and player development. Geelong has this in spades. It has the knack of turning ordinary players into good players. We rely way too much on our superstars.

Listening to Voss and the coaches I think they understand that. My feel as they have believed from the start we lack genuine depth. They have always talked about it taking time, developing a culture and game plan over time.

Every week it's that same best players for us and the same players not doing enough.

Of Course we have dropped off. We are not getting the same output or consistant output from Weitering, Cripps, Hewitt, McKay, Martin, Fisher, JSOS, Kennedy. Injuries to Pitto. TDK and JSOS tired. Setterfield, Newnes, Plowman not up to standard.

If Cripps, Weitering, McKay are out of sorts, this would hurt any team let alone us with hardly any depth.

We are playing like a team afraid of failing, have no confidence and look tired after all the injuries we had.

Hate to say it we were better without out so called stars coming back.

We maybe from the lack of fitness cant sustain any pressure, or do we not understand we need to pressure in a game.

I dont get us. What the hell has happened to Cripps and McKay ? Why does Walsh always get caught holding the ball? Why does Docherty just hoist the ball out of the backline ? Why did all our forwards go up the ground; only to let Brisbane out the back for so many easy goals on the weekend? Why dont we tap the ball back from the middle and hand ball it forward like we did for half a season?

I have no answers. I thought we had changed.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that our top players are the only ones that are "allegedly" leading the way and doing no wrong.
And I get that you're only as good as the bottom six, however when your top six are not delivering consistently (or even on the park) than the bottom six are irrelevant.

E.g. Collingwood's senior players all know how to lead, they all know how to step up and change the game to be on their terms or at least even it out.
They all have the experience, tenacity and desire to do this and they already know how to win at all costs and the bottom six then fall inline.
It also adds to the teams depth because of the mental attitude with the senior players lifting them up during the game.
It is something that has happened all around us for years with other teams, there are always really good finds in the draft/trading everyone else misses out on, especially us.
I know a lot of it comes back to systems, development and coaching, but it is also very heavily relied on with on field leadership and action.

So with this in mind you can see why our midfield has issues when Hewett is not in there, he comes from one of these leadership/playing systems.

If we are going to trade more players in, then we need to start by adding more depth to the midfield with fringe/A grade players from successful win at all cost midfields, like Hewett was. We need more leaders with experience and durability IMO.

we haven't changed unfortunately those close wins early on the year was like a band aid,we are to slow especially from defence and our mids are slow. Silvagni recruiting really stuffed the club.

I think we are fine in terms of leadership. Difference for me is Collingwood have brought genuine young talent through the door in the last two years with good skills and talent. Daicos, Henry, Ginnivan Carmichael Poulter McGuiness Johnson etc. They have also had little injury issues apart from Grundy and Cameron has stepped up

They were also a well drilled side prior to this year. McRae has been able to build on that. We are starting from near rock bottom in many ways and are still learning

I think there may a bit of that, but our development has been pretty poor also.
And as I said before the on field leadership has not been there for them as well.
Major contributing factors to what we see now.
It's not all that bad but we need more heads that think they can win all the time and will die trying.

I will have to respectfully disagree, we've brought in a bit of talent also.
Our leadership group is no where near the strength of a Pendlebury, nor are they able to deliver as consistently as he does and therefore are not as reliable.
Don't get me wrong, they are all having a good go and growing but we are still a way off of other teams.

Question:

How many draftees since Walsh in 2019 have stepped straight in and made a difference?

We have drafted

Brodie Kemp
Josh Deluca
Sam Ramsay
Corey Durdin
Jack Carroll
Alex Mirkov
Jordan Boyd
Jesse Motlop
Sam Durdin
Will Hayes

There is some young talent but we need a lot more and better. I wouldn't think any have to this point stepped up and improved our side

I think C.Durdin, Motlop and Boyd are all ticks (so far). Kemp and Carroll could work out.

Agree. Mirkov is the other for me

Issue is none have come in and made much of a difference and added to our side (yet)

They can't all be a Walsh, they need to be able to play a role in a defined structure.
Just like Collingwood seem to have done. Plus not all of their picks are A graders or even B graders and as we've seen with Richmond and Hawthorn, outside of their respective structures they are most likely average footballers that look like diamonds at their clubs.
And as you've stated, Fly has just developed their game plan as a better version of what they had.
Our better version of what we had is almost anything, Voss has had to retrain the team to be defensive first.........the opposite of what it was.
Our structure this year is a lot better than years before and so far we haven't drafted for specific roles to play the Voss brand so we can only really speak from now onwards.

As for the list you've provided; C.Durdin, Carroll, Mirkov, Boyd and Motlop will be good players and will make a difference, especially if they were in a club that already had been playing a defined structure for a few years.

Kemp was injured when drafted and has already played multiple roles in the VFL, playing him to his strengths and what he was drafted for might be the difference but we will need time to get him there. The same thing Voss is trying to do with Dow.

I'm not sold on Hayes mainly due to his age but you never know, hopefully he gets a gig in the middle this week and kills it.

As for Ramsay and Deluca, you can't get every pick right.
Maybe Ramsay was just the unfortunate product of poor development of past which we know about from the review and what Voss has alluded to.

I get that.

No drama...there was a bunch of names quoted, questioning how they do it? ie alluding to the quality they pick up from the draft and still do well when they lose them, or in the case of Allir...pushed ou.. You responded with one word "Academy". I didnt miss that at all.

I didnt disagree with that point, in fact, I added the names who were from the Academy in support of your point, that were not mentioned.

Sorry about the confusion.

Point is Sydney has done much better than Carlton and most teams from the Draft...even without the Academy....Adding the Academy has helped in recent years, but their success this century hasn't come from Academy recruits, moreso Cola and my point is



I know an ex Pies Executive whose son plays for Sydney. We gone to the footy together. He is rapt his sonios at the Swans because of its culture and development program.

I'm not in lala land BV. I know a bit about them and I'm sharing it with our blue bethren on this site

...now, now ...no need to get all tough on me....especially today. I'm pretty sensitive after all this criticism of Carlton in the last 24 hours, after our upward trajectory has been marred and interrupted by injury, which many turncoats and media have conveniently parked to have a go at Voss, Austin, the club, the captain.... With respect

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue