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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:42 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Just from my observations I have outlined a few key deficiencies in our game play here...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36989&start=194

I have subsequently gone looking to see if the stats back these points up.

Sadly they DO.

1. No-one Presents / not running into space for each other

Carlton has the LOWEST UNCONTESTED POSSESSION COUNT in the competition!

Carlton also has the lowest % of total possessions as Uncontested.

Uncontested possessions are the key to consistent ball movement and absolutely require players
running into space for each other.
They are also critical in the two points following...


2. No overlapping run

Carlton is 2ND LOWEST FOR HANDBALLS

Just watch how the successful teams have a 'run-past' player frequently from marks or frees.
This helps bypass congested zones ahead and enhances the opportunity to find free players
- if ONLY they were running into space to accept (both the handball and the resulting kick)

The vast majority of handballs are of the 'under pressure' variety trying to clear stoppages and too often
to team mates also under pressure.
Again, very little positioning for wide receives even in these situations contributes to the abysmal
low uncontested possession count.


3. No leading into space by our forwards / Inefficient delivery into 50

Carlton is 4TH FOR INSIDE 50s but ONLY 9TH FOR MARKS INSIDE 50!

Carlton is 11TH for % of Inside 50s that RESULT IN MARKS.
only 20%

Carlton is 2ND WORST FOR GOALS FROM INSIDE 50s.
only 19.1%


We are 5th for Contested Possessions but 2ND WORST FOR TOTAL POSSESSIONS
due to the deficit in Uncontested Possession dragging the total no. down.

Our decent contested possession count and admirable forward 50 defensive work is the reason we
are no longer getting smashed in games I believe.

So, we've learned how not to lose badly but now have to learn how to win.

I believe the statistical analysis above reveals the problem and it's up to the coaching staff to implement
an appropriate 'game plan' to address it.

Screw sentiment, if Teague can't identify these factors and FIX them he should be dispensed with quickly.

I for one will not accept the mediocrity of mid-ladder as some kind of acceptable improvement on the disastrous Bolton years.

The STATS DON'T LIE.

The solution involves players RUNNING RUNNING RUNNING.
If they can't or won't - get rid of them.

What I saw live last week (v GWS) disgusted me.
Players just moping around instead of running into space.

It's not rocket surgery.

Richmond & Geelong show us how it's done almost every week and have been for years.


Anyhow, this thread for any worthwhile theory/analysis so welcome measured input.

(individual player performance etc. elsewhere please)

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Last edited by CC1961 on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:06 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Our gut two way running has been poor for years, it’s always been “optional” - and this culture has been passed on to our younger players who think it’s an acceptable way to play.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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AGRO wrote:
Our gut two way running has been poor for years, it’s always been “optional” - and this culture has been passed on to our younger players who think it’s an acceptable way to play.


Get Libba back and take them all to the sand dunes back of Rye

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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Thanks for that analysis CC1961.

I don't see enough run and breaking lines, expected as standard from the backline: attack starts from defense.

Have to have a think about the information. Interesting. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:00 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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bondiblue wrote:
Thanks for that analysis CC1961.

I don't see enough run and breaking lines, expected as standard from the backline: attack starts from defense.

Have to have a think about the information. Interesting. :thumbsup:


Only one in the backline who consistently tries to take the game on and break the lines is Willo.
Yes he makes mistakes and will continue to make them but at least he tries to do stuff.

Good analysis too CC1961. Interesting reading.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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rhino27 wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Thanks for that analysis CC1961.

I don't see enough run and breaking lines, expected as standard from the backline: attack starts from defense.

Have to have a think about the information. Interesting. :thumbsup:


Only one in the backline who consistently tries to take the game on and break the lines is Willo.
Yes he makes mistakes and will continue to make them but at least he tries to do stuff.

Good analysis too CC1961. Interesting reading.


That's what I like about Willo.

But given he's only got a left peg and nothing on the right, he has to make sure its a weapon not a liability when he runs.

IIRC Willo was fastsest or top 3 in the sprints in his Draft year, and that's a weapon I am willing to persevere.

I am hoping to see him improve his decision making and right side over the preseason.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:18 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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All valid points, although the most frustrating is point 2.
IMO - I'm not sure if it's instructions, but I dare say it is, we don't seem to want to utilise multiple handballs, but rather take the kick further up the field to a player. In most cases, the player we kick to, is also under extreme pressure. This has been a huge issue as on many occasions, I feel the additional handball is the better option and we have had numerous occasions were we have ignored the runner and instead kicked to a contest.
This would therefore also reflect in the players mindset and hence our no. would be down on overlap receives.
Anyway great input.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:20 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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Oops

lets stick to CC's analysis of the team.

To increase uncontested possessions we need players willing to run hard to space.

Its one thing to run and another to run and create space between yourself and your opponent.

That's why players like Philp are GOLD.

Smart players with heaps of skill, like Walsh are GOLDEST

There's a few on our list who can run. That's why we drafted OBrien.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:57 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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We have played well this season and really pleased with the teams overall progress with important players missing. Obviously someone other than cripps to consistently breakaway from congestion is a shortfall and connection from midfield to forwards which looks like work in progress but overall very pleased with this years progress.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:04 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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We haven't recovered from Jezza going to St Kilda

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:06 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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One quarter in almost every game we've played this year.

That's what's gone wrong.

It's 110% between the ears (work ethic).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:14 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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At the start of the year didn't most of us predict about this level and, if achieved, saw it as a steady improvement on 2019?

(having said that I appreciate the OP analysis!)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:26 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Forward line entries and structure is what kills us, no scoreboard pressure for effort, then rebound goals.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:30 pm 
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Bob Chitty

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1. We have consistently bombed the ball into the forward fifty. There is little to no connection between the midfield and forward fifty entries. We have limited decent forward delivery as a result.

2. Consistently played players out of their best position. Gibbons and SPS are prime examples here. Both should be playing more midfield.

3. Pushing defenders up, leading to multiple goals "over the back".

4. Kicking for goal accuracy, especially when we have momentum. This is compounded by the effect of point 1 above.

5. Playing players when unfit and/or out of form and/or at the expense of others. Mcgoven and Murphy are two examples.

I'm sure there is more, but they are the main 5 points that come to mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm 
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Ken Hands

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they have constantly talked about it ... but its correct

our forward 50 entries are a disgrace, fix that and we are different football club.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:17 am 
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Craig Bradley

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2020 COVID has been the biggest reason. Fewer training sessions mostly with just 8 at a time. Can't really get much continuity. It favors established sides with well entrenched game styles.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:17 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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The run past handball is great if you have someone down field to give it to.
Usually our forwards are too high to take advantage of a runner who breaks the lines.
It's also why we don't have forwards leading up at the ball carrier. Our forwards are usually running back from the HBF where they have tried to choke the opposition into a turnover. How often did we see Weitering have to stop instead of playing on tonight? How often does SPS have to go sideways instead of long down the middle? It's because we have no deep forwards. If you want to see what Harry could look like, watch Geelong's forward setup with Hawkins one out leading from the goalsquare. It's kid stuff.
Harry could do the same with one small forward at his feet or even a medium one.
He or someone else should be stationed deep in attack and lead out at the ball carrier. It would completely change out F50 entries, which at the moment are diabolical and why we need fifty of then to score 5 goals. One on one, there would be few FBs who could go with Harry so why not play like that? Open up the forward line with him and a small forward deep and the rest can go as far forward as they like. It would force the opposition to change their defensive structure. Harry or Levi one out in the square is a no brainer to me. He leads out and the mids run inside 50 with the footy and give it to him. The BP has to decide to go and make it a two on one contest or stay and mind the FP who stays deep. Or the FP leads out and if the BP follows him, the pass goes long to the small option out the back. To cater for the 6-6-6, the other four stand just inside the F50 and only go deeper if we get the clearance. The flankers start wide and run towards the goal posts at 45 degrees, leaving the spot in front of goals open for Harry to lead into. That gives the mids three passing options, depending on which side the clearance comes from.

I once devised a plan in a water polo game against a team we hadn't beaten for a few years. It was risky and depended on them playing a conventional umbrella attack and us forcing them to shoot from a bit further out by forming a four man diamond defence. We kept one player on half way, which in those days was as far as the goalie was allowed to pass the ball, and one further forward but not so the opposition goalie could man him up and risk the long shot from half way.
We had four goals on the board before they realised what was going on.

The moral of the story is that being predictable such as we are makes it easy for opposition teams to defend and attack. Opening up the forward options forces the opposition to change their defensive strategy or die.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:41 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
The run past handball is great if you have someone down field to give it to.
Usually our forwards are too high to take advantage of a runner who breaks the lines.
It's also why we don't have forwards leading up at the ball carrier. Our forwards are usually running back from the HBF where they have tried to choke the opposition into a turnover. How often did we see Weitering have to stop instead of playing on tonight? How often does SPS have to go sideways instead of long down the middle? It's because we have no deep forwards. If you want to see what Harry could look like, watch Geelong's forward setup with Hawkins one out leading from the goalsquare. It's kid stuff.
Harry could do the same with one small forward at his feet or even a medium one.
He or someone else should be stationed deep in attack and lead out at the ball carrier. It would completely change out F50 entries,
which at the moment are diabolical and why we need fifty of then to score 5 goals. One on one, there would be few FBs who could go with Harry so why not play like that? Open up the forward line with him and a small forward deep and the rest can go as far forward as they like. It would force the opposition to change their defensive structure. Harry or Levi one out in the square is a no brainer to me. He leads out and the mids run inside 50 with the footy and give it to him. The BP has to decide to go and make it a two on one contest or stay and mind the FP who stays deep. Or the FP leads out and if the BP follows him, the pass goes long to the small option out the back. To cater for the 6-6-6, the other four stand just inside the F50 and only go deeper if we get the clearance. The flankers start wide and run towards the goal posts at 45 degrees, leaving the spot in front of goals open for Harry to lead into. That gives the mids three passing options, depending on which side the clearance comes from.

I once devised a plan in a water polo game against a team we hadn't beaten for a few years. It was risky and depended on them playing a conventional umbrella attack and us forcing them to shoot from a bit further out by forming a four man diamond defence. We kept one player on half way, which in those days was as far as the goalie was allowed to pass the ball, and one further forward but not so the opposition goalie could man him up and risk the long shot from half way.
We had four goals on the board before they realised what was going on.

The moral of the story is that being predictable such as we are makes it easy for opposition teams to defend and attack. Opening up the forward options forces the opposition to change their defensive strategy or die.


I agree wholeheartedly my Gulf friend.

In this previous thread...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36989&hilit=degree&start=194

I wrote this...
Forwards competing for overhead marks just doesn't cut it.
How sick and tired do you get watching Hawkins, Lynch, Riewoldt, Kennedy, Darling running hard out on a lead for a straight forward chest mark??!!
Here's a recipe for success:
Casboult, McKay, McGovern all stand in the goal square at ALL times and when the ball appears over half way they ALL start running in Different directions - one straight forward, the others in opposite 45 degree directions.
THEN our maligned mids can drill it low onto the clearest looking chest at an achievable range of only 30-35 m out and Not on tight angles near the boundary.
yes- it means practice practice practice; but if they put in the effort and the coaching staff reinforce it we Win Every Game.
When those circumstances aren't created on other forward entries, then slam it over the top toward goal so an Eddie can run onto it and score.


Any decent combination of what we've both written would be 200% better than what we've got now.

Great Minds Think Alike, non?

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Last edited by CC1961 on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:56 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Just had to edit the "Goals from Inside 50s" after tonight's Sydney game.

We've just slipped from 4th worst (19.4%) to 2nd worst behind only Adelaide. (go figure)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:45 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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CC1961 wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
The run past handball is great if you have someone down field to give it to.
Usually our forwards are too high to take advantage of a runner who breaks the lines.
It's also why we don't have forwards leading up at the ball carrier. Our forwards are usually running back from the HBF where they have tried to choke the opposition into a turnover. How often did we see Weitering have to stop instead of playing on tonight? How often does SPS have to go sideways instead of long down the middle? It's because we have no deep forwards. If you want to see what Harry could look like, watch Geelong's forward setup with Hawkins one out leading from the goalsquare. It's kid stuff.
Harry could do the same with one small forward at his feet or even a medium one.
He or someone else should be stationed deep in attack and lead out at the ball carrier. It would completely change out F50 entries,
which at the moment are diabolical and why we need fifty of then to score 5 goals. One on one, there would be few FBs who could go with Harry so why not play like that? Open up the forward line with him and a small forward deep and the rest can go as far forward as they like. It would force the opposition to change their defensive structure. Harry or Levi one out in the square is a no brainer to me. He leads out and the mids run inside 50 with the footy and give it to him. The BP has to decide to go and make it a two on one contest or stay and mind the FP who stays deep. Or the FP leads out and if the BP follows him, the pass goes long to the small option out the back. To cater for the 6-6-6, the other four stand just inside the F50 and only go deeper if we get the clearance. The flankers start wide and run towards the goal posts at 45 degrees, leaving the spot in front of goals open for Harry to lead into. That gives the mids three passing options, depending on which side the clearance comes from.

I once devised a plan in a water polo game against a team we hadn't beaten for a few years. It was risky and depended on them playing a conventional umbrella attack and us forcing them to shoot from a bit further out by forming a four man diamond defence. We kept one player on half way, which in those days was as far as the goalie was allowed to pass the ball, and one further forward but not so the opposition goalie could man him up and risk the long shot from half way.
We had four goals on the board before they realised what was going on.

The moral of the story is that being predictable such as we are makes it easy for opposition teams to defend and attack. Opening up the forward options forces the opposition to change their defensive strategy or die.


I agree wholeheartedly my Gulf friend.

In this previous thread...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36989&hilit=degree&start=194

I wrote this...
Forwards competing for overhead marks just doesn't cut it.
How sick and tired do you get watching Hawkins, Lynch, Riewoldt, Kennedy, Darling running hard out on a lead for a straight forward chest mark??!!
Here's a recipe for success:
Casboult, McKay, McGovern all stand in the goal square at ALL times and when the ball appears over half way they ALL start running in Different directions - one straight forward, the others in opposite 45 degree directions.
THEN our maligned mids can drill it low onto the clearest looking chest at an achievable range of only 30-35 m out and Not on tight angles near the boundary.
yes- it means practice practice practice; but if they put in the effort and the coaching staff reinforce it we Win Every Game.
When those circumstances aren't created on other forward entries, then slam it over the top toward goal so an Eddie can run onto it and score.


Any decent combination of what we've both written would be 200% better than what we've got now.

Great Minds Think Alike, non?

Pair of freaking geniuses.

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