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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:56 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Austin said he was looking to improve Pick 29 and was going to take 4 picks into the draft

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Sidefx wrote:
Nope, not saying that at all.
What I have been saying is that you

can't just blame the players solely.


Agree
I thought you were advocating Carlton was to blame for his failure during his 3 year tenure.

I know Carlton's development for the 2 decades prior to setterfield was putrid
I also know that Teague's game plan had flaws
I thought Setterfield was inconsistent, lazy and a ball watcher.
Pulled his finger out in the last month of the year: too late.


Voss has already shown this year what a better development system, playing players in the positions they were drafted for and in roles that highlight their strengths can do if they want to do the work. We've all seen it and the fact we have seen it only after one year highlights how poor it has been at the club.

The whole football world criticised Teague's lack of thought or commitment to defense with his game plan. Lets get that straight. The list didn't change but the game plan did with Vossy.
Setterfield was average under both regimes.

I can't buy the point Development impacted Setterfield under Voss, and stifled him under Teague.

He was given a chance on the wing. He failed. His inside ability is questionable. He doesn't hunt the ball. He loves to receive and kick blindly. He was tried as an inside mid too and failed. He tagged Oliver and Oliver had 28 possessions and involved in 8 scoring shots.


Maturity at 18yo no matter how much you want it to be true for all kids is as rare as hens teeth, no matter how many courses they do or lectures they attend, they're still kids. Our society no longer demands kids to mature by that age anymore and it hasn't for a long time, yet all of a sudden we expect kids playing sport to?
I personally believe, if the AFL want to have less hits and misses with drafting kids then we need to raise the age to 21 and have a national seconds competition.

Good point.

2 players can have the same development, coach and club but its a fact of life that some kids succeed and others fail. Its a fact of life. Survival of the fittest. Clubs cant wait 5-6 years to see signs. We've obviously seen enough of Setterfield and Dow. Lucky for Dow he's got a contract.


And I'd say the fact the club has come out saying how poor our player development has been is enough proof for me we have failed a lot of our kids, not just Setters.

What period was "the club" referring to? 2020-2021? I don't think so.

I wish him the best at the cheats, but I can't see how a change will benefit him TBH (and I'm secretly hoping it doesn't).
He's already had 4 coaches, 4 systems and even more roles.


I'm glad to see the back of him TBH. Can't wait to replace him, Fogarty, Dow, Ed, with better players. The rest will come next year. After 2023 I expect it to be painful to let go players who are not at the end of their career (Plowman and Newman).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.

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Is mired neck-deep in an unwholesome bog
Experience, like the rising of dawn
Reveals the path he should not have gone

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:43 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:49 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Riley Collier-Dawkins gone.

In the same boat as Setters. Too good for VFL, struggles at AFL. I did like RCD but he lacks the leg speed required. It will be interesting to see if he gets picked up.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:23 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

It was an interesting decision to give Philp a two year extension at the end of 2020 when he still had a year on his contract.

And are you sure about Fogarty? I think he’s out of contract but is going to be retained either on rookie list or primary list (like Ed)?

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Is mired neck-deep in an unwholesome bog
Experience, like the rising of dawn
Reveals the path he should not have gone

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:56 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:18 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Time to make the 8 now coach


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:36 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
Posts: 721
Paddycripps wrote:
Time to make the 8 now coach



100%

first year, we missed by the barest of margins, but second year (outside of some unforseen tragedy) we have the playing list to not only make finals, but feature in week 2 and 3.

Honestly, we should have made it this year ...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:26 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Posts: 16786
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.


Obviously I have missed the "in joke"?
Casey Voss as a top 30 pick? What have I missed?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:32 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
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Location: Bendigo
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.

Austin said we were hunting a pick between 10 & 29, so I’d say we’re shopping next year’s first with the caveat beating that we’d need a pick 3rd or 4th from the same draft in return.

GWS or Sydney the obvious targets. Interestingly, they hold five of the six picks between 14 and 19.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:51 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/12371 ... ade-period

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Is mired neck-deep in an unwholesome bog
Experience, like the rising of dawn
Reveals the path he should not have gone

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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aboynamedsue wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

It was an interesting decision to give Philp a two year extension at the end of 2020 when he still had a year on his contract.

And are you sure about Fogarty? I think he’s out of contract but is going to be retained either on rookie list or primary list (like Ed)?
Nah not sure, just going off the tracker here and the fact that there's been no talk at all about either an extension nor delisting.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:20 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1212
Blue Vain wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.


Obviously I have missed the "in joke"?
Casey Voss as a top 30 pick? What have I missed?


15. Casey Voss (SANFL - Sturt)

The son of Michael, Casey Voss has now won Sturt's best and fairest and earned SANFL team of the year honours in successive seasons. He also won the Fos Williams Medal for best-on-ground in the annual SANFL vs. WAFL match.

Having just turned 22 years old in September, Voss has developed into the premier general defender outside the AFL and has impressed with averages of 23.8 disposals, 8.8 marks, one contested mark and 5.3 rebound 50s in the SANFL. Voss also secured 29 disposals and 15 marks in this year's SANFL vs. WAFL match.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/ ... hcroft-top

Quote:
A consistent year on year improver, Voss possesses a ready-to-go and well-rounded game with how he intercepts behind the ball, generates drive by foot and restricts the influence of his direct opponent. Voss displays a combination of competitiveness and smarts in defence seen in only the very best by position.

Voss' top-20 position on this draft board is based on the view that he is an any AFL club best-22 calibre piece with the decision of AFL clubs to pass on Voss last year and again during the 2022 mid-season draft no deterrent to this ranking.

September Ranking: 15


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:40 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 5139
Location: Bendigo
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.


Obviously I have missed the "in joke"?
Casey Voss as a top 30 pick? What have I missed?


15. Casey Voss (SANFL - Sturt)

The son of Michael, Casey Voss has now won Sturt's best and fairest and earned SANFL team of the year honours in successive seasons. He also won the Fos Williams Medal for best-on-ground in the annual SANFL vs. WAFL match.

Having just turned 22 years old in September, Voss has developed into the premier general defender outside the AFL and has impressed with averages of 23.8 disposals, 8.8 marks, one contested mark and 5.3 rebound 50s in the SANFL. Voss also secured 29 disposals and 15 marks in this year's SANFL vs. WAFL match.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/ ... hcroft-top

Quote:
A consistent year on year improver, Voss possesses a ready-to-go and well-rounded game with how he intercepts behind the ball, generates drive by foot and restricts the influence of his direct opponent. Voss displays a combination of competitiveness and smarts in defence seen in only the very best by position.

Voss' top-20 position on this draft board is based on the view that he is an any AFL club best-22 calibre piece with the decision of AFL clubs to pass on Voss last year and again during the 2022 mid-season draft no deterrent to this ranking.

September Ranking: 15

Moot point anyway - Vossy already ruled a line through him. Might’ve been around the MSD time.

That fella from ESPN is a different type of cat… part of the new breed of footy journo. I don’t mean to disparage him, because you deserve a shot if you do the work. But, from what I can gather, he cut his teeth on Big Footy & then got into a barney over some trivial shit that I couldn’t be bothered to investigate further.

Add to that the need to highlight where his draft board is unique from other, even less read draft boards… I don’t know if he’s all that long for the caper.

Regardless, the content is appreciated.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:54 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 5361
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

It was an interesting decision to give Philp a two year extension at the end of 2020 when he still had a year on his contract.

And are you sure about Fogarty? I think he’s out of contract but is going to be retained either on rookie list or primary list (like Ed)?
Nah not sure, just going off the tracker here and the fact that there's been no talk at all about either an extension nor delisting.

FWIW - this article (pre-trade period) has Fogarty out of contract: https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/ultimate ... -c-8405592

_________________
To one who, journeying thru night & fog
Is mired neck-deep in an unwholesome bog
Experience, like the rising of dawn
Reveals the path he should not have gone

- Ambrose Bierce


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:50 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 4267
bondiblue wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Nope, not saying that at all.
What I have been saying is that you

can't just blame the players solely.


Agree
I thought you were advocating Carlton was to blame for his failure during his 3 year tenure.

I know Carlton's development for the 2 decades prior to setterfield was putrid
I also know that Teague's game plan had flaws
I thought Setterfield was inconsistent, lazy and a ball watcher.
Pulled his finger out in the last month of the year: too late.


Voss has already shown this year what a better development system, playing players in the positions they were drafted for and in roles that highlight their strengths can do if they want to do the work. We've all seen it and the fact we have seen it only after one year highlights how poor it has been at the club.

The whole football world criticised Teague's lack of thought or commitment to defense with his game plan. Lets get that straight. The list didn't change but the game plan did with Vossy.
Setterfield was average under both regimes.

I can't buy the point Development impacted Setterfield under Voss, and stifled him under Teague.

He was given a chance on the wing. He failed. His inside ability is questionable. He doesn't hunt the ball. He loves to receive and kick blindly. He was tried as an inside mid too and failed. He tagged Oliver and Oliver had 28 possessions and involved in 8 scoring shots.


Maturity at 18yo no matter how much you want it to be true for all kids is as rare as hens teeth, no matter how many courses they do or lectures they attend, they're still kids. Our society no longer demands kids to mature by that age anymore and it hasn't for a long time, yet all of a sudden we expect kids playing sport to?
I personally believe, if the AFL want to have less hits and misses with drafting kids then we need to raise the age to 21 and have a national seconds competition.

Good point.

2 players can have the same development, coach and club but its a fact of life that some kids succeed and others fail. Its a fact of life. Survival of the fittest. Clubs cant wait 5-6 years to see signs. We've obviously seen enough of Setterfield and Dow. Lucky for Dow he's got a contract.


And I'd say the fact the club has come out saying how poor our player development has been is enough proof for me we have failed a lot of our kids, not just Setters.

What period was "the club" referring to? 2020-2021? I don't think so.

I wish him the best at the cheats, but I can't see how a change will benefit him TBH (and I'm secretly hoping it doesn't).
He's already had 4 coaches, 4 systems and even more roles.


I'm glad to see the back of him TBH. Can't wait to replace him, Fogarty, Dow, Ed, with better players. The rest will come next year. After 2023 I expect it to be painful to let go players who are not at the end of their career (Plowman and Newman).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Teague, he should've never got the job in the first place.
He was putrid as head coach and so was his game plan and player development, ex-Carlton player or not.
We could've already had 3 years of Voss and had a solid reliable system with defined roles and kids actually being played in position, developing.
Anyway, it is what it is.

Fogarty and Ed I agree with, would love to see some return from Dow, but I won't hold my breath.
I'm just hoping we don't go all Carlton again if we aren't getting the results quick enough.
It hasn't worked out for us yet and the odds will say it probably won't.
Time to back a coach in for the long haul and go for it.
Personally, I'm not expecting much improvement next season, if at all.
A lot of other clubs have improved their hands this trade period and I feel we may be relying too much on the fitness of our best 22 to move forward and we all know how that went this season.
I really hope we do, but I'm sceptical, especially with our midfield and it's lack of quality depth.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:41 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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aboynamedsue wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

It was an interesting decision to give Philp a two year extension at the end of 2020 when he still had a year on his contract.

And are you sure about Fogarty? I think he’s out of contract but is going to be retained either on rookie list or primary list (like Ed)?
Nah not sure, just going off the tracker here and the fact that there's been no talk at all about either an extension nor delisting.

FWIW - this article (pre-trade period) has Fogarty out of contract: https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/ultimate ... -c-8405592
Interesting.... Thanks abns.

Do think we'd have heard more about it so I'd assume it's not right but hopefully someone can set us straight. Thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:34 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 16786
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
If they're looking to improve on 29, I assume 10 and 29 for 15 and 18 from GWS is the play.

Issue I'm concerned about moving further down the first round is how they handle Casey Voss as an option. If we did that trade, I would imagine he's a viable candidate at both these picks. Some awkward conversations to be had I suspect.


Obviously I have missed the "in joke"?
Casey Voss as a top 30 pick? What have I missed?


15. Casey Voss (SANFL - Sturt)

The son of Michael, Casey Voss has now won Sturt's best and fairest and earned SANFL team of the year honours in successive seasons. He also won the Fos Williams Medal for best-on-ground in the annual SANFL vs. WAFL match.

Having just turned 22 years old in September, Voss has developed into the premier general defender outside the AFL and has impressed with averages of 23.8 disposals, 8.8 marks, one contested mark and 5.3 rebound 50s in the SANFL. Voss also secured 29 disposals and 15 marks in this year's SANFL vs. WAFL match.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/ ... hcroft-top

Quote:
A consistent year on year improver, Voss possesses a ready-to-go and well-rounded game with how he intercepts behind the ball, generates drive by foot and restricts the influence of his direct opponent. Voss displays a combination of competitiveness and smarts in defence seen in only the very best by position.

Voss' top-20 position on this draft board is based on the view that he is an any AFL club best-22 calibre piece with the decision of AFL clubs to pass on Voss last year and again during the 2022 mid-season draft no deterrent to this ranking.

September Ranking: 15


Thanks Spooky.
I'm aware of Casey Voss but we had a chance to pick him up in the mid season draft and declined. It would be lunacy to then use a top 30 ND selection on him.
Late selection or Rookie at best IMHO.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:28 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Fair enough - I've seen very little of him, and would be talking absolute shit to advocate for or against him on the basis of his ability/what he can contribute to the playing list.

My concern is making the decision, and the right process to arrive at that in the first place. Over the last few years with Ed getting another questionable year, the management of the Silvagni boys being picked up/retained etc, there's been some questionable basis for these sorts of conflict of interest decisions, and inevitably will upset the apple cart one way or another. Ironically, BV - I think I'm arguing for a merit and equity based selection here.

Imagine how the hindsight heroes on here react if he turns out half as good as Shane McAdam.


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