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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:44 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
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Location: Princess Park
What's the deal with McGovern? contracted again for 2022?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:58 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:41 pm
Posts: 4087
Donstuie wrote:
Hornet wrote:
billc3 wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
IMO....

We need more mongrel, toughness necessary to win unsociable Grand finals, let alone win week to week consistently.


I was hoping that this would come from some of our existing players.... And the coach (posted in the Teague thread) .. Doesn't seem to be happening...

Zac Williams was rubbed out round 1, but the positive was he SHOWED SOME!



Go Blues


When our coach showed some mongrel late last year some in our “leadership” group weren’t too impressed... kinda sums up our current predicament. As Judd once said, too many players looking after their own contract rather than team success... it’s plagued us for way too long.

We’re a nowhere club


The Prendercast summed it up well by saying that the immediate response from Teague to that should’ve been “where do you want to be traded to?”.

The softness of our team is matched by the body language and performances.
I'll drive....

Go Blues

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:09 pm 
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John James

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Posts: 668
Blue4ever wrote:
What's the deal with McGovern? contracted again for 2022?



and 23 I'm pretty sure


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:22 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 3839
Lets be honest this rebuild is starting to look very much like the 2005-12 "rebuild".
Too many draft misses with Dow, O'Brien, SPS in particular and then key injuries to Charlie and Marchbank. McGovern was a poor trade and Kennedy is too slow. Hopefully Stocker, Kemp, Philp and Carroll can become quality players.

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Last edited by Humpers on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:47 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4838
Humpers wrote:
Lets be honest this rebuild is starting to look very much like the 2005-12 "rebuild".
Too many draft misses with Dow, O'Brien, SPS in particular and then key injuries to Charlie and Marchbank. McGovern was a poor trade. Hopefully Stocker, Kemp, Philp and Carroll can become quality players.



Here is the deal
When a kid is drafted from the ND they have to be on the list for 2 years
But they need to show something in the first year that gives you the impression they have what it takes to play at the highest level
So many blokes SOS picked particularly mids have not shown that

That’s why I was so filthy about the McGovern and Setterfield trades
We gave up collectively 3 picks in the 20s McAdam and Kreuger for one bloke who wasn’t proven at all and a cameo player who was consistently injured and couldn’t keep himself fit at his previous club after
Our worst year on record
SOS needed to change his List Strategy
Add all the blokes he recruited from other clubs who are gone no good late picks rookie picks other than Gibbons it’s not looking good
Watch how other teams do it
We overate players because of where they were pick up in the draft and under rate others

Never pick someone to do a job that is important by name


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:00 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14871
Location: Bondi Beach
We cut the list too deep, too long to replace with kids.

We didn't get in seasoned players with some of our high draft picks. ie a balance of quality players with experience and kids.

We have some hard working seniors, but the class is just lacking. Then McGovern on huge bucks, and he was still undeveloped...and still is.

We were never going to be able to blood 17 first round undeveloped players with most selected within a 4 year window. Never.

SOS thought his GWS model would mean he could use some of the high draft picked in Trades if we couldn't fit them in the 22, to improve on what we had.

Pick 10 OBrien for pick 75 from Pies was not quite what SOS had in mind, but its the situation he's got us in now.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:21 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I disagree
I don’t see the point in picking a player from another club top give us another “ mature body”
I would rather pick a kid or a player from the lower leagues who has matured late like Mc Adam or Collins from GC


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:48 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14871
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
I disagree
I don’t see the point in picking a player from another club top give us another “ mature body”
I would rather pick a kid or a player from the lower leagues who has matured late like Mc Adam or Collins from GC



I never said "mature body", I said an experienced quality player. They cost players or high draft picks or both.

McAdam looks great at times, but the last 2 rounds with Crows firing he has been quite conditional with his attack on the man and ball ie forward pressure. I like him though and I dig your point regarding the other leagues where you will find tough uncompromising footballers who could add to the team.

I love Collins at the GC. There's gems there.

What I think keogh is that its a balance between what you propose and what we have done.

The problem is always going to be picking the right player. No doubt there's gems in lower leagues which have been overlooked with our latter picks. Lambert anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:17 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 6016
Maybe I got stars in my eyes and 2021 has started dreadfully with injuries as always with key players 0-2 as usual and an insipid uninspiring and mentally weak match against Collingwood where we leak goals like it is going out of fashion but I think we don’t have a bad list .
I don’t think our development of players is great and that is a real problem and has been for 20 years and are we playing a game style brand of footy that wins games .
I wonder how the list would be developed at say Sydney and what gamestyle we would have if we were at Sydney.
Something has to change fundamentally at Carlton as 2021 could be a train wreck if it isn’t rectified and we will be sitting here 0-2 next year
Collectively club needs to wake up and if the board and coaches fitness guys can’t get this side firing see ya


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:20 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 6016
Moreover a list with Williams Saad Cripps docherty walsh H surely should be able to win games even where we have a number of foot soldiers


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:23 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 6016
Sorry should have added Weitering to that list


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:23 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 6016
and Martin :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:45 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 1539
frank dardew wrote:
Maybe I got stars in my eyes and 2021 has started dreadfully with injuries as always with key players 0-2 as usual and an insipid uninspiring and mentally weak match against Collingwood where we leak goals like it is going out of fashion but I think we don’t have a bad list .
I don’t think our development of players is great and that is a real problem and has been for 20 years and are we playing a game style brand of footy that wins games .
I wonder how the list would be developed at say Sydney and what gamestyle we would have if we were at Sydney.
Something has to change fundamentally at Carlton as 2021 could be a train wreck if it isn’t rectified and we will be sitting here 0-2 next year
Collectively club needs to wake up and if the board and coaches fitness guys can’t get this side firing see ya


Agree Frank especially on the development front. We seem to be terrible at that. Don't know how much of that is on the staff and how much of that is on the players not wanting to get the absolute best out of themselves which I guess comes back to culture.
Injuries haven't been great, but some clubs like Freo who we play this week have had it worse.
Also, I don't think we can rely on Charlie or Marchy so with that, don't think we were missing too many from our best 22 last Thursday night.
Be interesting to see how we go this week playing at home against an interstate side who has been more ravaged by injury than us and coached by a more inexperienced coach too.
Will be very telling.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:36 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 15009
frank dardew wrote:
Moreover a list with Williams Saad Cripps docherty walsh H surely should be able to win games even where we have a number of foot soldiers



Correct.

Our list is significantly better than last year.

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 Post subject: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Anyone questioning whether drafting or development is the biggest issue, only needs to look back to where the kids were expected to go before the draft. Calling them busts now is easy to do in hindsight.

This analysis tells me that the top kids we drafted were ‘right’ at the time but have clearly been poorly developed, while things are a bit greyer when it comes to later picks.

Overall, poor development is clearly a bigger issue IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:06 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1376
Donstuie wrote:
Anyone questioning whether drafting or development is the biggest issue, only needs to look back to where the kids were expected to go before the draft. Calling them busts now is easy to do in hindsight.

This analysis tells me that the top kids we drafted were ‘right’ at the time but have clearly been poorly developed, while things are a bit greyer when it comes to later picks.

Overall, poor development is clearly a bigger issue IMO.


It’s pretty obvious that player development has been an issue for a long time

In a rebuild we should be nailing those early draft picks and introducing them to a player development system that gives them the best chance to succeed

Otherwise, the rebuild will fail every time.

Although, our biggest issue is a cultural one. A losing culture that has seeped into our club and we have been unable to break that cycle. Losing consistently over many years definitely stifles player development.

Sorry, but I have been repeating the same point for the last 10 years. Would be nice to move beyond this point.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:31 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 15009
Donstuie wrote:
Anyone questioning whether drafting or development is the biggest issue, only needs to look back to where the kids were expected to go before the draft. Calling them busts now is easy to do in hindsight.


Who?

Philp. Went earlier than expected. Silvagni thought his late season form was very good in the under 18's and pushed him in to contention.
17 other recruiters probably realised it's easier to shine when the best players are absent playing in the championships. Apparently Richmond were ready too pounce. :sly:

Ramsay. Ditto Philp. SOS was impressed that his late season form was much better. :donk:

Stocker. A surprise early selection but apparently Richmond were ready to pounce. :screwy:

And how none of them to date realised we need a project ruckman is beyond me.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:56 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Who care if they went at 5 or they should have gone at 15. Our development is crap.
We gift games to rookies that do not want it enough.
We drop young players after a week of promoting them.
We do not reward form reserves players.
We play favorites with seniors that for one reason or another should not get a game.
Just to name a few reasons our development is second rate not to mention the coaching during games either but the biggest grip would be is that we have the weakest senior squad available to instruct and lead our younger players.
Murphy, Curnow, Simpson, Gibbs, Casboult, Thomas, Kreuzer fmd. Who is a strong player the rookies can lean on when needed. NOT ONE.
There’s your development.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:05 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: afl.virtualsports.com.au
Blue Vain wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Anyone questioning whether drafting or development is the biggest issue, only needs to look back to where the kids were expected to go before the draft. Calling them busts now is easy to do in hindsight.


Who?

Philp. Went earlier than expected. Silvagni thought his late season form was very good in the under 18's and pushed him in to contention.
17 other recruiters probably realised it's easier to shine when the best players are absent playing in the championships. Apparently Richmond were ready too pounce. :sly:

Ramsay. Ditto Philp. SOS was impressed that his late season form was much better. :donk:

Stocker. A surprise early selection but apparently Richmond were ready to pounce. :screwy:

And how none of them to date realised we need a project ruckman is beyond me.


SOS stuffed it up. Massively.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 405
Agree with all those posters saying how bad our development is. It’s been a problem for 20 years yet no one at the club fixes it. The way I see it developing a reliable senior player has a number or facets and we seem to fail on almost all of them.

(1) Do our coaches actually teach our young players to play the right way? And by the right way I mean doing the tough team things - tackle, chase, pressure, block, shepherd, body line the ball etc. I bet they say all the right things to the players but when you continue to reward conditional players with games you are not setting the right standard. When young Carroll sits at the MCG last week and watched a former captain not tackle or chase, what does that say about what is actually required to play senior footy for the club? Don’t expect the kids to become tough when you reward weak efforts.

(2) Are the players and especially leaders actually equipped to develop our youth? Who is the winner in our leadership group? Cripps, Doc, Jones, Murphy, Walsh and Weiters. I think Murph is the only one of those that has even played in a final, let alone winning a flag. No premiership player on the list. What is better for a kids development - walking into a club with Joel Selwood training like a man possessed or our leaders who haven’t won anything? This isn’t so much a failure of our leaders but a failure of the club to actually get some winners into the joint.

(3) Do we prioritise players with mongrel and a win at all costs mentality when recruiting them? Walsh is a standout but look at his work ethic. He never stops. He pushes himself to the absolute limit to get every bit out of himself for the club. What about Dow - does he do this? LOB? setterfield? SPS? I don’t put as much blame on the players in terms of development due to the two failures outlined above but really at some point you need to take ownership for your career and not just cruise along. But really that goes back to having coaches and leaders who won’t accept cruising along, which we don’t have


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