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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:49 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 898
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.



Good post.

I admire your loyalty to one of our stalwarts. We all love what Murphy did up to a few years back. I think you're missing that. We would also like Simmo still playing too, and he offered and probably still offers more than Murphy. Life's tough. AFL is brutal with salary caps, media scrutiny, forced player turnover...

Do you like a player with busted shoulders selected in the best 22? I don't think so. Neither does anyone else.

As you stated, the key issue is who is ready to come in [to replace him]. This we all agree with; the cupboard is bare. What the statement implies is that he's not up to it. We are all saying the same thing. Some like to back their reasoning with data/ facts circa 2021: that's all.

Despite not being able to play as a mid because of this busted shoulders, and that he can't lay the forward pressure Teague's game plan, he is selected because the cupboard is bare and/or he and maybe Liddle and co would like to get him to 300 games.

I'm ok with that, but I also agree with many posters and supporters that its a selfish decision by him to continue to play when his shoulders don't allow him to do the things required inan AFL team; any AFL team, and it shouldn't be the club's preference to get him to 300 when the team and he is not playing well.

Stocker and Cuningham will likely replace the last 2 in: Williamson and Kennedy, maybe Cottrell...maybe Murphy and Betts. But when Newman comes back for defensive cover, and Stocker is playing better than those playing, including Murphy and Betts, Newman will push Stocker further down field as a mid/ forward perhaps; he's tough and a good kick, both sides.

The vitriol will really get heated if he is still not playing well and he's reached his 300 and players like Martin, Fisher return and some younger players like Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Philp, Setterfield, Durdin get fit and find form. Some are, lets face it.

I hope you see the logic. It's not turning on Murphy. Murphy has put himself in this position fully well knowing it could go either way in his attempt to get to 300. He doesn't want to get injured before that, does he? It looks that way to me.


My main point in defence of Murphy is NOT about whether he deserves a place in the team - he is borderline at best and then only because of our injury situation. I too look forward to him being pushed out by others when form and fitness and development warrant it - but I don't think he deserves the vitriol because I see his limitations being beyond his control, due to injury, age and the trend to bigger mids. It's not like he is not trying, flaky, lazy or the like, albeit that he has always tended to be a bit of a downhill skier who runs hard offensively but not so much the other way, and whilst I see what you are saying about trying not to get injured I see that as being realistic about what he can and can't physically do rather than softness. We all love the Kenny Hunter bravery but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

We DO NOT owe Mark Murphy the honour of reaching 300 games and whilst I hope he makes it I only support it if he warrants his selection week by week. at the moment I think he is, as I say, borderline. I doubt he is going to be able to give more and so he is there to be overtaken as others deserve the run more. He is not a forward. He is not a defender - unless given the complete loose man role. He is no longer able to play as an inside mid. So he needs to be an outside mid or out of the team. But at the moment how many are ahead of him for that role, given form , fitness and roles being assigned?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3280
I'd like to see the team line up like this, but I doubt it will because we're very process-oriented and don't like making big changes. Which I understand - you train to play a certain was all summer, and train players to play in certain spots. It doesn't make any sense to throw your hands up in the air and do everything differently when faced with your first raft of challenges. But it doesn't make it any less annoying, either.

Plowman - Jones - McGovern
Docherty - Weitering - Saad
Newnes - Stocker - Cottrell
Cunningham - McKay - Fogarty
SPS - Cripps - Gibbons
Pittonet - Walsh - Williams
Murphy - Betts - Casboult - E. Curnow
Sub: Kennedy


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:49 am
Posts: 1581
Marc Murphy will definitely reach his 300th game in season 2021, so detractors relax the anxiety.
It’s very sad reading criticism of a great club Champion in probably his final season.
Marc has had his body decimated by Copland ( Lions ) and more recently Dangerfield and still produced some great footy in our darkest times

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:30 pm 
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Banned

Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm
Posts: 2333
bluechampion wrote:
I'd like to see the team line up like this, but I doubt it will because we're very process-oriented and don't like making big changes. Which I understand - you train to play a certain was all summer, and train players to play in certain spots. It doesn't make any sense to throw your hands up in the air and do everything differently when faced with your first raft of challenges. But it doesn't make it any less annoying, either.

Plowman - Jones - McGovern
Docherty - Weitering - Saad
Newnes - Stocker - Cottrell
Cunningham - McKay - Fogarty
SPS - Cripps - Gibbons
Pittonet - Walsh - Williams
Murphy - Betts - Casboult - E. Curnow
Sub: Kennedy


I like that team with the cattle we have alot.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:43 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
Blue Vain wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
frank dardew wrote:
Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


In terms of guys better than last year, this is who I can think of:

Walsh
JSOS (looks better than he ever has in the games hes played)
Harry (though still doesn't work hard enough, is stronger and more of a threat now)
Cottrell (looks a bit better than last year, though not so much against Port)

New players who have had positive impact
Williams
Fogarty
Saad
Parks (in 2 games hes played)

Gone Backwards
Betts
Murph
Cuningham
Setterfield
Williamson
Levi (slightly though probably not 100%)


So all of those things combined have left us almost where we began.


Left us where we began? I disagree. You're talking quantity instead of quality.
Improvements you have Walsh, JSOS, Harry, Cottrell, Williams, Fogarty, Saad, Parks.
I'd suggest just the new players have offered significantly more value than the offset of players who have gone backwards.
Eddie? He had a poor year last year so there's no loss from last year.
Murphy? As with Eddie, I don't think he offered a lot last year. Setterfield and Levi have gone backwards. Cuningham and Williamson were fringe players last year anyway.
So we've added Williams who is top 3 for clearances, centre clearances, inside 50's and contested possessions, Fogarty who is our leading tackler and Saad who has been excellent in defence despite playing injured. Coupled with the significant improvement from Walsh, it shits all over any net loss from the players you mentioned.


At this current moment, its left us in the same spot. As younger guys haven't come on, some experienced guys gone backwards, and then we have injuries as well.

Do you think our performances this year have been any better than last year, so far?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:08 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
Adam Chatfield wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
frank dardew wrote:
Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


In terms of guys better than last year, this is who I can think of:

Walsh
JSOS (looks better than he ever has in the games hes played)
Harry (though still doesn't work hard enough, is stronger and more of a threat now)
Cottrell (looks a bit better than last year, though not so much against Port)

New players who have had positive impact
Williams
Fogarty
Saad
Parks (in 2 games hes played)

Gone Backwards
Betts
Murph
Cuningham
Setterfield
Williamson
Levi (slightly though probably not 100%)


So all of those things combined have left us almost where we began.


Left us where we began? I disagree. You're talking quantity instead of quality.
Improvements you have Walsh, JSOS, Harry, Cottrell, Williams, Fogarty, Saad, Parks.
I'd suggest just the new players have offered significantly more value than the offset of players who have gone backwards.
Eddie? He had a poor year last year so there's no loss from last year.
Murphy? As with Eddie, I don't think he offered a lot last year. Setterfield and Levi have gone backwards. Cuningham and Williamson were fringe players last year anyway.
So we've added Williams who is top 3 for clearances, centre clearances, inside 50's and contested possessions, Fogarty who is our leading tackler and Saad who has been excellent in defence despite playing injured. Coupled with the significant improvement from Walsh, it shits all over any net loss from the players you mentioned.


At this current moment, its left us in the same spot. As younger guys haven't come on, some experienced guys gone backwards, and then we have injuries as well.

Do you think our performances this year have been any better than last year, so far?


Definitely not. And that's the point.
We have greater depth and talent on the list. So we're underperforming.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:26 pm 
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Posts: 2333
Fixture hasnt been exactly kind for us first half of the year.

Next four games

Brisbane (rank between 4-7) - expecting a win even with injuries - will be a huge win if we get over the line but can also understand if we lose depends how we lose
Essendon* - expecting a win
Bulldogs (rank top four) - not expecting much other than competitive effort few players coming back from injury might help and good form in others might help as well
Melbourne (rank top four) - their synergy is too good but like Bulldogs expecting players to come back from injury

By the end of next four rounds..... it can only go two ways. Either confidence is shot and the faithful is super restless (most likely scenario and think the club knows its coming or are planning for it) or confidence in a win against a top four side would propel the side to go on a winning run next four rounds whom are not top four type teams.

So by the end of round nine would not be surprised to see three wins - six losses but at start of bye round seven wins - six losses

Lets see how we go but expecting a brutal month for the club internally and externally hope the lads around the club are suitably prepared.

Go Blues


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:55 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
Posts: 836
its a pretty tough run to be honest.

first 8 weeks will see us play 5 teams that should be right up there at the end of the season (Melbourne, Bulldogs, Tigers, Lions, Port) and 1 who is around the mark (Collingwood)

If we can somehow end up 4/4 i think its a pretty good outcome. im not holding my breath though. Two real tests where Pies and Port, and we failed both miserably.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
ianh wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.



Good post.

I admire your loyalty to one of our stalwarts. We all love what Murphy did up to a few years back. I think you're missing that. We would also like Simmo still playing too, and he offered and probably still offers more than Murphy. Life's tough. AFL is brutal with salary caps, media scrutiny, forced player turnover...

Do you like a player with busted shoulders selected in the best 22? I don't think so. Neither does anyone else.

As you stated, the key issue is who is ready to come in [to replace him]. This we all agree with; the cupboard is bare. What the statement implies is that he's not up to it. We are all saying the same thing. Some like to back their reasoning with data/ facts circa 2021: that's all.

Despite not being able to play as a mid because of this busted shoulders, and that he can't lay the forward pressure Teague's game plan, he is selected because the cupboard is bare and/or he and maybe Liddle and co would like to get him to 300 games.

I'm ok with that, but I also agree with many posters and supporters that its a selfish decision by him to continue to play when his shoulders don't allow him to do the things required inan AFL team; any AFL team, and it shouldn't be the club's preference to get him to 300 when the team and he is not playing well.

Stocker and Cuningham will likely replace the last 2 in: Williamson and Kennedy, maybe Cottrell...maybe Murphy and Betts. But when Newman comes back for defensive cover, and Stocker is playing better than those playing, including Murphy and Betts, Newman will push Stocker further down field as a mid/ forward perhaps; he's tough and a good kick, both sides.

The vitriol will really get heated if he is still not playing well and he's reached his 300 and players like Martin, Fisher return and some younger players like Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Philp, Setterfield, Durdin get fit and find form. Some are, lets face it.

I hope you see the logic. It's not turning on Murphy. Murphy has put himself in this position fully well knowing it could go either way in his attempt to get to 300. He doesn't want to get injured before that, does he? It looks that way to me.


My main point in defence of Murphy is NOT about whether he deserves a place in the team - he is borderline at best and then only because of our injury situation. I too look forward to him being pushed out by others when form and fitness and development warrant it - but I don't think he deserves the vitriol because I see his limitations being beyond his control, due to injury, age and the trend to bigger mids. It's not like he is not trying, flaky, lazy or the like, albeit that he has always tended to be a bit of a downhill skier who runs hard offensively but not so much the other way, and whilst I see what you are saying about trying not to get injured I see that as being realistic about what he can and can't physically do rather than softness. We all love the Kenny Hunter bravery but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

We DO NOT owe Mark Murphy the honour of reaching 300 games and whilst I hope he makes it I only support it if he warrants his selection week by week. at the moment I think he is, as I say, borderline. I doubt he is going to be able to give more and so he is there to be overtaken as others deserve the run more. He is not a forward. He is not a defender - unless given the complete loose man role. He is no longer able to play as an inside mid. So he needs to be an outside mid or out of the team. But at the moment how many are ahead of him for that role, given form , fitness and roles being assigned?


I see where you are coming from.

I agree the outside mid role is one he could be best at; playing loose. I just don't think that's a role we want any of our kids taking up now, let alone in the future. Everyone is accountable for an opponent. Only Dusty can play loose (if allowed) because of the damage he can do to drag his team over the line for a win.

I don't think Marc's form warrants selection, but I continue to acknowledge the cupboard is bare.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:20 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
Blue Vain wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
frank dardew wrote:
Agree with BV too as I said in another thread there are only a handful of the 22 playing to their capacity
2 out of 3 s output is less than last year but the overall squad is better with Williams Saad and Fogarty
It’s the 2 out of 3 in the team that need to lift look at Setters for example output compared to last year pales into insignificance
At the moment that goes for Murph Eddie Willo Cunningham Cripps Newnes Doc SPS etc etc


In terms of guys better than last year, this is who I can think of:

Walsh
JSOS (looks better than he ever has in the games hes played)
Harry (though still doesn't work hard enough, is stronger and more of a threat now)
Cottrell (looks a bit better than last year, though not so much against Port)

New players who have had positive impact
Williams
Fogarty
Saad
Parks (in 2 games hes played)

Gone Backwards
Betts
Murph
Cuningham
Setterfield
Williamson
Levi (slightly though probably not 100%)


So all of those things combined have left us almost where we began.


Left us where we began? I disagree. You're talking quantity instead of quality.
Improvements you have Walsh, JSOS, Harry, Cottrell, Williams, Fogarty, Saad, Parks.
I'd suggest just the new players have offered significantly more value than the offset of players who have gone backwards.
Eddie? He had a poor year last year so there's no loss from last year.
Murphy? As with Eddie, I don't think he offered a lot last year. Setterfield and Levi have gone backwards. Cuningham and Williamson were fringe players last year anyway.
So we've added Williams who is top 3 for clearances, centre clearances, inside 50's and contested possessions, Fogarty who is our leading tackler and Saad who has been excellent in defence despite playing injured. Coupled with the significant improvement from Walsh, it shits all over any net loss from the players you mentioned.


At this current moment, its left us in the same spot. As younger guys haven't come on, some experienced guys gone backwards, and then we have injuries as well.

Do you think our performances this year have been any better than last year, so far?


Definitely not. And that's the point.
We have greater depth and talent on the list. So we're underperforming.


Yes, I think the list is theoretically better for the additions, I was giving reasons for why the performance hasn’t been.

So far we have been exactly the same, lost first 2, win next 2, then lost r5.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:42 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 1566
bmaurizio wrote:
Marc Murphy will definitely reach his 300th game in season 2021, so detractors relax the anxiety.
It’s very sad reading criticism of a great club Champion in probably his final season.
Marc has had his body decimated by Copland ( Lions ) and more recently Dangerfield and still produced some great footy in our darkest times


Funniest post yet !!

Now he is a champion ?? Because he played 300 games he has been finished for a long time

He wouldn’t be in the top 50 players that played at Carlton

He was a good player that played in a shocking era and was financially well
Compensated

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:45 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2434
I think this thread has been pretty good, balanced and respectful for the most part so really enjoying this discussion!
The debate about Murphy, Betts and others is good. I think it would be a lot better, and a more vigorous debate, if a few more of the kids were really smashing the door down. But, to date, this is not the case.

Re the suggested team above, it looks pretty good but I think we do really need one of McGovern or Casboult up there with Harry. The best forwards in the game at the moment have another one or two big fellas down there demanding attention. And Harry is not good enough (yet) to really lead a forward line on his own. I doubt Kennedy, Darling, Oscar Allen, or Tim English, Bruce or Naughton would be doing that well on their own... and they have much better delivery than we do.

A frustration for me is that the pre-season showed definite improvement in terms of game plan, connection and even the form of some of the players we need to step up. But, of course, there is very little pressure in the pre-season. BUT, it shows that if we can handle the pressure, we have the capability to perform well.

So for me, the number one thing we need to focus on is pressure: Relentless pressure across the whole ground, all the time. And absorbing opposition pressure - i.e. being able to compete and execute effectively under extreme pressure. This is what we should be focusing on at training. Everything else flows from there. And teamwork - this is how you relieve some pressure collectively.

This might mean different things for different players. Tackling, standing up in tackles, kicking, marking, handballs (not a soft give to a teammate's ankles please!!!). Decision making under pressure. Gut running to provide support or an option for your teammates under pressure.

This week will tell us a fair bit. We have finally had the blowtorch applied. And Brisbane knows this and will be ready. Most teams believe that if they can apply the pressure, we will eventually collapse. Let's prove them all wrong. Beginning this week!!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:56 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 5815
17th Premiership wrote:
I think this thread has been pretty good, balanced and respectful for the most part so really enjoying this discussion!
The debate about Murphy, Betts and others is good. I think it would be a lot better, and a more vigorous debate, if a few more of the kids were really smashing the door down. But, to date, this is not the case.

Re the suggested team above, it looks pretty good but I think we do really need one of McGovern or Casboult up there with Harry. The best forwards in the game at the moment have another one or two big fellas down there demanding attention. And Harry is not good enough (yet) to really lead a forward line on his own. I doubt Kennedy, Darling, Oscar Allen, or Tim English, Bruce or Naughton would be doing that well on their own... and they have much better delivery than we do.

A frustration for me is that the pre-season showed definite improvement in terms of game plan, connection and even the form of some of the players we need to step up. But, of course, there is very little pressure in the pre-season. BUT, it shows that if we can handle the pressure, we have the capability to perform well.

So for me, the number one thing we need to focus on is pressure: Relentless pressure across the whole ground, all the time. And absorbing opposition pressure - i.e. being able to compete and execute effectively under extreme pressure. This is what we should be focusing on at training. Everything else flows from there. And teamwork - this is how you relieve some pressure collectively.

This might mean different things for different players. Tackling, standing up in tackles, kicking, marking, handballs (not a soft give to a teammate's ankles please!!!). Decision making under pressure. Gut running to provide support or an option for your teammates under pressure.

This week will tell us a fair bit. We have finally had the blowtorch applied. And Brisbane knows this and will be ready. Most teams believe that if they can apply the pressure, we will eventually collapse. Let's prove them all wrong. Beginning this week!!


Yeah ! play like your coach used to play.David Teague wasn't a bad player.Not bad at all............but one thing he ALWAY"S did was put his head over the football.ALWAY"S..........never shirked ever.When it came to courage he was Kenny Hunter like.Yes,Kenny Hunter like.If these blokes need inspiration,just watch how your coach used to do it...................Teague is dull,wooden,lifeless etc but as they say,actions speak louder than words.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:12 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 1566
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.



Good post.

I admire your loyalty to one of our stalwarts. We all love what Murphy did up to a few years back. I think you're missing that. We would also like Simmo still playing too, and he offered and probably still offers more than Murphy. Life's tough. AFL is brutal with salary caps, media scrutiny, forced player turnover...

Do you like a player with busted shoulders selected in the best 22? I don't think so. Neither does anyone else.

As you stated, the key issue is who is ready to come in [to replace him]. This we all agree with; the cupboard is bare. What the statement implies is that he's not up to it. We are all saying the same thing. Some like to back their reasoning with data/ facts circa 2021: that's all.

Despite not being able to play as a mid because of this busted shoulders, and that he can't lay the forward pressure Teague's game plan, he is selected because the cupboard is bare and/or he and maybe Liddle and co would like to get him to 300 games.

I'm ok with that, but I also agree with many posters and supporters that its a selfish decision by him to continue to play when his shoulders don't allow him to do the things required inan AFL team; any AFL team, and it shouldn't be the club's preference to get him to 300 when the team and he is not playing well.

Stocker and Cuningham will likely replace the last 2 in: Williamson and Kennedy, maybe Cottrell...maybe Murphy and Betts. But when Newman comes back for defensive cover, and Stocker is playing better than those playing, including Murphy and Betts, Newman will push Stocker further down field as a mid/ forward perhaps; he's tough and a good kick, both sides.

The vitriol will really get heated if he is still not playing well and he's reached his 300 and players like Martin, Fisher return and some younger players like Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Philp, Setterfield, Durdin get fit and find form. Some are, lets face it.

I hope you see the logic. It's not turning on Murphy. Murphy has put himself in this position fully well knowing it could go either way in his attempt to get to 300. He doesn't want to get injured before that, does he? It looks that way to me.


My main point in defence of Murphy is NOT about whether he deserves a place in the team - he is borderline at best and then only because of our injury situation. I too look forward to him being pushed out by others when form and fitness and development warrant it - but I don't think he deserves the vitriol because I see his limitations being beyond his control, due to injury, age and the trend to bigger mids. It's not like he is not trying, flaky, lazy or the like, albeit that he has always tended to be a bit of a downhill skier who runs hard offensively but not so much the other way, and whilst I see what you are saying about trying not to get injured I see that as being realistic about what he can and can't physically do rather than softness. We all love the Kenny Hunter bravery but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

We DO NOT owe Mark Murphy the honour of reaching 300 games and whilst I hope he makes it I only support it if he warrants his selection week by week. at the moment I think he is, as I say, borderline. I doubt he is going to be able to give more and so he is there to be overtaken as others deserve the run more. He is not a forward. He is not a defender - unless given the complete loose man role. He is no longer able to play as an inside mid. So he needs to be an outside mid or out of the team. But at the moment how many are ahead of him for that role, given form , fitness and roles being assigned?


I see where you are coming from.

I agree the outside mid role is one he could be best at; playing loose. I just don't think that's a role we want any of our kids taking up now, let alone in the future. Everyone is accountable for an opponent. Only Dusty can play loose (if allowed) because of the damage he can do to drag his team over the line for a win.

I don't think Marc's form warrants selection, but I continue to acknowledge the cupboard is bare.


Based on this logic , we should Murphy for another 3 years

Cause the players we have in the reserves don’t deserve a spot against Murphy 12 Posssession , turnover kicks and no tackles , and next years kids in the draft will
Need more time

Can’t wait for Murphy 400th hopefully we will have someone to replace him then

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:00 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Interesting that Teague is talking about positional changes this week. He's mentioned SPS to midfield and McGovern and Williams to the backline, possibly alongside Stocker.

We played basically the same seven players all season in the backline last year.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:58 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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McGovern to the backline in the short term I like. Prefer Williams around the ground, at stoppages

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:24 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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17th Premiership wrote:
I think this thread has been pretty good, balanced and respectful for the most part so really enjoying this discussion!
The debate about Murphy, Betts and others is good. I think it would be a lot better, and a more vigorous debate, if a few more of the kids were really smashing the door down. But, to date, this is not the case.

Re the suggested team above, it looks pretty good but I think we do really need one of McGovern or Casboult up there with Harry. The best forwards in the game at the moment have another one or two big fellas down there demanding attention. And Harry is not good enough (yet) to really lead a forward line on his own. I doubt Kennedy, Darling, Oscar Allen, or Tim English, Bruce or Naughton would be doing that well on their own... and they have much better delivery than we do.

A frustration for me is that the pre-season showed definite improvement in terms of game plan, connection and even the form of some of the players we need to step up. But, of course, there is very little pressure in the pre-season. BUT, it shows that if we can handle the pressure, we have the capability to perform well.

So for me, the number one thing we need to focus on is pressure: Relentless pressure across the whole ground, all the time. And absorbing opposition pressure - i.e. being able to compete and execute effectively under extreme pressure. This is what we should be focusing on at training. Everything else flows from there. And teamwork - this is how you relieve some pressure collectively.

This might mean different things for different players. Tackling, standing up in tackles, kicking, marking, handballs (not a soft give to a teammate's ankles please!!!). Decision making under pressure. Gut running to provide support or an option for your teammates under pressure.

This week will tell us a fair bit. We have finally had the blowtorch applied. And Brisbane knows this and will be ready. Most teams believe that if they can apply the pressure, we will eventually collapse. Let's prove them all wrong. Beginning this week!!


Good summary of what we need to focus on. Another theme discussed is selfless support for each other.

We have to play to win every quarter.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:42 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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Could take a page out of the bulldogs books.

Undefeated and make 5 changes with only 2 forced. Drop those not in form and play those that are.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:46 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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azzablue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
ianh wrote:
Agree with the fact that Murphy's output isn't up to scratch, but think he cops a lot of criticism for not doing things his body won't let him do, such as tackling and confronting the much bigger units that populate the midfield nowadays compared to when he started. That is not to say you overlook these deficiencies, just the level of vitriol directed at a guy who can't tackle because he busted his shoulders playing for our club is I think digraceful. Still, at the end of the day his contribution is either good enough or it isn't and at best it is borderline. The situation with Eddie I think is different, he clearly isn't the player of years past but he still has that element of magic and plays a position and role where his deficincies can be better covered, particularly when one factors in his leadership in the forward line and the stuff he does off the ball that our other forwards simply don't. In a nutshell I think our forward line functions much better with Eddie there.

The key issue is who is ready to come in. there are a couple especially Stocker who ought to be called up now but beyond that with our injury list and current form I don't know there is a lot of improvement from the players we could bring in.



Good post.

I admire your loyalty to one of our stalwarts. We all love what Murphy did up to a few years back. I think you're missing that. We would also like Simmo still playing too, and he offered and probably still offers more than Murphy. Life's tough. AFL is brutal with salary caps, media scrutiny, forced player turnover...

Do you like a player with busted shoulders selected in the best 22? I don't think so. Neither does anyone else.

As you stated, the key issue is who is ready to come in [to replace him]. This we all agree with; the cupboard is bare. What the statement implies is that he's not up to it. We are all saying the same thing. Some like to back their reasoning with data/ facts circa 2021: that's all.

Despite not being able to play as a mid because of this busted shoulders, and that he can't lay the forward pressure Teague's game plan, he is selected because the cupboard is bare and/or he and maybe Liddle and co would like to get him to 300 games.

I'm ok with that, but I also agree with many posters and supporters that its a selfish decision by him to continue to play when his shoulders don't allow him to do the things required inan AFL team; any AFL team, and it shouldn't be the club's preference to get him to 300 when the team and he is not playing well.

Stocker and Cuningham will likely replace the last 2 in: Williamson and Kennedy, maybe Cottrell...maybe Murphy and Betts. But when Newman comes back for defensive cover, and Stocker is playing better than those playing, including Murphy and Betts, Newman will push Stocker further down field as a mid/ forward perhaps; he's tough and a good kick, both sides.

The vitriol will really get heated if he is still not playing well and he's reached his 300 and players like Martin, Fisher return and some younger players like Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Philp, Setterfield, Durdin get fit and find form. Some are, lets face it.

I hope you see the logic. It's not turning on Murphy. Murphy has put himself in this position fully well knowing it could go either way in his attempt to get to 300. He doesn't want to get injured before that, does he? It looks that way to me.


My main point in defence of Murphy is NOT about whether he deserves a place in the team - he is borderline at best and then only because of our injury situation. I too look forward to him being pushed out by others when form and fitness and development warrant it - but I don't think he deserves the vitriol because I see his limitations being beyond his control, due to injury, age and the trend to bigger mids. It's not like he is not trying, flaky, lazy or the like, albeit that he has always tended to be a bit of a downhill skier who runs hard offensively but not so much the other way, and whilst I see what you are saying about trying not to get injured I see that as being realistic about what he can and can't physically do rather than softness. We all love the Kenny Hunter bravery but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

We DO NOT owe Mark Murphy the honour of reaching 300 games and whilst I hope he makes it I only support it if he warrants his selection week by week. at the moment I think he is, as I say, borderline. I doubt he is going to be able to give more and so he is there to be overtaken as others deserve the run more. He is not a forward. He is not a defender - unless given the complete loose man role. He is no longer able to play as an inside mid. So he needs to be an outside mid or out of the team. But at the moment how many are ahead of him for that role, given form , fitness and roles being assigned?


I see where you are coming from.

I agree the outside mid role is one he could be best at; playing loose. I just don't think that's a role we want any of our kids taking up now, let alone in the future. Everyone is accountable for an opponent. Only Dusty can play loose (if allowed) because of the damage he can do to drag his team over the line for a win.

I don't think Marc's form warrants selection, but I continue to acknowledge the cupboard is bare.


Based on this logic , we should Murphy for another 3 years

Cause the players we have in the reserves don’t deserve a spot against Murphy 12 Posssession , turnover kicks and no tackles , and next years kids in the draft will
Need more time

Can’t wait for Murphy 400th hopefully we will have someone to replace him then


Easy champ. You are emotionally charged and illogical, saying things no one else is saying. You've got my attention.

You've read all the posts, including mine, for several pages prior to this one and Ive all Ive done is stated the actual situation.


I don't want Williamson in the team. Never did. Are you offended by that? he's leaked a lot of goals...a lot of goals...more than Marc

I don't want Kennedy in the team because he's much too slow for AFL imo, and can't keep up with them in the midfield (whereas Marc might create some perceived pressure)

I don't want Dow looking to find form as the 23rd man

I went off Plowman a couple years ago, but whilst Marchbank and Macreadie are/were injured he is the best we've got. At least he played a blinder against the Tigers. He's OK.

I don't want Gibbons because he is too small, like Murphy gets ragdolled and his kicking hasn't been fantastic. Great stamina though and healthy

I wish Silvagni was playing instead of Gov as the 3rd Fwd Tall, but now glad we have Gov to fill the bill. No other alternative in the VFL


I don't want Murphy in the team because he can't stick the tackle and his numbers which you mention, 12 disposals at 43% efficiency. (mentioned ad nauseum)

I want to drop Newnes to set an example because of a couple shocking efforts, but I don't know if he was gassed at the time. He can run all day and strong body.

Ive mentioned the only form player in the VFL is Stocker and he has to come in for Williamson.
Cuningham played well enough for me to replace Kennedy as a forward rotating through the mid.

Who else is there in the VFL to replace any of the others mentioned, including Marc Murphy? ... and I'm not interested in OBrien and want Dow in the midfield in the VFL to show us he can play there. Setterfield was really out of form in VFL. There's no one else fit enough or strong enough. We have 11 injured players and VFL players building their minutes returning from injury

I'm stating the obvious for this week...the cupboard is bare.

Give me your logic. I'd like to hear it. Then calm down a bit.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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Hey Guys, I don't contribute much to this great forum. But I read your input regularly. I've been watching some of the tv shows about our great but struggling club. Garry Lyon talking about Murphy is spot on: put him in the midfield. For me either that or nothing. No half forward role for him. SPS in the midfield or a small forward or both. He's floundering in the backline. He's better than that and only once had shown his dominance when Bolton played him there. Williamson in the back half. There are other suggestions but that is the gist of it. We probably won't win this week but we need to change things up. We have no choice.

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