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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:21 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
I thought we may play finals with a bit of luck in 2020.
Luck didn't come our way losing Kreuzer, Charlie, Marchbank, Silvagni and Newman for the year.
If we take out the worst quarter from all our games this year, we are on top of the ladder, 4 games ahead of 2nd, and a % of 154%
Season isn't over. Need to see what Austin in his first year as List Manager delivers.
Overall very satisfied with the year because we have a platform to build on for 2021 Finals.

PROS

Return of Docherty
Walsh & Weitering (confirming their status as future AA's and Leaders)
Levi's and Betts contribution first 7 rounds beyond expectation
Pittonet and TDK a revelation in the ruck. Convinced TDK is the future.
Setterfield's improvement and only 22yo
Martin's aggression and intensity, set new benchmark (almost Hickmott like at times)
Beating Geelong at Geelong, Effen*don at the G,
First quarter slaughter of finalists Cats and WCE
First quarter slaughter vs Haw and North
4th most quarters won
Cottrells and Newnes kicking winning goals
Last years draftees look good: Honey, Philp, Ramsay
Percentage
Slow starts costing us wins vs Tigers, Dees, Saints, Port
Membership 67,000 for a team that finished bottom 4.
We are not that far off. Club on the rise. Destination Club.
The quality Trades will happen this year.

CONS

Injuries and out for the year Kreuzer, Charlie, Marchbank, Silvagni and Newman (huge holes)
Cripps ineffective disposals, kicking for goals and inability to dominate
McGovern most disappointing player.
Slow starts costing us wins vs Tigers, Dees, Saints, Crows
Fade outs that cost us games vs Port, Hawks, WCE, Pies
Inaccurate kicking.
Murphy's inconsistent season, lacking leadership.
Allowing opposition to kick 5 goals straight 7 times. No leadership.
Docherty and Cripps playing injured
OBrien and Dow didn't take the next step.
Umpiring allowed to decide our fate. Club and Coach should speak up
Didn't take our chances to play finals vs Pies GWS and Crows
Lack of much needed positional moves y Teague (unlike last year when he did)
Didn't hear the Carlton Army willing us over the line.
Continuous negative media from the usual haters
No Rising Stars. TDK should have been nominated.
Seeing the end of an era with retirement of Kreuzer and Simpson
I have nightmares of Malthouse every time I see Ratten.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4752
aboynamedsue wrote:
PROS
- Walsh. No second year blues, in fact he improved in difficult circumstances and is a B&F chance. Gun.
- Weitering. Has become the player we hoped he would be. An example for persisting with young talent because he had his doubters 18 months ago. Dow & O’Brien take note!
- Martin. We’d like him to be more consistent, but for a guy we got for nothing he has been a resounding success. A match winner type.
- Setterfield. After a shaky start to the year, established himself and should get better. I wish more tackled like him.
- Newnes & Pittonet. Exceeded expectations and should be handy over the next few seasons.
- Docherty & Williamson. Their form fluctuated, but it was great to see them back out there. They will be better next year.
- TDK & Harry. It’s exciting to have couple of talented young talls coming through. I’ve been critical of Harry but it looked the penny started to drop late in the season.
- E Curnow, Gibbons & Plowman were solid.
- Cottrall, Philp, Honey & Owies got a taste.
- Number of quarters won.

CONS
- No proper reserves competition meant our group of young players missed a year of development and the step up from 12 a side scratch matches to AFL was simply too much when they came in.
- Dow, O’Brien, Cunningham & McGovern did not take the steps forward we needed them to.
- Charlie, SOJ, Newman, Marchbank & Macreadie had wasted years.
- Stocker. We still don’t know what happened there. I hope he is busy getting fit somewhere.
- Kreuzer. The end came quickly and cruelly.
- Our bad was the worst in the competition and we showed it too often.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN
- Betts helped us pick up some extra members, TV viewers and ‘good will’ - but his on field impact was marginal. He applied good forward pressure and was like playing assistant coach, but simply did not kick enough goals.
- Murphy’s season was not as bad as some say (I expect him to be top 10 in the B&F) but it is an indictment on our young mids that he is still comfortably in our best 22.
- Casboult was a Pro in the first half of the year and a Con in the second half. He served up some absolute rubbish late in the season. He may have been carrying an injury, or the mental/emotional toll of 2020 may have got to him. It’s a shame because he was terrific before that.
- Cripps did not have one of his better seasons, but on the flip side, we won games when he was quiet. In fact, I thought there were times we looked better when he was out of the middle.
- Simmo retiring while still playing good footy.

WHERE WILL THE IMPROVEMENT COME IN 2021?
We will be better with Charlie, Marchbank, Newman, SOJ & Kemp available. But that’s offset to a degree by the loss of Simmo and the inevitability of other injuries.
A lot rests on the continued improvement of Docherty, Fisher, Harry, Setterfield, SPS, TDK & Williamson.
Martin, Walsh & Weitering must maintain their 2020 form; and we need at least a couple of Cottrell, Cunningham, Dow, Honey, Kemp, O’Brien, Philp, Ramsay & Stocker to step up a level.
Cripps should have a better year in 2021.

DELISTINGS/TRADES
It’s a very important off season coming up. Wrong decisions on our list could set us back significantly at this point. I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile. Moreover, the club has publicly said it will look to stabilise the list; ie. no major turnover planned.
Accordingly, I expect us to make the minimum number of delistings (noting the minimum number will increase if list sizes are reduced).
Kreuzer, Lang, O’Dwyer, Simpson & Goddard (rookie list) will be cut. Kennedy, Macreadie, Polson, B.Silvagni & Owies (rookie list) could go too, depending on list numbers next year.

RECRUITMENT PRIORITIES
It’s a no brainer, the best result would be to land a quality midfielder via FA so that we don’t need to trade out good players or picks. Carlton has not been good at doing this, so Austin & co will need to work very hard to turn it around.
A ruckman (ideally a 21-24 year old from another club or state leagues) and a small forward are needs I would attempt to address via DFA (there might be some decent players available via DFA this year, due to reduced lists), secondary trades (mid/late draft picks) or in the draft itself.

In short, I think the improvement will need to largely come from within in 2021; it will be a massive, massive bonus if we can somehow attract a quality midfielder via FA.


I agree with most of it
Not on Martin
Setterfield needs to get his hands dirty. He is often second in line at ball ups
That’s why his tackle numbers are high

Free Agency
I have said no
I’ll retract
Yes but it’s got to be the right player
We need a runner
Not a slow inside beast

On Martin
He isn’t as good as people make out
As I said before the industry for whatever reason overrates certain players
Shiel Cogs
Martin couldn’t even get a game at GC at times
Needs a rocket up his arse


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:24 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:51 pm
Posts: 392
6 months to work and find new Game plan


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4752
We certainly need mids
Kennedy might have earned a contract on last nights effort
But I still view him as a forward
Has terrific hands good kick and plays like a natural forward
He can pinch it in the middle if need be

The forward line looks good
But
Mids
Mids
Mids


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:39 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 4156
keogh wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
PROS
- Walsh. No second year blues, in fact he improved in difficult circumstances and is a B&F chance. Gun.
- Weitering. Has become the player we hoped he would be. An example for persisting with young talent because he had his doubters 18 months ago. Dow & O’Brien take note!
- Martin. We’d like him to be more consistent, but for a guy we got for nothing he has been a resounding success. A match winner type.
- Setterfield. After a shaky start to the year, established himself and should get better. I wish more tackled like him.
- Newnes & Pittonet. Exceeded expectations and should be handy over the next few seasons.
- Docherty & Williamson. Their form fluctuated, but it was great to see them back out there. They will be better next year.
- TDK & Harry. It’s exciting to have couple of talented young talls coming through. I’ve been critical of Harry but it looked the penny started to drop late in the season.
- E Curnow, Gibbons & Plowman were solid.
- Cottrall, Philp, Honey & Owies got a taste.
- Number of quarters won.

CONS
- No proper reserves competition meant our group of young players missed a year of development and the step up from 12 a side scratch matches to AFL was simply too much when they came in.
- Dow, O’Brien, Cunningham & McGovern did not take the steps forward we needed them to.
- Charlie, SOJ, Newman, Marchbank & Macreadie had wasted years.
- Stocker. We still don’t know what happened there. I hope he is busy getting fit somewhere.
- Kreuzer. The end came quickly and cruelly.
- Our bad was the worst in the competition and we showed it too often.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN
- Betts helped us pick up some extra members, TV viewers and ‘good will’ - but his on field impact was marginal. He applied good forward pressure and was like playing assistant coach, but simply did not kick enough goals.
- Murphy’s season was not as bad as some say (I expect him to be top 10 in the B&F) but it is an indictment on our young mids that he is still comfortably in our best 22.
- Casboult was a Pro in the first half of the year and a Con in the second half. He served up some absolute rubbish late in the season. He may have been carrying an injury, or the mental/emotional toll of 2020 may have got to him. It’s a shame because he was terrific before that.
- Cripps did not have one of his better seasons, but on the flip side, we won games when he was quiet. In fact, I thought there were times we looked better when he was out of the middle.
- Simmo retiring while still playing good footy.

WHERE WILL THE IMPROVEMENT COME IN 2021?
We will be better with Charlie, Marchbank, Newman, SOJ & Kemp available. But that’s offset to a degree by the loss of Simmo and the inevitability of other injuries.
A lot rests on the continued improvement of Docherty, Fisher, Harry, Setterfield, SPS, TDK & Williamson.
Martin, Walsh & Weitering must maintain their 2020 form; and we need at least a couple of Cottrell, Cunningham, Dow, Honey, Kemp, O’Brien, Philp, Ramsay & Stocker to step up a level.
Cripps should have a better year in 2021.

DELISTINGS/TRADES
It’s a very important off season coming up. Wrong decisions on our list could set us back significantly at this point. I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile. Moreover, the club has publicly said it will look to stabilise the list; ie. no major turnover planned.
Accordingly, I expect us to make the minimum number of delistings (noting the minimum number will increase if list sizes are reduced).
Kreuzer, Lang, O’Dwyer, Simpson & Goddard (rookie list) will be cut. Kennedy, Macreadie, Polson, B.Silvagni & Owies (rookie list) could go too, depending on list numbers next year.

RECRUITMENT PRIORITIES
It’s a no brainer, the best result would be to land a quality midfielder via FA so that we don’t need to trade out good players or picks. Carlton has not been good at doing this, so Austin & co will need to work very hard to turn it around.
A ruckman (ideally a 21-24 year old from another club or state leagues) and a small forward are needs I would attempt to address via DFA (there might be some decent players available via DFA this year, due to reduced lists), secondary trades (mid/late draft picks) or in the draft itself.

In short, I think the improvement will need to largely come from within in 2021; it will be a massive, massive bonus if we can somehow attract a quality midfielder via FA.


I agree with most of it
Not on Martin
Setterfield needs to get his hands dirty. He is often second in line at ball ups
That’s why his tackle numbers are high

Free Agency
I have said no
I’ll retract
Yes but it’s got to be the right player
We need a runner
Not a slow inside beast

On Martin
He isn’t as good as people make out
As I said before the industry for whatever reason overrates certain players
Shiel Cogs
Martin couldn’t even get a game at GC at times
Needs a rocket up his arse

Fair enough. Although I did preface my comment on Martin by saying we’d like him to be more consistent and put it in the context of a player we got for nothing. If he can consistently play like he did in the 2nd half last night, it will be one the great recruiting coups.
I take your point on Setterfield, but at least he tackles like he means it - they rarely get away from him.
Much more good than bad from both players this year, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:57 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
PROS
- Walsh. No second year blues, in fact he improved in difficult circumstances and is a B&F chance. Gun.
- Weitering. Has become the player we hoped he would be. An example for persisting with young talent because he had his doubters 18 months ago. Dow & O’Brien take note!
- Martin. We’d like him to be more consistent, but for a guy we got for nothing he has been a resounding success. A match winner type.
- Setterfield. After a shaky start to the year, established himself and should get better. I wish more tackled like him.
- Newnes & Pittonet. Exceeded expectations and should be handy over the next few seasons.
- Docherty & Williamson. Their form fluctuated, but it was great to see them back out there. They will be better next year.
- TDK & Harry. It’s exciting to have couple of talented young talls coming through. I’ve been critical of Harry but it looked the penny started to drop late in the season.
- E Curnow, Gibbons & Plowman were solid.
- Cottrall, Philp, Honey & Owies got a taste.
- Number of quarters won.

CONS
- No proper reserves competition meant our group of young players missed a year of development and the step up from 12 a side scratch matches to AFL was simply too much when they came in.
- Dow, O’Brien, Cunningham & McGovern did not take the steps forward we needed them to.
- Charlie, SOJ, Newman, Marchbank & Macreadie had wasted years.
- Stocker. We still don’t know what happened there. I hope he is busy getting fit somewhere.
- Kreuzer. The end came quickly and cruelly.
- Our bad was the worst in the competition and we showed it too often.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN
- Betts helped us pick up some extra members, TV viewers and ‘good will’ - but his on field impact was marginal. He applied good forward pressure and was like playing assistant coach, but simply did not kick enough goals.
- Murphy’s season was not as bad as some say (I expect him to be top 10 in the B&F) but it is an indictment on our young mids that he is still comfortably in our best 22.
- Casboult was a Pro in the first half of the year and a Con in the second half. He served up some absolute rubbish late in the season. He may have been carrying an injury, or the mental/emotional toll of 2020 may have got to him. It’s a shame because he was terrific before that.
- Cripps did not have one of his better seasons, but on the flip side, we won games when he was quiet. In fact, I thought there were times we looked better when he was out of the middle.
- Simmo retiring while still playing good footy.

WHERE WILL THE IMPROVEMENT COME IN 2021?
We will be better with Charlie, Marchbank, Newman, SOJ & Kemp available. But that’s offset to a degree by the loss of Simmo and the inevitability of other injuries.
A lot rests on the continued improvement of Docherty, Fisher, Harry, Setterfield, SPS, TDK & Williamson.
Martin, Walsh & Weitering must maintain their 2020 form; and we need at least a couple of Cottrell, Cunningham, Dow, Honey, Kemp, O’Brien, Philp, Ramsay & Stocker to step up a level.
Cripps should have a better year in 2021.

DELISTINGS/TRADES
It’s a very important off season coming up. Wrong decisions on our list could set us back significantly at this point. I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile. Moreover, the club has publicly said it will look to stabilise the list; ie. no major turnover planned.
Accordingly, I expect us to make the minimum number of delistings (noting the minimum number will increase if list sizes are reduced).
Kreuzer, Lang, O’Dwyer, Simpson & Goddard (rookie list) will be cut. Kennedy, Macreadie, Polson, B.Silvagni & Owies (rookie list) could go too, depending on list numbers next year.

RECRUITMENT PRIORITIES
It’s a no brainer, the best result would be to land a quality midfielder via FA so that we don’t need to trade out good players or picks. Carlton has not been good at doing this, so Austin & co will need to work very hard to turn it around.
A ruckman (ideally a 21-24 year old from another club or state leagues) and a small forward are needs I would attempt to address via DFA (there might be some decent players available via DFA this year, due to reduced lists), secondary trades (mid/late draft picks) or in the draft itself.

In short, I think the improvement will need to largely come from within in 2021; it will be a massive, massive bonus if we can somehow attract a quality midfielder via FA.


I agree with most of it
Not on Martin
Setterfield needs to get his hands dirty. He is often second in line at ball ups
That’s why his tackle numbers are high

Free Agency
I have said no
I’ll retract
Yes but it’s got to be the right player
We need a runner
Not a slow inside beast

On Martin
He isn’t as good as people make out
As I said before the industry for whatever reason overrates certain players
Shiel Cogs
Martin couldn’t even get a game at GC at times
Needs a rocket up his arse


Care to elaborate on that.

Prefer something closer to the truth as to why he was dropped.


...and what do people make out of Martin's form or ability you don't agree with? Interested to see who said he was as good if not better than Dusty, Danger, Cripps ... or whoever....that should tell us something about those posters.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:01 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:19 am
Posts: 758
Location: Melbourne
Pros
We are not far off. :thumbsup:

Cons
We are miles off. :banghead:

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Last edited by CFC8795 on Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:04 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 3795
aboynamedsue wrote:
DELISTINGS/TRADES
I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile.

Apparently we are interested in Jack Graham from Richmond. I wonder if we would consider Dow as part of this trade if the Tigers were interested (brothers playing together etc).

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
Humpers wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
DELISTINGS/TRADES
I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile.

Apparently we are interested in Jack Graham from Richmond. I wonder if we would consider Dow as part of this trade if the Tigers were interested (brothers playing together etc).



we could get him cheaper than that.

dow is worth more than graham imo ... but i get your point.

right this minute graham >>> dow

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:12 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 4156
I know you need to give something good to get something good, but my instinct with Dow is to keep him. Dow is exactly the type of player we need if he can get his act together. I appreciate that’s a rather big “if”.

Different story if he wants out, which might be the case if he feels he needs a fresh start. My asking price would be steep though....

I’m a little more minded to trade SPS if a reasonable offer is out there. If he stays, he needs to graduate to a mid/forward role.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:20 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2279
SurreyBlue wrote:
redback wrote:
Waste of a year


:lol:

Old school redback - positive reinforcement. :idea:

:lol:



I’m positive we need a few things reinforced :razz:


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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 4156
jim wrote:
WOW wrote:
Pros

Weitering and Walsh
Setterfield has improved
Competitive
McKay looks promising, however needs a better midfield to fulfil potential

Cons

Lack of player development with our early draft picks and second tier midfielders such as Dow, O’Brien, SPS, Fisher & Cunningham. Could result in a failed rebuild if there is no significant improvement in 2021.

Murphy softness
Betts cooked and getting another contract
Lack of cohesive ball movement
Loser mentality still pervades this club
Cripps yet to sign an extension to contract


One of the issues is we had there was throwing them to the wolves with big jobs way too early when they should've been developing playing lesser roles. I don't think it did them any good whatsoever. Hence why you still need experience when rebuilding. Dow was terrific for the first season and a bit but his confidence got shot performing tasks he wasn't ready for. We id the same with Weitering, and he struggled big time, copped plenty of flak,but thankfully he came good. Bolton playing the kids like that did them no good.


I’m inclined to agree Jim. When posters carry on about “playing the kids” I think they tend to forget the risks. I’m all for playing kids when they are ready, and in roles which won’t kill them, but I think Dow (and Fisher, O’Brien & SPS) were asked to do too much too soon under Bolts. Evidence suggests Teague agrees, given their significantly reduced midfield roles since he took over and the increased midfield workloads of veterans Murphy & E Curnow (I personally think we may have over corrected and have struggled to get the right balance).

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 Post subject: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:38 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I really hoped that in a shortened season we would have seen Stocker, Dow and Obrien given a real run at it. The old 'the kids will get tired' line in a long season wouldn't have been a factor and I thought it would be the perfect opportunity.

Didn't happen.

Loved the lack of 2nd year blues for Walsh, loved Weitering becoming a top 3 in the comp defender and just love Ed Curnow's heart and soul leave nothing out there every week.

I don't like the Co-captain thing. Do like docherty being back but I don't like the distributed responsibility model.

A bit of a meh season all round unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:53 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 4156
Humpers wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
DELISTINGS/TRADES
I suspect that the likes of Dow & SPS won’t attract the return to make trading them worthwhile.

Apparently we are interested in Jack Graham from Richmond. I wonder if we would consider Dow as part of this trade if the Tigers were interested (brothers playing together etc).

No to a straight swap, but the Tigers might be willing to add another player to the deal to help get their list numbers down. A two for one trade involving Graham would be a fair return for Dow. Is there another player on the outer at Richmond who might fill a need for us?

My preference is to not trade Dow at all because I still have a feeling he could be good for us. But we’d be mad not to consider an overs deal for any player.

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 Post subject: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:14 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 16136
Location: North of the border
Its amazing how your expectations shift.
I think that the main Pro this year is I actually considered tipping the Blues in every game. I actually thought if we got it together we could have beaten anyone.
I haven't felt that way for years.
The Con was we didn't beat enough teams and threw away to many games that we should have won.

I should be excited about the future but the disappointment of losing games we should have won is totally pissing me off.

We could go either way next year which worries the tripe out of me

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:20 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
aboynamedsue wrote:
jim wrote:
WOW wrote:
Pros

Weitering and Walsh
Setterfield has improved
Competitive
McKay looks promising, however needs a better midfield to fulfil potential

Cons

Lack of player development with our early draft picks and second tier midfielders such as Dow, O’Brien, SPS, Fisher & Cunningham. Could result in a failed rebuild if there is no significant improvement in 2021.

Murphy softness
Betts cooked and getting another contract
Lack of cohesive ball movement
Loser mentality still pervades this club
Cripps yet to sign an extension to contract


One of the issues is we had there was throwing them to the wolves with big jobs way too early when they should've been developing playing lesser roles. I don't think it did them any good whatsoever. Hence why you still need experience when rebuilding. Dow was terrific for the first season and a bit but his confidence got shot performing tasks he wasn't ready for. We id the same with Weitering, and he struggled big time, copped plenty of flak,but thankfully he came good. Bolton playing the kids like that did them no good.


I’m inclined to agree Jim. When posters carry on about “playing the kids” I think they tend to forget the risks. I’m all for playing kids when they are ready, and in roles which won’t kill them, but I think Dow (and Fisher, O’Brien & SPS) were asked to do too much too soon under Bolts. Evidence suggests Teague agrees, given their significantly reduced midfield roles since he took over and the increased midfield workloads of veterans Murphy & E Curnow (I personally think we may have over corrected and have struggled to get the right balance).


They were kids 19yo 20yo when thrown to the wolves.
Now they're 21yo 22yo 23 yo, they are not exactly kids anymore.

Cottrell, Honey, Philp at 19yo were given a taste, whereas Dow and OBrien were expected to play like seasoned mids. They should be ready by now to show improvement in mind body and soul...if they've got it.

I wouldn't be giving them the chop

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:24 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 14802
aboynamedsue wrote:
I know you need to give something good to get something good, but my instinct with Dow is to keep him. Dow is exactly the type of player we need if he can get his act together. I appreciate that’s a rather big “if”.

Different story if he wants out, which might be the case if he feels he needs a fresh start. My asking price would be steep though....

I’m a little more minded to trade SPS if a reasonable offer is out there. If he stays, he needs to graduate to a mid/forward role.


I agree. Keep Dow for another year. I'd also keep SPS for another year but the needs significant re-programming.
No more of these bullshit dinky 10 metre sideway kicks. He needs to hit targets 40 metres away. He has the talent but we've let him get away with the crap he's turning out since day 1.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:28 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
I know you need to give something good to get something good, but my instinct with Dow is to keep him. Dow is exactly the type of player we need if he can get his act together. I appreciate that’s a rather big “if”.

Different story if he wants out, which might be the case if he feels he needs a fresh start. My asking price would be steep though....

I’m a little more minded to trade SPS if a reasonable offer is out there. If he stays, he needs to graduate to a mid/forward role.


I agree. Keep Dow for another year. I'd also keep SPS for another year but the needs significant re-programming.
No more of these bullshit dinky 10 metre sideway kicks. He needs to hit targets 40 metres away. He has the talent but we've let him get away with the crap he's turning out since day 1.


Maybe the coaches have encouraged him to hit a target when he sees one because he's the only one capable.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:45 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 4156
bondiblue wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
jim wrote:
WOW wrote:
Pros

Weitering and Walsh
Setterfield has improved
Competitive
McKay looks promising, however needs a better midfield to fulfil potential

Cons

Lack of player development with our early draft picks and second tier midfielders such as Dow, O’Brien, SPS, Fisher & Cunningham. Could result in a failed rebuild if there is no significant improvement in 2021.

Murphy softness
Betts cooked and getting another contract
Lack of cohesive ball movement
Loser mentality still pervades this club
Cripps yet to sign an extension to contract


One of the issues is we had there was throwing them to the wolves with big jobs way too early when they should've been developing playing lesser roles. I don't think it did them any good whatsoever. Hence why you still need experience when rebuilding. Dow was terrific for the first season and a bit but his confidence got shot performing tasks he wasn't ready for. We id the same with Weitering, and he struggled big time, copped plenty of flak,but thankfully he came good. Bolton playing the kids like that did them no good.


I’m inclined to agree Jim. When posters carry on about “playing the kids” I think they tend to forget the risks. I’m all for playing kids when they are ready, and in roles which won’t kill them, but I think Dow (and Fisher, O’Brien & SPS) were asked to do too much too soon under Bolts. Evidence suggests Teague agrees, given their significantly reduced midfield roles since he took over and the increased midfield workloads of veterans Murphy & E Curnow (I personally think we may have over corrected and have struggled to get the right balance).


They were kids 19yo 20yo when thrown to the wolves.
Now they're 21yo 22yo 23 yo, they are not exactly kids anymore.

Cottrell, Honey, Philp at 19yo were given a taste, whereas Dow and OBrien were expected to play like seasoned mids. They should be ready by now to show improvement in mind body and soul...if they've got it.

I wouldn't be giving them the chop

I am very wary of trading Dow & O’Brien as I believe they have attributes we need. Trading them on the back of a bad year doesn’t sit well with me because I reckon they will be better next year when we’re (hopefully) back to COVID normal.

Dow looked an absolute ripper in his first year. His form tapered in his 2nd year and his 3rd year has been a disaster (early season injury, then no proper reserves to find form/fitness). If we can get him playing somewhere near what he’s capable of, he & Walsh should be a dynamic centre square combination for the next 8 years.

I tend to think we judge O’Brien harshly because of where he was taken in the draft. If he was a late pick (like Williamson) I think we’d be rapt with what we have. I know it sounds like I’m making excuses, but there were no wings in the scratch matches so it must have been hard for him to develop playing out of position in meaningless games.

Both need to get better, no doubt about that, but I would not trade either of them unless (1) they have already ‘checked out’ and requested a trade, AND (2) an attractive trade offer is on the table which nets us a quality midfielder.

I think (2) is very unlikely. Therefore we are better off keeping them and backing our coaches to extract improvement rather than making a speculative trade at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: 2020 Pros & Cons
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:06 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 5896
Great post ABNS I agree I have not given up on Dow and OBrien
I would not trade them unless we got a fantastic deal .
Both as you say have attributes that we don’t have in great supply .
Both were obviously disappointing this year but have in my view shown in previous seasons enough to suggest they have potential to be competent senior players .


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