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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2434
The no.1 thing we need is relentless, desperation for the whole match.

After that, we can worry about the players.

And after that, the positions and the game plan.


Desperation
It will come this week, as others have said, b/c of the scrutiny we have finally received. This won't tell us much. But, the next 4 weeks will tell us plenty. And then, the four weeks after that. Basically, we need to set a standard like StK did against WCE. But then, we need to maintain that standard IN EVERY GAME FOR THE WHOLE GAME. Even against the lowest team if we are winning by 10 goals with 15 mins to go (I'm looking at the Freo game here...).
I actually am astounded that we are so bad for tackles and pressure acts! NO excuse for that. At all!!!

Players
I believe we need to get in some young blood IF they are performing consistently well at the lower level and/or showing the right application in the seniors. I desperately want Dow and O'Brien to make it but running out of patience. I'd like to see Dow learn how to rack up possessions in the VFL before he comes back. It is not doing him any good to keep failing in the seniors. I'm similarly keen to see Cunningham do well. He showed some great signs last year. Needs to step it up in terms of output, consistency and physical resilience (no inuries). Don't know much about Owies but I am curious. I think Betts is looking older every week - losing his feet, not getting to many contests. He still looks dangerous when he is near the ball and he can direct the other forwards but the end is nigh. Casboult, Murphy and Betts are there until someone else forces them out.
In: Stocker
Out: Williamson


Positions & Game Plan
We looked great in the pre-season when the pressure is not there. We need to work harder and then the game plan may work better. Need to move the ball into the forward line faster and not into the deep pockets. Our key talls should be leading to different spots and at different depths and angles. AND, if we're getting creamed in the air, kick it shorter or lower - even along the ground rather than bomb into a sea of opposition sweepers!
I like the idea of Stocker/Williams rotating through the middle from HBF. I think we must rotate Murphy through the middle too, possibly with SPS. Maybe rotate Murphy/SPS through the middle, wing and forward.
I am getting to the point where McGovern has forfeited his right to play in the forward line given he is not performing well there. Time is coming where he may need to head to the backline, maybe take the role we have been keeping for Marchbank?

PS. I am not excusing Murphy b/c of his shoulders. I just know his shoulders have been shot for years, not from working so hard but from injury, I think going back to his first year. So, he just can't tackle properly. And the opposition all know this. So, I see it as a massive liability. He managed to cope for a number of years but the value of his vision and skills is diminishing as the cost of his lack of accountability is increasing. So, I agree this is a problem for him. I just see his value still outweighing the cost at this stage. BUT, I think that he needs to be used more in the midfield. AND, he needs to be challenged to get tougher: "Get as fit as possible b/c we're throwing you into the midfield. And, if you struggle to tackle, you better get tough and get the ball before anyone else does!"


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:27 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Location: Melbourne
IN Stocker, Cuningham, Owies
OUT Murphy, Betts, Williamson

We are miles off and we need to start playing more kids more regularly. Not all at once but for where we are at, I don't see the point in playing Murphy and Betts anymore. If we'd made the improvements this year that we were expecting then maybe it's a different story, but we need fresh energy coming in from underneath.

And FFS get Dow out of this ridiculous sub role. The kid clearly needs to get some confidence asap playing in the 2s so what do we do? Drop him and give him no opportunity to turn the ship. What an idiotic MC we have. Truly boggles the mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:07 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
jake_h03 wrote:
IN Stocker, Cuningham, Owies
OUT Murphy, Betts, Williamson

We are miles off and we need to start playing more kids more regularly.


Miles off? I cant agree.
We finished 11th last year and our list is better this year IMO. The addition of Williams, Fogarty and hopefully Stocker this week has improved our senior depth. Add Philp and a few other kids showing form in the 2's and we're a better list IMO.
Get a few players back from injury and we're a chance for the 8. IMHO, we have sufficient talent to play finals footy. We just need to play a game style that suits the personnel rather than a pipe dream of attractive footy that Teague seems to aspire to.

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Last edited by Blue Vain on Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:40 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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kingkerna wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
Out Williamson (omitted) Murphy (retired)
In Stocker
That's only one in Einstein

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk


Considering their recent contributions I reckon he’d be able to cover them both pretty comfortably at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:29 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
IN Stocker, Cuningham, Owies
OUT Murphy, Betts, Williamson

We are miles off and we need to start playing more kids more regularly.


Miles off? I cant agree.
We finished 11th last year and our list is better this year IMO. The addition of Williams, Fogarty and hopefully Stocker this week has improved our senior depth. Add Philp and a few other kids showing form in the 2's and we're a better list IMO.
Get a few players back from injury and we're a chance for the 8. IMHO, we have sufficient talent to play finals footy. We just need to play a game style that suits the personnel rather than a pipe dream of attractive footy that Teague seems to aspire to.


I'm with you on that BV.

Injuries have had an impact and people love to skim over that.

Only as good as the bottom 6. If bottom 6 aren't trying, and putting on relentless pressure with thos injuries, we are not going to perform.

Newman and DeKoning not far away.
Stocker and Philp will make a difference to the results and the perception of our youth.

Its only round 5 and we have 2 wins. Its a crazy year, so yeah, I still think we have the list to make finals especially when Charlie adds another monster to the forwardline, and Martin, Silvagni and Fisher return in 3 weeks time.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:29 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
GWS wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
Out Williamson (omitted) Murphy (retired)
In Stocker
That's only one in Einstein

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk


Considering their recent contributions I reckon he’d be able to cover them both pretty comfortably at the moment.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:39 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Fagan will be shitting himself. Teague and Barker are certain to try heaps of new stuff, play blokes in their best positions and throw in something really strategic that they can't counter and that our guys execute with aplomb.

Said nobody ever.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:49 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
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Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:19 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
frank dardew wrote:
Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


In terms of guys better than last year, this is who I can think of:

Walsh
JSOS (looks better than he ever has in the games hes played)
Harry (though still doesn't work hard enough, is stronger and more of a threat now)
Cottrell (looks a bit better than last year, though not so much against Port)

New players who have had positive impact
Williams
Fogarty
Saad
Parks (in 2 games hes played)

That is about it

Ones who are pretty similar to 2020:
Dow (wasnt good when he played last year and hasn't been this year)
LOB (ditto)
SPS
Kennedy (though he had some decent games last year)
Gov (I saw no difference, at least yet)
Jones (good last year and this year mostly)
Doch (good, though some possession howlers here and there)
Plowman (similarly okish, outside of an awful Collingwood game this year)
Weiters (dependable)
Pitto (still played less than 30 games, serviceable)
Newnes (okish to good)
Ed Curnow (still good, though had a poor one v Port)
Gibbo (been busy though poor against Port)

Gone Backwards
Betts
Murph
Cuningham
Setterfield
Williamson
Levi (slightly though probably not 100%)

Injured most if not all the season
JSOS
TDK
Carroll
Kemp
Martin
Newman
Fisher
C Curnow
Marchbank
OMac (well he is now)

So all of those things combined have left us almost where we began. The new guys coming and the improvement of a few, have been offset by young players either stagnating/going backwards, older guys getting worse and current longer term injuries to 6 guys who'd walk into our best 22.

So injuries are an excuse but they aren't the entire picture, we'd have banked on much greater output from Setterfield, Cuningham (i know he hasn't played but there is a reason for that) and at least hoped Dow would of risen to the level of a serviceable AFL player.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:37 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:35 am
Posts: 7809
Location: Melbourne
Blue Vain wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
IN Stocker, Cuningham, Owies
OUT Murphy, Betts, Williamson

We are miles off and we need to start playing more kids more regularly.


Miles off? I cant agree.
We finished 11th last year and our list is better this year IMO. The addition of Williams, Fogarty and hopefully Stocker this week has improved our senior depth. Add Philp and a few other kids showing form in the 2's and we're a better list IMO.
Get a few players back from injury and we're a chance for the 8. IMHO, we have sufficient talent to play finals footy. We just need to play a game style that suits the personnel rather than a pipe dream of attractive footy that Teague seems to aspire to.


We're miles off competing with the top teams. For me, there is no point playing guys like Betts and Murphy when they are pushing 35, are not in our best 10-12 players on the ground and we're as far off as we are when we have guys like Stocker and Cuningham in the 2s.

I don't think our list is miles off. I agree once we get some injured players back we are a chance for the 8. But to compete with the top teams when it matters we need a heap of these young talented kids with potential to turn into consistent bona fide AFL footballers. Setterfield, Stocker, Dow, O'Brien, Cuningham, Kennedy, SPS, Philp etc. There is a hell of a lot of investment there with pretty much no return to date.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
Adam Chatfield wrote:
frank dardew wrote:
Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


In terms of guys better than last year, this is who I can think of:

Walsh
JSOS (looks better than he ever has in the games hes played)
Harry (though still doesn't work hard enough, is stronger and more of a threat now)
Cottrell (looks a bit better than last year, though not so much against Port)

New players who have had positive impact
Williams
Fogarty
Saad
Parks (in 2 games hes played)

Gone Backwards
Betts
Murph
Cuningham
Setterfield
Williamson
Levi (slightly though probably not 100%)


So all of those things combined have left us almost where we began.


Left us where we began? I disagree. You're talking quantity instead of quality.
Improvements you have Walsh, JSOS, Harry, Cottrell, Williams, Fogarty, Saad, Parks.
I'd suggest just the new players have offered significantly more value than the offset of players who have gone backwards.
Eddie? He had a poor year last year so there's no loss from last year.
Murphy? As with Eddie, I don't think he offered a lot last year. Setterfield and Levi have gone backwards. Cuningham and Williamson were fringe players last year anyway.
So we've added Williams who is top 3 for clearances, centre clearances, inside 50's and contested possessions, Fogarty who is our leading tackler and Saad who has been excellent in defence despite playing injured. Coupled with the significant improvement from Walsh, it shits all over any net loss from the players you mentioned.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:48 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Location: Echuca
Attitude !! Get in their faces !! :smoking:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rhole.html

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:00 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 1566
jake_h03 wrote:
IN Stocker, Cuningham, Owies
OUT Murphy, Betts, Williamson

We are miles off and we need to start playing more kids more regularly. Not all at once but for where we are at, I don't see the point in playing Murphy and Betts anymore. If we'd made the improvements this year that we were expecting then maybe it's a different story, but we need fresh energy coming in from underneath.

And FFS get Dow out of this ridiculous sub role. The kid clearly needs to get some confidence asap playing in the 2s so what do we do? Drop him and give him no opportunity to turn the ship. What an idiotic MC we have. Truly boggles the mind.


The club deteoyed Dow’s confidence in the first 2 weeks of the season

The club pumped him all pre season and then the first 2 rounds they start him on the bench and then from high half forward to limited minutes in the middle

He should of started ...

And now he needs to go back to the reserves to get his confidence back

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:25 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am
Posts: 2032
dannyboy wrote:
is harry a great mark?


Yes. And he can do this...

Freakish/skilful goals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9M8loXnILk


He isn't going to win every contest (which seems to be many people's expectations) but when he does win them he is exciting to watch.
He is one player who has the potential to bring the supporters through the gates. I like his kicking action, I like his style. He's got it.
I feel once he gets in the zone he will be a great. Don't let the pressure overtake him. Give him time to grow.

Sticks Kernahan missed shots at goal - remember when he kicked out of bounds vs Essendon* in 1993?
The very next round he kicked the winning goal against Hawthorn near the siren.
Missed shots happen to everyone. He seems to sometimes go into his shell with a missed shot. Keep going.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:56 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 898
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:01 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Out: Williamson, SPS
In: Stocker, Cunningham and play Gov off half back.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:03 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8166
Location: Australia
If your body won’t let you do the things you need to do as a player in a team then it’s time to stop playing. What you are describing is a player who’s time has come to retire.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:28 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Discussion about the list is great and all, but if Robinson plays a blinder against us again, like he has every time since we dumped him for being a flower, I'll kick someone's dog.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:12 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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ianh wrote:
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.



Good post.

I admire your loyalty to one of our stalwarts. We all love what Murphy did up to a few years back. I think you're missing that. We would also like Simmo still playing too, and he offered and probably still offers more than Murphy. Life's tough. AFL is brutal with salary caps, media scrutiny, forced player turnover...

Do you like a player with busted shoulders selected in the best 22? I don't think so. Neither does anyone else.

As you stated, the key issue is who is ready to come in [to replace him]. This we all agree with; the cupboard is bare. What the statement implies is that he's not up to it. We are all saying the same thing. Some like to back their reasoning with data/ facts circa 2021: that's all.

Despite not being able to play as a mid because of this busted shoulders, and that he can't lay the forward pressure Teague's game plan, he is selected because the cupboard is bare and/or he and maybe Liddle and co would like to get him to 300 games.

I'm ok with that, but I also agree with many posters and supporters that its a selfish decision by him to continue to play when his shoulders don't allow him to do the things required inan AFL team; any AFL team, and it shouldn't be the club's preference to get him to 300 when the team and he is not playing well.

Stocker and Cuningham will likely replace the last 2 in: Williamson and Kennedy, maybe Cottrell...maybe Murphy and Betts. But when Newman comes back for defensive cover, and Stocker is playing better than those playing, including Murphy and Betts, Newman will push Stocker further down field as a mid/ forward perhaps; he's tough and a good kick, both sides.

The vitriol will really get heated if he is still not playing well and he's reached his 300 and players like Martin, Fisher return and some younger players like Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Philp, Setterfield, Durdin get fit and find form. Some are, lets face it.

I hope you see the logic. It's not turning on Murphy. Murphy has put himself in this position fully well knowing it could go either way in his attempt to get to 300. He doesn't want to get injured before that, does he? It looks that way to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:15 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
Wojee wrote:
Discussion about the list is great and all, but if Robinson plays a blinder against us again, like he has every time since we dumped him for being a flower, I'll kick someone's dog.


I will spew too, like I did the last time. I bet you will be reminded of Malthouse if plays well, and shows some of our players what a strong legal manly tackle looks like and when it sticks how much hurt is inflicted in this game of attrition.

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