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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:20 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
Win lose or draw I reckon you need to look at the game in context to three areas
1 The opposition
Freo were shit. They didn’t come to play . Their midfield stunk up the big one.
Taberner is their only decent forward he was just ok
Their defence had nobody to match McKay given the supply

2 our best players
Walsh Jones had their best games. Walsh is an aerobic contested beast. Jones actually kicked the ball beautifully. Don’t expect it 2 weeks in a row!
Cripps played really well.
Fogarty looks really good. Early days but that prick Scott might regret not keeping him and getting Higgins.
Gibbons was excellent
Mc Kay had his best game. Still hate it when he kicks check sides. He will never get it easier. If Curnow comes back it would be fantastic seeing those 2 dudes in action.

3 our worst players
Please drop Murphy and Betts. Not up to it . Period
Give Owies an extended time in the seniors as a small forward
Plowman got. bit of it and is trying to become more offensive but makes too many mistakes under pressure
Casboult and Dow not up to it
Dow has no game sense and has been granted games ahead of others because he was a pick 3
Bring in McDonald and Stocker

And don’t drop Cottrell and Parks. Give them an extended run
Both have some mongrel about them something we have sadly lacked for a long time



The opposition were shit. Our players had their best game. Don't expect it again. Blah blah blah
We won by 45 points Keogh. Dwell in your own negativity without coming here and trying to drag the rest of us into it.


I don’t pay enough attention to know the usual suspects but I can tell you it only took me half a paragraph to know I needn’t waste my time reading it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:30 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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A kick off the ground walloped williams straight in the janglies. Happened with 5 minutes to go in the second. Hee dropped like a sack of spuds. Gave me a good chuckle anyway. Williams seems quite durable. He took a big knock to his leg in the 1st qtr. and played out the game ok. He looks bigger in the carlton jersey than in the gws one, i was thinking


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:55 am 
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Adrian Gallagher

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Walsh stays in the contest like no other. It's a joy to watch, especially live :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:37 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Blue Vain wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
supercoach wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
grrofunger wrote:
A win's a win's a win

MVP voting open : viewtopic.php?f=21&t=37161



A 45 point win

BOG a toss up between Walsh Cripps jones Fogarty McKay ....Inhavent even seen the stats yet.

Walsh is a phenomena. His disposals usually count.

Glad to win by 1 point let alone 45.

We were 46 up at half time and 62 points during the third.

Dow pick 3 beat Cerra pick 4 on the day. Neither were stars but hey...it's about them.

Go Blues


How did Dow beat cerra Bondi ?


Look, they were both below average.
Cerra more disposals, but on the outside whilst eveyone else was doing the hard work.
Dow put his head over the ball more and got in close to distribute.

Cerra a better kick. Dow a harder player.

My vote. Dow.

Now drop him for Stocker.


Cerra is a class player.
Yet there's another player who was taken later in the draft than both Dow and Cerra that is playing great footy.
Averaging 22 possessions this season, 4.3 tackles, 8.3 contested possessions, more effective disposals than Cerra, more stoppage clearances and more goals. And IMHO, he has far more scope for improvement.
Lachie Fogarty.

Interesting you bring this up implying the clubs recruiting staff are now genius .
Austin can’t be any worse than sour puss SOS.
SOS did a deal with Geelong in 2016
Remember it
Pick 63 Billie Smedts and a future first rounder for
Tuohy and a future second rounder in Lachie Fogarty
So clearly now is a another all mighty @#$%&! up when you look back at it
The future first rounder wound up somehow with the Lions and Bailey was picked
Another nail in SOSs coffin
He actually traded this pick for Marchbank Pickett and a future second rounder
SOS was definitely not a genius

As for the pussies well their time is up and it’s time to rebuild
Fogarty is a good pick up it seems
What goes around comes around


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:04 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I want us to be successful
Not just one game where the opposition don’t turn up.
You virtually cannot carry any passengers if you want to get into a Preliminary Final.
The club has once again come out with this goal of winning a flag in 2 years or whatever.
You can’t win one if your carrying 5 or 6 players which is what happened Sunday.
That’s a fact. It ain’t being negative at all.
I would love to see what Owies, Carroll, Stocker etc can bring to the table
Cottrell and Parks need to be given a couple more goes .


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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keogh wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
supercoach wrote:
bondiblue wrote:


A 45 point win

BOG a toss up between Walsh Cripps jones Fogarty McKay ....Inhavent even seen the stats yet.

Walsh is a phenomena. His disposals usually count.

Glad to win by 1 point let alone 45.

We were 46 up at half time and 62 points during the third.

Dow pick 3 beat Cerra pick 4 on the day. Neither were stars but hey...it's about them.

Go Blues


How did Dow beat cerra Bondi ?


Look, they were both below average.
Cerra more disposals, but on the outside whilst eveyone else was doing the hard work.
Dow put his head over the ball more and got in close to distribute.

Cerra a better kick. Dow a harder player.

My vote. Dow.

Now drop him for Stocker.


Cerra is a class player.
Yet there's another player who was taken later in the draft than both Dow and Cerra that is playing great footy.
Averaging 22 possessions this season, 4.3 tackles, 8.3 contested possessions, more effective disposals than Cerra, more stoppage clearances and more goals. And IMHO, he has far more scope for improvement.
Lachie Fogarty.

Interesting you bring this up implying the clubs recruiting staff are now genius .


No. I've read my post several times Keogh and I cant see how I implied that anywhere.

Once again you are deflecting and pulling untruths out of your arse. I'm happy to debate with you but I cant be bothered when you stray so far from reality. Whenever you're called out you deflect and fabricate.
As recently as the past week I've been very critical of Silvagni's recruiting. But that has nothing to do with me complimenting Fogarty on his abilities nor the club trading him in. Some of our selections have been poor. This trade was excellent.

That's the difference Keogh. I offer criticism when it's required and praise when it's due. You should try objectivity. It may help drag you out of the negative mire that you dwell in.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:45 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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keogh wrote:
I want us to be successful
Not just one game where the opposition don’t turn up.
You virtually cannot carry any passengers if you want to get into a Preliminary Final.
The club has once again come out with this goal of winning a flag in 2 years or whatever.
You can’t win one if your carrying 5 or 6 players which is what happened Sunday.
That’s a fact. It ain’t being negative at all.
I would love to see what Owies, Carroll, Stocker etc can bring to the table
Cottrell and Parks need to be given a couple more goes .

I back Keogh on this.

Dominant players: Walsh, Harry, Cripps, Jones, Fogarty,

Good players: JSOS, Plowman, Curnow, Docherty, Gibbons.

OK players: Newnes, Williams (& knocked up twice), Saad, Weitering, SPS.

Players with an excuse: Parks - debut, Cottrell first game for the year and still under double figures for his career but both still did a reasonable job.

17 out of 22. We are 5 short IMHO. Out of the 5 Dow may still come good.


We have kids in the wings in form. Play them.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:54 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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We agree to disagree on several points
I do take exception to the fact you think I am too negative

Do you agree that to make top 4 you have to have every player bar maybe one contributing significantly
That’s what we all want as supporters

I don’t get to carried away with a win like that
Walsh is amazing
Cripps had a good game
If those 2 have a bad one who picks up the slack
I do read your posts
Ed shouldn’t be dropped because he is our next best mid
I went to the Hawks Carlton game last year in Perth and in the last 3 quarters we were obliterated because Walsh and Cripps had shockers. Setterfield and Kennedy virtually didn’t touch it after quarter time
Other than Ed who picked up the slack . Nobody
Has that changed
I reckon Gibbons should play more midfield because he can get it but after that there is daylight to the rest
Fogarty looks good and has definitely helped
Williams was recruited to bolster the midfield
He has played virtually all his footy has a back flanker
He hasn’t proved anything as a mid yet and $850000 a season for 5 is a massive risk

I deal with the facts and where I reckon we need to get better
Fogarty has definitely helped but we need to bat 3 or 4 deeper in the midfield because
1
We will play better opposition
2
Walsh and Cripps won’t play that well every week
We are 6 years into a rebuild
Fair enough


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:56 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Teddy Hopkins wrote:
keogh wrote:
I want us to be successful
Not just one game where the opposition don’t turn up.
You virtually cannot carry any passengers if you want to get into a Preliminary Final.
The club has once again come out with this goal of winning a flag in 2 years or whatever.
You can’t win one if your carrying 5 or 6 players which is what happened Sunday.
That’s a fact. It ain’t being negative at all.
I would love to see what Owies, Carroll, Stocker etc can bring to the table
Cottrell and Parks need to be given a couple more goes .

I back Keogh on this.

Dominant players: Walsh, Harry, Cripps, Jones, Fogarty,

Good players: JSOS, Plowman, Curnow, Docherty, Gibbons.

OK players: Newnes, Williams (& knocked up twice), Saad, Weitering, SPS.

Players with an excuse: Parks - debut, Cottrell first game for the year and still under double figures for his career but both still did a reasonable job.

17 out of 22. We are 5 short IMHO. Out of the 5 Dow may still come good.


We have kids in the wings in form. Play them.

Absolutely


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:24 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Reckon you are being harsh on Williams there Keogh. He's been good in his 2 games for us. And he started in the centre regularly for us on Sunday not the HBF.

The centre 4 was generally Pitto-Cripps-Ed and one of Walsh/Williams.

Plus he went off the ground for 2 stints with injury

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:27 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I agree with you though that we need more midfield cover in general for Cripps & Walsh though. Kennedy & Stocker looked good in the 2s

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:50 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Coaches votes:

9 Harry McKay (CARL)
8 Liam Jones (CARL)
6 Sam Walsh (CARL)
5 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
2 Lachie Fogarty (CARL)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:29 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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grrofunger wrote:
Coaches votes:

9 Harry McKay (CARL)
8 Liam Jones (CARL)
6 Sam Walsh (CARL)
5 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
2 Lachie Fogarty (CARL)

Would not give 9/10 for a full forward who cannot kick straight. That's his job.

Saying that, 8/10.

Doesn't matter how well he did in other areas.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:40 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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CK95 wrote:
Reckon you are being harsh on Williams there Keogh. He's been good in his 2 games for us. And he started in the centre regularly for us on Sunday not the HBF.

The centre 4 was generally Pitto-Cripps-Ed and one of Walsh/Williams.

Plus he went off the ground for 2 stints with injury

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On 850000 for 5 years he should be in the middle
To me the issue that the club has addressed is leg speed on the outside
That’s why they got Fogarty Williams and Saad
They are also excellent uses of the ball but now Williams has to step up and play in a harder position
I thought he was just ok on Sunday
Their was an excellent discussion on On the Couch last night About how defenders have had it so easy with slow ball movement into forward 50 s
Williams has had it easy for 8 years playing at HB and how the game has been played
Defenders are going to have to player shoulder to shoulder like the good old days otherwise there will be more blow outs
Mc Kay has huge upside but where was Cox his opponent
Away from him
Mc Kay got an armchair ride
Williams now is in the midfield and it’s too early to call how good he will be over the next 5 years in that position


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:13 pm 
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John Nicholls
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so you think we should not have recruited Williams?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:06 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Does anyone really know how much Williams is really on? I know Keogh said he deals only in fact and he said Williams is on $850k but is that fact?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:16 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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club29 wrote:
Does anyone really know how much Williams is really on? I know Keogh said he deals only in fact and he said Williams is on $850k but is that fact?


No. Keogh is quoting guesswork from the media.

FWIW, Williams is averaging more clearances than Cripps or Walsh. (Rated our number 1)
He's equal 3rd for tackles with Cripps, leading our inside 50 entries and is top 3 for contested possessions.
He's a hard worker who is playing excellent footy.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:46 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Why do we fall into the trap of basing players on their supposed salary?

If they are getting paid 800k and playing like a good 500k player they are still worthwhile to the team.

As long as we have a good grip on our overall TPP I don't have a problem.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:05 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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dannyboy wrote:
so you think we should not have recruited Williams?


It was widely reported in the media that Williams is on $850000 a year for 5 years
Saad is in $600000 a season for 5 years
Mc Govern is in the third year of a 5 year deal around $700000 a season
Martin( not the Dusty version) was the fifth highest paid player in AFL last year
He is now on $600000 a season roughly for the next 4

Of course this is speculation because unlike say the NBA where players salaries are made public
the clubs will not disclose what players get to their supporters which I think is bullshit personally

Should we have got Williams
No

He was on 500000+ and as you know I assume free agency means you have to bid higher to get that player
. Very rarely does the original club match the offer particularly if it’s $850000 for a guy who has played 98% of his games on a HBF the easiest position on the ground.
Williams and Saad and Fogarty were recruited because we lacked leg speed and good distributors
I get that but as is customary at Carlton we payed IMO way overs
It can bite you on the arse down the track
If you have a gun player who wants more money can you fit him into the salary cap
McKay
Walsh
Cripps?

In a general context my opinion is some players are incredibly overrated
Neutral example
Brad Hill
On 850000 a year for at least 4 years
Saints gave up pick 10 68 a future second rounder and Blake Acres for a future third rounder and a guy who looks a million dollars when he is on but has the heart of a grape seed

The Saints were like us
Lacked leg speed
So they go and get Jones and Hill
Big deal they went into the second week of the finals in 2020
The List Manager overrated their list. They won’t win a flag in the short term

Martin cost us bugger all in picks but he is our Hill
Brilliantly skilled but a pea heart
Williams is unproven as a mid
It’s a huge risk
On the flip side someone like Fogarty may be underrated
I hope so for our sake
He did his work experience at Geelong
As I said boys the key to being a success on the field is a good List Management team
Numero Uno


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:03 am 
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John Nicholls
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You wouldn't have gone after Williams. Okay, we disagree.

I think Williams has been really good so far and will get better. I also think its silly to guess what we pay. We do not know - the media does not know, it's a game to sell papers, that is all. As long as we spend what we can and bank what we can't, I don't give a rat's.

Take Martin, you take his whole contract (in context of all our contracts) not 1 year (and ignoring all our other contracts) - but that mightn't suit your argument.

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