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 Post subject: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:57 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Posts: 28221
2024 playing list as it stands...


32. Matthew Carroll 28/11/05 (2023 RD#15)
35. Billy Wilson 16/6/05 (2023 ND#34)
43. Ashton Moir 15/4/05 (2023 ND#29)
34. Rob Monahan ?/?/04 (2023 Cat B Rookie)
40. Hudson O'Keeffe 16/12/04 (2023 SSP)
02. Lachie Cowan 1/12/04 (2022 ND#30)
25. Jaxon Binns 29/10/04 (2022 ND#32)
31. Harry Lemmey 30/1/04 (2022 ND#47)
04. Oliver Hollands 16/1/04 (2022 ND#11)
03. Jesse Motlop 23/11/03 (2021 ND#27)
16. Jack Carroll 20/12/02 (2020 ND#41)
41. Domanic Akuei 12/5/02 (2021 NGA Cat B rookie)
20. Elijah Hollands 25/4/02 (2020 ND#7 GC, 2023 TP)
19. Corey Durdin 14/2/02 (2020 ND#37)
17. Brodie Kemp 1/5/01 (2019 ND#17)
18. Sam Walsh 2/7/00 (2018 ND#1)
46. Matthew Cottrell 29/2/00 (2019 PRP, 2021 RD#23)
45. Alex Mirkov 17/11/99 (2021 MSD#6)
05. Adam Cerra 7/10/99 (2017 ND#5 Fre, 2021 Tr.P)
12. Tom DeKoning 16/7/99 (2017 ND#30)
08. Lachie Fogarty 1/4/99 (2017 ND#22 Geel, 2020 Tr.P)
33. Lewis Young 20/12/98 (2016 ND#49 WB, 2021 Tr.P)
37. Jordan Boyd 22/9/98 (2021 MSD#20)
10. Harry McKay 24/12/97 (2015 ND#10)
01. Jack Silvagni 17/12/97 (2015 ND F/S #53)
23. Jacob Weitering 23/11/97 (2015 ND#1)
07. Matthew Kennedy 6/4/97 (2015 ND#13 GWS, 2017 Tr.P, 2021 RU)
28. David Cuningham 30/3/97 (2015 ND#23)
44. Matthew Owies 19/3/97 (2018 Cat B Rookie)
30. Charlie Curnow 3/2/97 (2015 ND#12)
22. Caleb Marchbank 7/12/96 (2014 ND#6 GWS, 2016 Tr.P)
39. Alex Cincotta 17/12/96 (2023 SSP)
38. Sam Durdin 6/6/96 (2014 ND#16 NM, 2022 MSD #13)
27. Marc Pittonet 3/6/96 (2014 ND#50, 2019 Tr.P)
29. George Hewett 29/12/95 (2013 ND#32 Syd, 2021 FA)
13. Blake Acres 7/10/95 (2013 ND#19, 2022 Tr.P)
14. Orazio Fantasia 14/9/95 (2013 ND#55 *, 2020 TP PortAd, 2023 DFA)
09. Patrick Cripps 18/3/95 (2013 ND#13)
21. Jack Martin 29/1/95 (2012 MD#1 GCS, 2019 PSD#1)
11. Mitch McGovern 11/10/94 (2014 ND#43 Ade, 2018 Tr.P)
06. Zac Williams 20/9/94 (2013 RD#54 GWS, 2020 Tr.P)
42. Adam Saad 23/7/94 (2015 RD#25 GCS, 2017 Tr.P *, 2020 Tr.P)
15. Sam Docherty 17/10/93 (2011 ND#12 Bris, 2013 Tr.P)
24. Nic Newman 15/1/93 (2015 RD#35 Syd, 2018 Tr.P)


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:54 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 7:46 pm
Posts: 116
I think it would be useful to update Crusader's breakdown from the 2023 thread, highlighting our new players (obviously some players fit between two positions)

[4] Key Defenders: Weitering, Young, S. Durdin
[5] Med Defenders: Marchbank, Kemp, McGovern, Akuei, M.Carroll
[7] Small Defenders: Saad, Williams, Newman, Boyd, Cowan, Cincotta, Wilson
[4] Ruck: Pittonet, De Koning, O’Keeffe, Mirkov
[3] Inside Mid: Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett
[4] Midfield: Walsh, Cerra, Docherty, Carroll
[4] Wing: Acres, O. Hollands, Cottrell, Binns
[3] Mid Forwards: E. Hollands, Cuningham, Fogarty
[2] Med Forwards: Martin, Moir
[4] Small Forwards: Motlop, Durdin, Owies, Fantasia
[4] Key Forwards: Curnow, McKay, Silvagni, Lemmey

[2] IRISH: Monahan, Duffy

Our list was already in a really good position, our draft hand was limited, and there weren't many game changing players on the trading block, so natural development was going to be our main source of improvement. I thought the best approach this offseason would be to take a few speculative punts to keep to pressure on players who needs to improve or give up their spots, and I think the club have delivered that.

Moir was the exact pick we needed. No one taken at 29 comes without question marks, but his ceiling should be very high and he adds that x-factor we desperately need in our slimmest list slot. Big tick.

Hollands is similar to Moir, in that he has a put few ??? and !!! next time to his name, but if he approaches his potential he could be a gamebreaker. Exactly what we need in the forward half. I think it's worth noting that he cost less in draft capital than Moir with a couple of years of extra development.

The Orazio pickup is....fine. No guarantee he gets his body right, but if he does he should add something in an area of need. If it doesn't work out he's cost us nothing other than a list spot.

Wilson and Carroll were clearly chosen on talent not need. A couple of guys in there are getting towards 30, but we have depth in the positions so it's hard to see them debuting anytime soon.

The Irishmen are complete jokers in the deck.

Big concerns next year are any injuries to our key position stocks at either end of the ground. Agresta will need to keep a close eye on the mid-season draft.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:21 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Pretty sure the Irish with ACL didn't get on the list in the end which is why we had a rookie spot

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 1:52 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Melbourne
Currently 2024 picks.

Round one pick
Round two pick
Round four pick (tied to Western Bulldogs)
Round four pick (tied to Fremantle, received from St Kilda)
Round four pick (tied to Gold Coast)

Regards Cazzesman

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 2:23 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6393
Location: Bendigo
jezzarules wrote:
Pretty sure the Irish with ACL didn't get on the list in the end which is why we had a rookie spot

According to AFL.com, both Irish lads are on the list.

Probably an allowance for international rookies.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:51 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 2451
peabody wrote:
I think it would be useful to update Crusader's breakdown from the 2023 thread, highlighting our new players (obviously some players fit between two positions)

[4] Key Defenders: Weitering, Young, S. Durdin
[5] Med Defenders: Marchbank, Kemp, McGovern, Akuei, M.Carroll
[7] Small Defenders: Saad, Williams, Newman, Boyd, Cowan, Cincotta, Wilson
[4] Ruck: Pittonet, De Koning, O’Keeffe, Mirkov
[3] Inside Mid: Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett
[4] Midfield: Walsh, Cerra, Docherty, Carroll
[4] Wing: Acres, O. Hollands, Cottrell, Binns
[3] Mid Forwards: E. Hollands, Cuningham, Fogarty
[2] Med Forwards: Martin, Moir
[4] Small Forwards: Motlop, Durdin, Owies, Fantasia
[4] Key Forwards: Curnow, McKay, Silvagni, Lemmey

[2] IRISH: Monahan, Duffy

Our list was already in a really good position, our draft hand was limited, and there weren't many game changing players on the trading block, so natural development was going to be our main source of improvement. I thought the best approach this offseason would be to take a few speculative punts to keep to pressure on players who needs to improve or give up their spots, and I think the club have delivered that.

Moir was the exact pick we needed. No one taken at 29 comes without question marks, but his ceiling should be very high and he adds that x-factor we desperately need in our slimmest list slot. Big tick.

Hollands is similar to Moir, in that he has a put few ??? and !!! next time to his name, but if he approaches his potential he could be a gamebreaker. Exactly what we need in the forward half. I think it's worth noting that he cost less in draft capital than Moir with a couple of years of extra development.

The Orazio pickup is....fine. No guarantee he gets his body right, but if he does he should add something in an area of need. If it doesn't work out he's cost us nothing other than a list spot.

Wilson and Carroll were clearly chosen on talent not need. A couple of guys in there are getting towards 30, but we have depth in the positions so it's hard to see them debuting anytime soon.

The Irishmen are complete jokers in the deck.

Big concerns next year are any injuries to our key position stocks at either end of the ground. Agresta will need to keep a close eye on the mid-season draft.



Certainly agree; in particular our key defensive positions.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:32 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6393
Location: Bendigo
To the best of my knowledge, these are the expiring contracts for next season.

Free Agents:
Marchbank - Restricted
Cuningham - Restricted
Cottrell - Unrestricted (previously delisted)

Non Free Agents:
C.Durdin
E.Hollands
J.Carroll
Martin
Fogarty
Owies

Rookie List Eligibility:
Mirkov - Final year
Boyd - Final year
S.Durdin - Final year
Akuei - Final year
Cincotta - 2nd year
O’Keeffe - 2nd year
M.Carroll - 1st year
Monahan - 1st year
Duffy - 1st year

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Last edited by Crusader on Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:58 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:09 pm
Posts: 16902
The Irish lads are on two-year category B rookie contracts.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:42 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6393
Location: Bendigo
DocSherrin III wrote:
The Irish lads are on two-year category B rookie contracts.

Yeah, sorry. When I scratched that list out in my head, the rookie list section was only there as a sort of count down to decision time. I’ve updated that subheading.

Of the four that need to be moved to the Primary List or delisted, I think Boyd is the only one that would be better than 50/50 to get another contract.

We know there are at least two draftees to bring in next year, so that’s three spots required on the primary list…

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:37 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2451
Unless there is some other plan, wouldn't we need to keep Sam Durdin as a backup key defender?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:25 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4583
carntheblues wrote:
Unless there is some other plan, wouldn't we need to keep Sam Durdin as a backup key defender?

You'd think so but it's certainly no certainty.
I could see three rookie promotions end of 24 in part due to the way list spots and draft picks for matching bids work

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Last edited by jezzarules on Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:26 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6393
Location: Bendigo
carntheblues wrote:
Unless there is some other plan, wouldn't we need to keep Sam Durdin as a backup key defender?

I think we could find a more durable alternative. No good carrying a flat spare tire.

He’d also be 28 going on 29 by then. There will be a good number of 20-21yo late bloomers (covid impact) in the system.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:26 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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DocSherrin III wrote:
The Irish lads are on two-year category B rookie contracts.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:52 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 6393
Location: Bendigo
Both lads need a thread in TalkingPlayers.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:30 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
carntheblues wrote:
Unless there is some other plan, wouldn't we need to keep Sam Durdin as a backup key defender?


I think we are lucky to have Sam and Young as back up KPD's, and if Sam can stand up this year, I can't see him being dropped, unless ofcourse we can find a younger, more robust KPD in the SAFL, WAFL or VFL.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:25 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Interesting article today

https://www.afl.com.au/news/1072658/list-analysis-how-your-club-has-built-its-list

How our club's list was built.

What dos this say about our List Manager SOS who turned over the list and used more first round picks than any other List Manager in the last 10 years? What does it say about Trading out Draft picks? What does it say about guarantees in the draft?

No successful selections after pick 30 (for DeKoning) for SOS at Carlton. Is that normal for a List Manager? I don't think zero is. Give credit where credit is due, SOS did select Williams in the rookie draft for GWS.

SOS had to do what he had to do to play the clubs cold executioner, and I thank him for that (except for Tuohy), but as a selector, he seems to have got too many first and second round selections wrong at GWS and Carlton to be considered a guru, and its not an easy task and that Trading for players isn't such a bad thing as some seem to think.

When you see Dow was a pick 3, SPS a pick 5, OBrien a pick 10, Austin's trades for Cerra for pick 6 and Saad for pick 8 what I see and have learned from this is Trading out first round picks isn't such a big deal given you have to pay in high Picks for quality and both of those players are only around the $600K pa mark. Williams was a free hit but cost $850K pa. Lets hope Austin continues with shrewd Trading and later selections now that we will not be seeing top 10 draft picks for a long long time (hopefully).

I just wonder what we could have got if we traded late first round picks like Stocker (19), Philp (20), Cuningham (23). Then again SOS did trade pick 7 for Jaksch to GWS. Doesn't matter anymore.

The past doesn't worry me. Its gone, and we have a great list now (regardless of the fact that it took much more than 66 weeks as was toted). A great list takes time. I just hope we learn from this experience and the lesson that Drafting isn't the be all to end all, and certainly no guarantee for success. Its all easy in hindsight for posters. Austin has to be better than SOS with later selections and make the right calls when trading out players or delisting, like he did with Setterfield, Stocker, Dow, SPS, and I'm sure that decision is not his alone. Those decisions are made by a panel of experts (including he coach).

Cazzeman would know all about that, and he'd also know more about the calibre of our current recruiting staff and investment on eyes around the country and lower leagues. They are the ones we have to rely on.

Our list has never been better this century. We got to this point by making hard, but imo the right decisons. Decisions SOS would have found difficult to make given he picked some of the players we have discarded with very valuable Draft picks. Discarding Dow OBrien and Fisher were the right decisions regardless of all the frothing and dogmatic statements posters made about them last year. Some of us weren't surprised at all, and I celebrate we have the people who can make hard decisions.

Discarding Setterfield, SPS, Philp, even other first rounders like Menzel, Boekhurst, Jaksch, Watson, bloody Bootsma were all good decisions. They take up list spots and list spots are valuable and we have to keep improving our list, no matter how good we think it is.

Our next discards will be the same: hard decisons on good players, even better than Dow, OBrien SPS Fisher.

Players have to be let go, due to AFL rules, and from our current list we know they will be good ones, again, including contracted players (I'm looking at one poster who I wont mention who posted I was an idiot midseason to suggest OBrien will have to be let go despite being in contract. Rules are rules. This year we have to make decisons on last year rookies Boyd and Mirkov, just as we did with OBrien to upgrade Cottrell. That wasn't a hard decison, but hard to accept for some.

We have to keep improving our depth. I never want to see us at the bottom of the ladder as the AFL's joke ever again. Get use to hard decisions and don't be so precious about peripheral players.

We are playing for high stakes. Carlton exist to win games and win Flags...more than the next team. That's what we expect in 2024 and have done so since we won flag No 16 in 1995.

The front of the jumper is more important than the back of the jumper and dont you forget it!

Carlton is the most important name...not any surname.

Its time for another era of the Bluebagger.

We are Carlton fk the rest. :fight:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:04 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Sydney
Oh God, Bootsma was a first rounder... I'd convinced myself he was a second. That stings.


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 Post subject: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 1:48 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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He was a first rounder, but then waited 20 mins and had a second rounder

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 2:35 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2024
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:44 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2473
Do we have anyone training? Who can we target given SOS’ injury


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