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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:05 am 
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Harry Vallence

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bluechampion wrote:
CK95 wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
OUT: Williamson, Silvagni
IN: Williams, Betts



You'd retain O'Brien?


Yes. For philosophical reasons I would. I'd give him 4 weeks to settle into the team and if, after an extended run, he's made no improvement or doesn't look more comfortable at the level... I'd basically be done with him.


:clap: lets hope the match committee think the same.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:48 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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You cant carry players who don't have the physical capability required. I admire O'Brien because you can see he's trying to increase his physicality but it's mostly an after thought. He is being retained on the list because he was a top 10 pick. If he was a rookie selection, IMHO he'd be well gone.
What is his strength? On Thursday opposition players ran past him like he was standing still. His kicking was average and once again he faltered when he felt contact was coming.
Yes SPS lacks physicality but he can beat an opponent and his skills are of value. At the moment we dont have a 7th defender available so he's it. I'd try Philp in that role but at the moment he cant get on the field. Perhaps the K's they're getting into Stocker will give him the opportunity to play the role.

O'Brien shouldn't have played on Thursday night. Instead of bringing in a wingman and pushing Fisher up the ground, they should have bought in Kennedy or Cuningham to provide centre square support and pushed Murphy up to the wing. Poor selection by the MC IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:03 am 
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We looked more drilled than we have in years...Bulldogs are a Hollywood side without much bite and Collingwood matched Bulldogs in key areas including centre clearances. Just got smashed with numbers around the ball and high disposal efficiency.

Collingwood don't have taggers and don't have +1 in the midfield like Richmond. Totally different style of game.. they are still highly dependant on Pendlebury.
I think if we stick to our game plan it's a winnable game but it's going to be very tough. Moore is going to cause all sorts of headaches in the backline.... interesting at how it plays out.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:31 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Scotty12000 wrote:
Fast ball movement by hand from the Dogs tonight and some pretty frenetic tackling to keep the Filth at a comfortable arm’s length

Have we got anyone in the squad who can do this for 4 quarters next week to shut them down? We’ll need at least 90% buy in...


We play a different game style to the Dogs. In fact, the Dogs play a different game style to every other team.

Yeah they bamboozled the Pies with their slick handballs , which were not making too much ground, but enough to give them a 3 goal lead before Pies woke up.

3 goals start is where the game ended; 3 goal loss to Pies. We don't need to do anything like the Dogs did to beat Pies.

Pitto vs Grundy is where it all starts. Pitto needs to nullify Grundy; that's all.

Pendlebury is till their most important playmaker, followed by Adams. I'd tag Pendlebury with Ed and let the rest play out.

We are a physical team. We like to hit hard, and we aren't dirty or unsociable yet, but we have the makings of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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99prelim wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
CK95 wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
OUT: Williamson, Silvagni
IN: Williams, Betts



You'd retain O'Brien?


WE have gifted him enough games..

His marking efforts on the last line last night and against Saints last game atrocious.



You have got to be kidding???
Tell me how many games he's had under Teague/how many blocks of games?
SPS has no peer when it comes to being gifted games...compare SPS to Cunningham/Kennedy when it comes to the old, "everyone's equal-but some are more equal than others"


You are making a point to drop SPS; that's fine. Doesn't change the fact that we are discussing O'Brien who has been gifted games, as have all our kids since our rebuild started in 2016. All of them. Fisher responded well to the challenge, as did arguably, SPS

I'm not kidding. Chillax. You are kidding yourself if you don't believe OBrien has been gifted games. He was a surprise selection at Pick 10 by SOS for being a great runner, and a dad who played 1 game for Collingwood in 1971, one sided, leftie, but wasn't a standout player in the Under 18, playing as a Half Back Flank. Forget where he was selected in the draft and lets look at his selection to play AFL.

O'Brien turns 22 in September. He will be 21 for the duration of the year. He is still very young, and as seen on tv, still undeveloped.

He played 18 games as an 18 yo. The mantra was to give/gift the kids games to expedite their development
He played 14 games as a 19yo. The mantra continued as did the gifting of games.

Didn't get a look in 2020, he went backwards. OBrien and was a surprise selection for Thursday's game against the backdrop of form/ or lack of shown in the praccy games. But then again, we had a few runners missing in Williams, Martin, Newman, Philp, even Kemp may have had a say if he was fit, whilst Kennedy (Best in reserves for 2 weeks), Cuningham have been overlooked, not without controversy

He, along with Dow and as you say, SPS, have shown cameos, but lets not kid ourselves, coz the whole footy world knows, we gifted the high picks kids games from day dot. Stocker, Philp, Honey, Cottrell got a taste; different to gifted. They got selected on the back of consistent performances in the reserves, so I guess, they were rewarded.

SPS showed more than both Dow and OBrien in the midfield, albeit 1 year older but the jury is out with SPS as a defender. Obrien and Dow haven't shown as much as SPS, but we are discussing OBrien here, not SPS. OBrien had the most pressure acts for our team on Thursday, big tick, but he also duplicated the same howlers he displayed vs the Saints. He is not ready for the big time, imo.

I'm not saying write OBrien off, but on the SPS front, I prefer SPS on our list moreso that OBrien. Teague and co have their reasons for selecting SPS week in week out. I'm not privy to their reasoning, but I will accept that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:05 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
You cant carry players who don't have the physical capability required. I admire O'Brien because you can see he's trying to increase his physicality but it's mostly an after thought. He is being retained on the list because he was a top 10 pick. If he was a rookie selection, IMHO he'd be well gone.
What is his strength? On Thursday opposition players ran past him like he was standing still. His kicking was average and once again he faltered when he felt contact was coming.
Yes SPS lacks physicality but he can beat an opponent and his skills are of value. At the moment we dont have a 7th defender available so he's it. I'd try Philp in that role but at the moment he cant get on the field. Perhaps the K's they're getting into Stocker will give him the opportunity to play the role.

O'Brien shouldn't have played on Thursday night. Instead of bringing in a wingman and pushing Fisher up the ground, they should have bought in Kennedy or Cuningham to provide centre square support and pushed Murphy up to the wing. Poor selection by the MC IMHO.


Well said.

Philp showed what he can do with his pace over 20 metres. OBrien is an elite long distance runner, and get left behind in the sprint stakes. His running speed is not his weapon and imo people get that confused. OBrien tries. He should not have played on Thursday. He was gifted another game.

Maybe the ploy was hopeful, or, to make him look more attractive to the Collingwood recruits who were offering a pick 70 for him last year. We didn't sell because he cost SOS and therefore Carlton Pick 10. Bad selection for Pick 10 TBH. That's not his fault. Obviously SOS likes to punt. We move on and keep developing him till he is knocking the door down. If not....next.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:08 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Walsh wrote:
We looked more drilled than we have in years...Bulldogs are a Hollywood side without much bite and Collingwood matched Bulldogs in key areas including centre clearances. Just got smashed with numbers around the ball and high disposal efficiency.

Collingwood don't have taggers and don't have +1 in the midfield like Richmond. Totally different style of game.. they are still highly dependant on Pendlebury.
I think if we stick to our game plan it's a winnable game but it's going to be very tough. Moore is going to cause all sorts of headaches in the backline.... interesting at how it plays out.



Great insight Walshy.

Don't bomb it long to Moore.
Kick it high in front to a leading McKay, or lower the eyes.

Tag Pendlebury as see what they can do without him.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:09 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Don't forget deGoey.
Stats tell you he didn't kick a goal last night but of Collingwoods 18 scoring shots, he was involved in 9 of them.
He wins and uses the ball so well and he sets his team mates up beautifully.
Plowman will have his hands full but he has handled him well in the past. Fingers crossed.

In the midfield, Taylor Adams is their grunt and tough ball winner. I'd actually get Ed to body him up at the stoppages. Pendles is becoming more of a link player these days than a true ball winner IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:12 am 
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Robert Walls

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bondiblue wrote:
99prelim wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
CK95 wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
OUT: Williamson, Silvagni
IN: Williams, Betts



You'd retain O'Brien?


WE have gifted him enough games..

His marking efforts on the last line last night and against Saints last game atrocious.



You have got to be kidding???
Tell me how many games he's had under Teague/how many blocks of games?
SPS has no peer when it comes to being gifted games...compare SPS to Cunningham/Kennedy when it comes to the old, "everyone's equal-but some are more equal than others"


You are making a point to drop SPS; that's fine. Doesn't change the fact that we are discussing O'Brien who has been gifted games, as have all our kids since our rebuild started in 2016. All of them. Fisher responded well to the challenge, as did arguably, SPS

I'm not kidding. Chillax. You are kidding yourself if you don't believe OBrien has been gifted games. He was a surprise selection at Pick 10 by SOS for being a great runner, and a dad who played 1 game for Collingwood in 1971, one sided, leftie, but wasn't a standout player in the Under 18, playing as a Half Back Flank. Forget where he was selected in the draft and lets look at his selection to play AFL.

O'Brien turns 22 in September. He will be 21 for the duration of the year. He is still very young, and as seen on tv, still undeveloped.

He played 18 games as an 18 yo. The mantra was to give/gift the kids games to expedite their development
He played 14 games as a 19yo. The mantra continued as did the gifting of games.

Didn't get a look in 2020, he went backwards. OBrien and was a surprise selection for Thursday's game against the backdrop of form/ or lack of shown in the praccy games. But then again, we had a few runners missing in Williams, Martin, Newman, Philp, even Kemp may have had a say if he was fit, whilst Kennedy (Best in reserves for 2 weeks), Cuningham have been overlooked, not without controversy

He, along with Dow and as you say, SPS, have shown cameos, but lets not kid ourselves, coz the whole footy world knows, we gifted the high picks kids games from day dot. Stocker, Philp, Honey, Cottrell got a taste; different to gifted. They got selected on the back of consistent performances in the reserves, so I guess, they were rewarded.

SPS showed more than both Dow and OBrien in the midfield, albeit 1 year older but the jury is out with SPS as a defender. Obrien and Dow haven't shown as much as SPS, but we are discussing OBrien here, not SPS. OBrien had the most pressure acts for our team on Thursday, big tick, but he also duplicated the same howlers he displayed vs the Saints. He is not ready for the big time, imo.

I'm not saying write OBrien off, but on the SPS front, I prefer SPS on our list moreso that OBrien. Teague and co have their reasons for selecting SPS week in week out. I'm not privy to their reasoning, but I will accept that.


Bondi...I assure you I am chilled
O'Brien has been a disappointment. IMHO SPS has been a relatively bigger one (higher draft pick, more continuity to develop craft etc etc)
My comments were about how many games has he been gifted under Teague?
Also, I'm never a fan of discussing things in isolation because life doesn't work that way
You cannot isolate one player's treatment by the MC if there are glaring inconsistencies elsewhere (at least perceived).
My opinion remains that while O'Brien and Dow were gifted games under Bolton (which doesn't always equate to accelerated development), the perception with Teague is that some players are untouchable in the firsts, regardless of their output and some players need to bang down more doors that the opening credits of a Get Smart episode to get into the firsts
We'll agree to disagree as I really enjoy reading your posts

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:33 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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The issue is and has been for some time now is the long list of injuries we always have.
We either recruit injury prone players or have the worst luck or the worst fitness recovery program.

We sit here and give out at Obrien when he should not even been considered because Martin and Williams should have played.
Same applies to SPS if newman and marchbank are available does he play.
Cunningham can't string more than 4 games together.
McGovern is always injured
JSOS another.
Eddie TDK and of course Charlie.
These players aren't gifted games they are playing because others that fill that role are sidelined. The back up is becoming the main event.

We are worse than GWS at keeping players on the park and they are terrible.

Fancy coming into round 1 with a dozen players either not available or passing fitness test.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:00 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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99prelim wrote

Quote:
Bondi...I assure you I am chilled
O'Brien has been a disappointment. IMHO SPS has been a relatively bigger one (higher draft pick, more continuity to develop craft etc etc)
My comments were about how many games has he been gifted under Teague?
Also, I'm never a fan of discussing things in isolation because life doesn't work that way
You cannot isolate one player's treatment by the MC if there are glaring inconsistencies elsewhere (at least perceived).
My opinion remains that while O'Brien and Dow were gifted games under Bolton (which doesn't always equate to accelerated development), the perception with Teague is that some players are untouchable in the firsts, regardless of their output and some players need to bang down more doors that the opening credits of a Get Smart episode to get into the firsts
We'll agree to disagree as I really enjoy reading your posts


As Carltonians, we have plenty of emotional scars to show from the last 2 decades.
Its hard not to be emotional, and I don't believe for a minute posters at TC or any other of the great Carlton fan forums, are not emotionally invested in our rise on the ladder and the Holy Grail; No.17.

To answer your question re Teague gifting games to Obrien, that started when Bolton was sacked in June 2019 before round 13.

In 2019, Teague selected OBrien to play 10 consecutive games, so he got a good look at Lochie.
In 2020, Teague played OBrien vs The Crows game last year, which we lost; a really bad loss.
In 2021, the last game was 'gifted' by Teague, because it wasn't due to outstanding form in praccy games. Surprised us all, despite me giving reasons why Teague could select OBrien a week prior to the game, and it was not form related. We are an injury depleted list with a few underdone players playing on a big ground; hence runners wanted.

Teague and his favourites is another subject matter altogether. Its been discussed but I don't think its as big an issue as you make it.

McGovern I agree, like most onlookers, he was gifted games last year. Guilty... but that didn't cost OBrien a look.
Betts, I know is another you think is playing because of Teague's perceived favouritism, but I disagree with that. I rate Bettsy higher than any other small forward on our list at this minute, circa 2021, on any metric (other than years left in the game) AND Betts does not cost OBrien a spot in the 22.

Pick 5 (SPS) vs Pick 10 (Lochie) is subjective.

Firstly. have a look at the players SOS missed out on by taking those 2 players, and also have a look at their individual output. I'd guess you'd be on your own if you think OBrien has been better value thus far as a footballer. Maybe the numbers don't show that much difference, but for you the eye test suggests SPS has been gifted 81 games, and for me my eye test suggests OBrien hasn't done himself any favours in his 31 games.

Whilst you may think SPS doesn't cut it as a Defender, don't you believe that SPS might be better as a mid/forward of Forward/mid? or worth a consideration? or are you writing SPS off altogether? I'm interested. Everyone has a reason for their viewpoint, so its of value if you're a Carltonian.

SPS has incredible hands. Some of the things he did on Thursday winning the hot ground ball, and sometimes out of opposition hands is mesmerising. Maybe his defensive work is questionable, which it has been, and manning up is a bit loose at times, maybe not instinctive, and he's forced to play a role not ideal for his skillset but best available for now

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:01 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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Drop Pittonet as he’s not a good matchup for Grundy and have Oscar should play the Scott Howell role on Grundy.

Alternatively have Oscar play the Scott Howell role on Moore.

In: Oscar, Williams, Martin, Betts
out: Pittonet, Silvagni, Murphy, O’Brien
23: Kennedy


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:07 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Sydney Blue wrote:
The issue is and has been for some time now is the long list of injuries we always have.
We either recruit injury prone players or have the worst luck or the worst fitness recovery program.

We sit here and give out at Obrien when he should not even been considered because Martin and Williams should have played.
Same applies to SPS if newman and marchbank are available does he play. Its why Williamson and SPS are playing back imo
Cunningham can't string more than 4 games together.
McGovern is always injured
JSOS another.
Eddie TDK and of course Charlie.
These players aren't gifted games they are playing because others that fill that role are sidelined. [color=#FFFF00]The back up is becoming the main event.


We are worse than GWS at keeping players on the park and they are terrible.

Fancy coming into round 1 with a dozen players either not available or passing fitness test.



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Good point you make re gifting games. Maybe moreso in Bolton's year, and Teague didn't want to disrupt what had already beed in place whilst he is only a 'caretaker coach'.

Injuries :mad: vs Opportunities. Has been a long time since injury has unearthed a player...maybe last seen with Jones and Levi as KPD's

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:08 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Sydney Blue wrote:
The issue is and has been for some time now is the long list of injuries we always have.
We either recruit injury prone players or have the worst luck or the worst fitness recovery program.

We sit here and give out at Obrien when he should not even been considered because Martin and Williams should have played.
Same applies to SPS if newman and marchbank are available does he play.
Cunningham can't string more than 4 games together.
McGovern is always injured
JSOS another.
Eddie TDK and of course Charlie.
These players aren't gifted games they are playing because others that fill that role are sidelined. The back up is becoming the main event.

We are worse than GWS at keeping players on the park and they are terrible.

Fancy coming into round 1 with a dozen players either not available or passing fitness test.



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Those injuries also stunt the development of other players. They’re either played out of position or played when out of form or worse, not ready.

Ive almost given up on Charlie and Marchbank, I have significant concerns for Kemp


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:15 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Williamson often crops up as an out and I just don't see it. I like his willingness to take the game on, he has the spark that we have lacked for years.

He's the sort of bloke that should be playing, getting continuity and making us stronger.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:28 am 
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Wayne Johnston

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bluehammer wrote:
Williamson often crops up as an out and I just don't see it. I like his willingness to take the game on, he has the spark that we have lacked for years.

He's the sort of bloke that should be playing, getting continuity and making us stronger.

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He need to find a right foot if he’s to have a long career.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:38 am 
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John Nicholls
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Sydney Blue wrote:
The issue is and has been for some time now is the long list of injuries we always have.
We either recruit injury prone players or have the worst luck or the worst fitness recovery program.

We sit here and give out at Obrien when he should not even been considered because Martin and Williams should have played.
Same applies to SPS if newman and marchbank are available does he play.
Cunningham can't string more than 4 games together.
McGovern is always injured
JSOS another.
Eddie TDK and of course Charlie.
These players aren't gifted games they are playing because others that fill that role are sidelined. The back up is becoming the main event.

We are worse than GWS at keeping players on the park and they are terrible.

Fancy coming into round 1 with a dozen players either not available or passing fitness test.



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There it is, folks. We need to get players on the park and we need to give the best team we have time to gel.

Andrew Russell is the most important guy at the club right now. Managed to do it at Hawthorn... why can't he do it for us?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:43 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Sydney Blue wrote:

Fancy coming into round 1 with a dozen players either not available or passing fitness test.



Yep, playing an underdone casboult after a whole preseason says it all about where we are at



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:44 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Blue Vain wrote:
AGRO wrote:
Out O’Brien, in my dead grandmother.


He should be ashamed of himself



Most should be


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:00 am 
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Rod Ashman
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CFC8795 wrote:
Another season-defining-must-win-line-in-the-sand-game. :smoking:



I'm not sure if you're joking or not CFC but it's time to make a stand. I was't upset that we lost the game but more with the defensive efforts and commitment of physicality that we gave. We were pushed and smacked and all we gave back were smirks. What a bunch of skirts. Vlaustin, Pickett, Astbury just to mention even though i could go through most of their team, wtf. Fight back you bunch of wimps. I have never been so discussed to be a Carlton supporter. The sad thing was we knew it was going to happen and did nothing about it and that mean our pussy attitude starts with our !@#$% coaches. We will win a few games but without that prick mentality we will not achieve much. All the great team have it, we don't. Get it or perish for another 30 years.


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