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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:42 am 
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John Nicholls
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Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
half as good as Shane McAdam.


Whoa, whoa, let's not burden the lad with unreasonable expectations!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:52 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
Fogarty, Philp, Akuei and a 33 year old E Curnow.

Yet we let Setterfield & Stocker go for nothing.

Curious.
Contracted, contracted, cat B for the first 3. Understand Ed is strange but club obviously value him.

Setterfield and Stocker. Not contracted.

Setterfield would have asked for more than we were willing to pay. Stocker obviously didn't do what the club expected.

Just wiping blokes with a year to run on their contracts when no one would take them anyway isn't realistic.

It was an interesting decision to give Philp a two year extension at the end of 2020 when he still had a year on his contract.

And are you sure about Fogarty? I think he’s out of contract but is going to be retained either on rookie list or primary list (like Ed)?
Nah not sure, just going off the tracker here and the fact that there's been no talk at all about either an extension nor delisting.


We had the discussion just recently, and the conclusion was he must have signed a 3 year contract to leave the Cats, after Austin said Setterfield and Ed are the only ones out of contract.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:57 am 
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Bruce Doull
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With no actual idea other than what my brain just farted I think Ed Curnow is on the list just to keep Charlie's ADHD in check.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:10 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Cazzesman wrote:
Riley Collier-Dawkins gone.

In the same boat as Setters. Too good for VFL, struggles at AFL. I did like RCD but he lacks the leg speed required. It will be interesting to see if he gets picked up.

Regards Cazzesman


Collier-Dawkins managed two AFL games in 2022 for a career total of 11 after being a first-round draft pick in 2018.

A first rounder delisted after only 4 years? God forbid!. That's a Carlton thing.

You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.

First round picks don't all succeed, and holding onto them when they don't show the upside they did when recruited just wastes a list spot.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:22 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Austin and the MC are proving to the world we are not carrying players and building a list of players we want to keep.

A lot of first round picks don't work out, just ask SOS: SPS, Setterfield, Stocker, Sumner, Gorringe, Jaksch, Smedts, Lamb, Whiley, Philips, Pickett ...

Not just SOS' picks either: Watson, Menzel, Bootsma, Boekhurst ... even Bugg, Lang, Garlett were first round picks.

What a waste ... yesterday it was Collier-Dawkins.

I will not be surprised if first round picks Dow and Fogarty are delisted next year.

Its a fact of life.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:27 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Fair enough - I've seen very little of him, and would be talking absolute shit to advocate for or against him on the basis of his ability/what he can contribute to the playing list.

My concern is making the decision, and the right process to arrive at that in the first place. Over the last few years with Ed getting another questionable year, the management of the Silvagni boys being picked up/retained etc, there's been some questionable basis for these sorts of conflict of interest decisions, and inevitably will upset the apple cart one way or another. Ironically, BV - I think I'm arguing for a merit and equity based selection here.

Imagine how the hindsight heroes on here react if he turns out half as good as Shane McAdam.


Reckon he has that Ryan Pagan vibe about him . Enough ability to be on a AFL list but not enough to improve that list . An in-betweener for mine .A sort of Brett Voss type . Having said that i wouldn't have a problem if they found a spot for him on our list . Sometimes these blokes given an opportunity can surprise you .

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:34 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Mickstar wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Fair enough - I've seen very little of him, and would be talking absolute shit to advocate for or against him on the basis of his ability/what he can contribute to the playing list.

My concern is making the decision, and the right process to arrive at that in the first place. Over the last few years with Ed getting another questionable year, the management of the Silvagni boys being picked up/retained etc, there's been some questionable basis for these sorts of conflict of interest decisions, and inevitably will upset the apple cart one way or another. Ironically, BV - I think I'm arguing for a merit and equity based selection here.

Imagine how the hindsight heroes on here react if he turns out half as good as Shane McAdam.


Reckon he has that Ryan Pagan vibe about him . Enough ability to be on a AFL list but not enough to improve that list . An in-betweener for mine .A sort of Brett Voss type . Having said that i wouldn't have a problem if they found a spot for him on our list . Sometimes these blokes given an opportunity can surprise you .



He's a Voss. He's born with the eye of a Tiger ... with navy blue eyes???

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:39 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Mickstar wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Fair enough - I've seen very little of him, and would be talking absolute shit to advocate for or against him on the basis of his ability/what he can contribute to the playing list.

My concern is making the decision, and the right process to arrive at that in the first place. Over the last few years with Ed getting another questionable year, the management of the Silvagni boys being picked up/retained etc, there's been some questionable basis for these sorts of conflict of interest decisions, and inevitably will upset the apple cart one way or another. Ironically, BV - I think I'm arguing for a merit and equity based selection here.

Imagine how the hindsight heroes on here react if he turns out half as good as Shane McAdam.


Reckon he has that Ryan Pagan vibe about him . Enough ability to be on a AFL list but not enough to improve that list . An in-betweener for mine .A sort of Brett Voss type . Having said that i wouldn't have a problem if they found a spot for him on our list . Sometimes these blokes given an opportunity can surprise you .


Yet to see a club in any code be able to manage the process and the subsequent perception of it effectively.

Doc Rivers with his son at the Clippers in the NBA - he ended up trading his own son to another franchise, and brought in the ex-fiancee of his daughter who got caught cheating on her with a stripper. That's as disengaged as you can get. Still think the criticism he got about giving his son unjustified minutes was probably accurate. Either way, it's a level of discourse not needed.

Ideally, they come up with a clear and detailed process about how they would intend to consider him, and how Voss would be at an arms length on the subject, that is then provided to the Members, so it can be an example for future cases at the club.

Probably more value in just issuing a blanket statement saying all things considered, we won't be considering him, it's an unfair asterisk against Casey's own career/ability, unnecessarily questions the integrity of the senior coach and our list management process. We wish him all the best, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:24 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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There was one poster on TC who questioned SOS' ability to spot talent when he missed on Sydney Stack.

All I know, with confidence, the Carlton list is in a good place today.

We have picks in our pocket to keep bringing in good young talent too.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:36 am 
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Serge Silvagni
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bondiblue wrote:
There was one poster on TC who questioned SOS' ability to spot talent when he missed on Sydney Stack.

All I know, with confidence, the Carlton list is in a good place today.

We have picks in our pocket to keep bringing in good young talent too.





Surely you would focus on SOS' terrible draft picks when you're questioning his ability to spot talent.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:04 am 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 11:23 pm
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Agro jr wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
There was one poster on TC who questioned SOS' ability to spot talent when he missed on Sydney Stack.

All I know, with confidence, the Carlton list is in a good place today.

We have picks in our pocket to keep bringing in good young talent too.


Surely you would focus on SOS' terrible draft picks when you're questioning his ability to spot talent.


He won't be getting an amended plaque in the Hall of Fame for recruitment.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:19 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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wasthesonofapreacherman wrote:
Agro jr wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
There was one poster on TC who questioned SOS' ability to spot talent when he missed on Sydney Stack.

All I know, with confidence, the Carlton list is in a good place today.

We have picks in our pocket to keep bringing in good young talent too.


Surely you would focus on SOS' terrible draft picks when you're questioning his ability to spot talent.


He won't be getting an amended plaque in the Hall of Fame for recruitment.



Turns out SOS is actually a great identifier of talent because he and 16 other clubs passed on a guy with behavioral issues.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
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1) I wish Casey Voss the greatest success but would prefer he achieve that elsewhere - too difficult to manage; not worth it (for either party)
2) Ed had a bad injury-riddled year. Before that, he has been amongst our best and most resilient (both in terms of his body, mind and attitude). I believe he has earned another year and I'm sure that would have come with no guarantees about AFL-level appearances. His value re Charlie is clear, but so is his value on the field and on the training track. If it was just to support Charlie, we could have given him an off-field role.
3) There are several ways we could improve our draft hand using next year's picks for example. And it could go either way - we could trade this year's pick to get another pick or two next year, or we could trade next year's pick to move higher into this year's draft, or split our pick #10 for 2 picks a bit lower down. Lots of options. I am comfortable that the list managers will make the best decisions at the time given available picks, our needs, available players and with an eye on next year's crop of players too.
4) I am confident we will improve next season - while I'd be surprised if our first half of the year is as good as this season, I'd expect us to make the finals and make an impact at the pointy end. This will be a big test for Vossy to grow his own repertoire and to broaden/deepen our players capabilities. And next season will be a huge test of how we perform under high expectation (which we failed once we'd set an unexpectedly high benchmark in the first half of this season).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:53 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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I’m generally pretty satisfied with our trade period despite it being quiet. Brought in Acres for not much (both salary wise and pick wise) who will fill a hole on the wing. Got some form of compensation for Jones who was already gone. Maintained a solid draft hand with picks in all 4 rounds. Could have got a bit more for Setterfield but ultimately he was going to Essendon* as a DFA if a deal fell through so we were never going to obtain too much of value in return.

For me, the list is in reasonable shape. The top end talent is there across all three parts of the ground. Bringing in 3-4 via the draft will help balance the listen given we’ve only had 3 National draft picks in 2 years. The areas to improve that can take us forward are durability, mentality and a better understanding of the Voss game plan.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:49 am 
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Trevor Keogh

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 11:23 pm
Posts: 784
Location: North Melbourne
Agro jr wrote:
wasthesonofapreacherman wrote:
Agro jr wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
There was one poster on TC who questioned SOS' ability to spot talent when he missed on Sydney Stack.

All I know, with confidence, the Carlton list is in a good place today.

We have picks in our pocket to keep bringing in good young talent too.


Surely you would focus on SOS' terrible draft picks when you're questioning his ability to spot talent.


He won't be getting an amended plaque in the Hall of Fame for recruitment.


Turns out SOS is actually a great identifier of talent because he and 16 other clubs passed on a guy with behavioral issues.


I said this a few years ago but I'll repeat the story. Fact - SOS had Ang Christou calling him incessantly to tell him Saad wanted out at GC and begged SOS to trade him in. He continued to ignore the calls until others stepped in. In the subsequent interview, SOS was arrogant (body language and in verbiage) and was very critical of Saad - particularly his kicking. Saad then had an interview with ** who welcomed him with open arms and spoke glowingly about his obvious weapons and where he'd fit into their game plan moving forward. It was an easy decision. It's these oversights that hurt.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:31 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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bondiblue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Fair enough - I've seen very little of him, and would be talking absolute shit to advocate for or against him on the basis of his ability/what he can contribute to the playing list.

My concern is making the decision, and the right process to arrive at that in the first place. Over the last few years with Ed getting another questionable year, the management of the Silvagni boys being picked up/retained etc, there's been some questionable basis for these sorts of conflict of interest decisions, and inevitably will upset the apple cart one way or another. Ironically, BV - I think I'm arguing for a merit and equity based selection here.

Imagine how the hindsight heroes on here react if he turns out half as good as Shane McAdam.


Reckon he has that Ryan Pagan vibe about him . Enough ability to be on a AFL list but not enough to improve that list . An in-betweener for mine .A sort of Brett Voss type . Having said that i wouldn't have a problem if they found a spot for him on our list . Sometimes these blokes given an opportunity can surprise you .



He's a Voss. He's born with the eye of a Tiger ... with navy blue eyes???


Well he definitely has the Eye of the Tiger . He does not take his eyes off the ball . Unflinching player .

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:03 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Is it possible we have absolutely zero room in our salary cap next season for more than draftees and rookies and is the reason for Austin's tactic to only go to the draft this year?

You have to ask the following:
- Why would we give away our only midfield depth player who actually had a half decent crack at filling the injury gap this year?
(I'm not advocating Setters was A grade quality, but he was depth and the better of what we had available this year)
- Why would we not put our hat in the ring or even be possibly linked to any one of a number of midfielders that moved/wanted to move this trade period, especially the Bowes deal that came with pick 7?
- Or even pick up a depth player like a Schache for our defence at minimum?

Surely we are not saying our list is polished and whilst being at the cusp of being in the 8 we should go ahead and draft kids that will not be ready for a couple of seasons instead of making a push now with mature talent additions?

Are we waiting for more contracts to expire next season before we start again with trading in some more guns/depth?
Or are we just hoping the players we have will all of a sudden be injury free and the kids that have shown little all of a sudden become elite?

It just doesn't make sense to me that we go back to being so heavily invested in the draft at this point in our development.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:08 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
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Sidefx wrote:
Is it possible we have absolutely zero room in our salary cap next season for more than draftees and rookies and is the reason for Austin's tactic to only go to the draft this year?

You have to ask the following:
- Why would we give away our only midfield depth player who actually had a half decent crack at filling the injury gap this year?
(I'm not advocating Setters was A grade quality, but he was depth and the better of what we had available this year)
- Why would we not put our hat in the ring or even be possibly linked to any one of a number of midfielders that moved/wanted to move this trade period, especially the Bowes deal that came with pick 7?
- Or even pick up a depth player like a Schache for our defence at minimum?

Surely we are not saying our list is polished and whilst being at the cusp of being in the 8 we should go ahead and draft kids that will not be ready for a couple of seasons instead of making a push now with mature talent additions?

Are we waiting for more contracts to expire next season before we start again with trading in some more guns/depth?
Or are we just hoping the players we have will all of a sudden be injury free and the kids that have shown little all of a sudden become elite?

It just doesn't make sense to me that we go back to being so heavily invested in the draft at this point in our development.


Don't take this the wrong way but I thought it was obvious we are tight on cap.

We got Ackers for a steal apparently, he isn't getting paid anywhere near highish dollar despite having a very good year and being talked up mid year as potentially being an AA.

Think about it , we have a lot of players on big money ...

Cripps
Curnow
Walsh
McKay

Doc and Weitering would be on a lot too I'd imagine

Plus likely big contracts I assume have not expired yet for players we brought over from other clubs ...

McGovern
Williams
Martin
Saad

All the above would command good coin

Then there is the future and the need to pony up for TDK who while he hasn't fully arrived it is clear he has amazing talent and in turn upside. Not many 200+cm players can take screamers like he can.

I reckon we are tight on cap and we are looking forward to some big contracts for injury prone players brought over from other clubs to soon expire. And we are trying to bed down contracts for our stars.

Then we start to reset and see if we can land any other big name players to fill holes.

It should also be said we have not drafted an enormous number of kids of late so it is good to go back to the draft. The draft is the lifeblood of clubs remember (Parko quote). Remember some of our younger players haven't shined (Stocker, Philp, Dow etc) so we need to replenish kids.

I think our list is very good bar those injury prone players from other clubs.
We are sorting our house out.
What we need now is ...

- those injury prone stars from other clubs to stay fit and healthy
- the kids esp the small forwards to develop quickly
- further development and bedding down of game plan across the board among the playing list


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:13 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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Sidefx wrote:
Is it possible we have absolutely zero room in our salary cap next season for more than draftees and rookies and is the reason for Austin's tactic to only go to the draft this year?

We’re up against it for sure.

The cap is, near enough, $13m.

Cripps, Charlie, Harry, Walsh, Weitering, Cerra, Saad & Williams… 45-50% locked in until 2025.

Kennedy, Acres, George, Fisher… another 10%, same timeframe. For the sake of argument, let’s say Martin is on $500k. Yes, Jack’s contract expires in 2024, but we’re looking at the macro picture for answers as to why we’re hitting the draft in the short term. Maybe it’s less, but we’re still looking at the best part of 60% total, squared away for the next three years with the top and upper-mid level.

That leaves 29 players to manage - and 19 of them are coming out of contract in next year’s window.

McGovern, Docherty, Pittonet & De Koning are the big ticket items. Doc is probably on similar money to George & hopefully he extends for similar. Gov represents a saving, but the rucks will cost - whether or not we get on the merry-go-round.

We might be able to add some mid-level pieces next year, but that’s about the extent of it.

For the next three seasons, our list will have a long tail to it, with very little trade currency.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:59 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
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Crusader wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
Is it possible we have absolutely zero room in our salary cap next season for more than draftees and rookies and is the reason for Austin's tactic to only go to the draft this year?

We’re up against it for sure.

The cap is, near enough, $13m.

Cripps, Charlie, Harry, Walsh, Weitering, Cerra, Saad & Williams… 45-50% locked in until 2025.

Kennedy, Acres, George, Fisher… another 10%, same timeframe. For the sake of argument, let’s say Martin is on $500k. Yes, Jack’s contract expires in 2024, but we’re looking at the macro picture for answers as to why we’re hitting the draft in the short term. Maybe it’s less, but we’re still looking at the best part of 60% total, squared away for the next three years with the top and upper-mid level.

That leaves 29 players to manage - and 19 of them are coming out of contract in next year’s window.

McGovern, Docherty, Pittonet & De Koning are the big ticket items. Doc is probably on similar money to George & hopefully he extends for similar. Gov represents a saving, but the rucks will cost - whether or not we get on the merry-go-round.

We might be able to add some mid-level pieces next year, but that’s about the extent of it.

For the next three seasons, our list will have a long tail to it, with very little trade currency.


Forgot about Cerra.

Yep we have plenty of well paid players.

Now just have to get them on the park and gelling.


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