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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:02 pm
Posts: 390
bondiblue wrote:
I've waited for someone to say something about other players:

Thomas had 5 shots at goal by half time.
Guess who was on him?


Any Murphy admirers want to say something about Murph's game this week?
He did some things then seemed to die off and avoid the contest, but I might be a bit harsh.

No. Watch the replay.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:59 am
Posts: 8481
Coaches votes

7 Taylor Adams (COLL)
6 Jack Crisp (COLL)
6 Darcy Moore (COLL)
4 Brodie Grundy (COLL)
3 Scott Pendlebury (COLL)
2 Samuel Walsh (CARL)
2 Josh Thomas (COLL)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:12 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
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Location: Princess Park
I thought many of our senior players were terrible yesterday, even in the first half many of them fumbled and made mistakes. Plowman, Murphy, Martin, Cripps, Gibbons & Casboult probably played their worst game of the year.

I know I bang on about the lack of depth in our midfield but it really showed up yesterday, Curnow, Setterfield and Walsh were good but then it dropped away. Would have liked to see Fisher and Gibbons get some more time in the midfield. To think they had 2 gun midfield running types in Sidebottom and Trelor out.

We started the third qtr well however our entry to the forwards was putrid, I felt that Casboult was playing for free kicks (no doubt clubs are paying him more attention of the ball, just enough to throw him off the contest - back to being our second ruck and drop Pittonet) and Gibbons was trying to do to much. Towards the end of the third qtr the writing was on the wall.

You could sense that they were going to run us off our feet. Daicos has been a massive improver for them, just a smart footballer.

I want to see how some of these senior types respond this week - I'm sure they know they put in a bad one.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:15 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:54 pm
Posts: 2251
Braithy wrote:
not sure of the exact stats this season... but it feels like we've been smashed in 3rd & 4th qtrs all year long. typically you look at coaching. being out manoeuvred in the box and not responding to the adjustments the other coach is making after HT. it's a theme.

our team is so plodding. plowman, casboult, pitto, harry, tdk, weiters, jones ... the mix there is too top heavy.

i've always loved casboult ... but he needs to make way for tdk, who is going to be a star. he'll have a better career and do more for us than all the promise and potential kruez offered.

plowman needs to not play a grade for us again. he's a little too pea-hearted, a little too slow, a little not a good kick, a little reads the play poorly and can't man up.


poulson was pretty good, showed some composure, some pace and some efficiency. he needs to play down back in that pocket in the aaron joseph role. eddie is still a gun. tdk will be a star. cripps looks cooked ... and that docherty error really boiled my piss. when your leader shits the bed and gifts them their first goal in that manner.

what hope is there?



6 and 6 and one draw for 3rd quarters
9 and 4 for fourth quarters
8 and 5 for 2nd quarters
7 and 6 for 1st quarters

so 58% of quarters won for a 46% win rate so far this season. Port who are on top have won 61% of their quarters. Same with Geelong who sit second.
Probably illustrates that when we win quarters we're not putting enough scoreboard pressure on and when momentum shifts the opposition do the opposite to us


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:17 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Posts: 3402
Blue4ever wrote:
I thought many of our senior players were terrible yesterday, even in the first half many of them fumbled and made mistakes. Plowman, Murphy, Martin, Cripps, Gibbons & Casboult probably played their worst game of the year.

I know I bang on about the lack of depth in our midfield but it really showed up yesterday, Curnow, Setterfield and Walsh were good but then it dropped away. Would have liked to see Fisher and Gibbons get some more time in the midfield. To think they had 2 gun midfield running types in Sidebottom and Trelor out.

We started the third qtr well however our entry to the forwards was putrid, I felt that Casboult was playing for free kicks (no doubt clubs are paying him more attention of the ball, just enough to throw him off the contest - back to being our second ruck and drop Pittonet) and Gibbons was trying to do to much. Towards the end of the third qtr the writing was on the wall.

You could sense that they were going to run us off our feet. Daicos has been a massive improver for them, just a smart footballer.

I want to see how some of these senior types respond this week - I'm sure they know they put in a bad one.


Thats pretty good B4 particularly Curnow,Setterfield and Walsh............gotta try some kids from the magi's who are genuine onballers.How is that kid Ramsey travelling ? looks like a genuine onballer to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:22 pm 
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John James
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Just... disappointed


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:34 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 14802
keogh wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Martin has been in the system for a while
His work rate was average at the GC
That was the knock on him
Again compare him to Other players who play a similar rolein the top teams
You can argue that he cost us the game against Port because he put in an 80% effort at a crucial stage
He doesn’t give 100% at every contest
Overrated KK


Martin is NOT the problem. He’s one of the few players who plays with consistent heart and desire


That’s crap


Nah sorry, but it's your opinion of him that is crap. Martin would be easily top 5 in our B&F.

What a disappointment that was. Once again, our forward line let us down. Playing Pittonet down there was a disaster. He just ran his opponent into Levi's space and allowed him to come over the back and spoil. Look at our marks for the day. Pittonet 0, Harry equal second lowest with 2.
People can bag Levi all they want but he leads up at the ball hard and presents options. The problem is we kicked it on his head every time instead of putting it out in front of him. Harry meanwhile runs into the pocket for the easy ball instead of working his opponent over with workrate. He's 204cm and ask yourself, when did you last see him take a mark in a pack? And to put the cherry on top he runs into Docherty space when Doc spoiled the ball inside 50 instead of shepherding and giving him room. The most selfish footballer I've seen in a Blues jumper for a long time.

43 inside 50's for 13 scoring shots. Even if the ball is kicked along the ground to no ones advantage, you should expect your forwards to win 50% of the contests. We've had a shot from less than 33% of our entries. Shit structure and no teamwork.

Dow was quietish but I'd love to know his role. Did Cripps say block for me or was he afforded the opportunity to go for the ball. Whatever the case, he had the highest amount of centre clearances for us with 2. One time he was facing goal and he handballed back to Cripps. WTF was that? It's the same as Cripps calling for the ball when Martin is having a shot from 40 metres. It's not about feathering the stats column Crippa, it's about winning the @#$%&! game! Give me Martin kicking for goal every time over Cripps. He should have told Martin to steady and to take the shot.

The backline? Plowman had a down day but the delivery to their forwards was chalk and cheese to ours. Out in front, not waiting for it to perch on their heads. 10 goals from 40 entries is fair. Our backs had a donnish day but as a unit, they certainly weren't disgraced. We had significant periods of domination and failed to capitalise. That's the ball game.

We cant play Pittonet and TDK rotating forward. TDK can play there. (His block was Eddie was perfect forward play. Ask yourself when you last say Harry do that) but Pitto has to rest on the bench.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:44 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1201
Beijing Blue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
I've waited for someone to say something about other players:

Thomas had 5 shots at goal by half time.
Guess who was on him?


Any Murphy admirers want to say something about Murph's game this week?
He did some things then seemed to die off and avoid the contest, but I might be a bit harsh.

No. Watch the replay.


I definitely saw 2 instances where he held back instead going for the ball. Those tentative moments don't look good ....... they aren't good.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:50 am
Posts: 1896
Location: Brisbane
I have just joined this forum having gone looking for a place to express my utter disgust and disappointment over what happened in the last half yesterday.

So I am sorry this first post is so lengthy.

I am from a strong Carlton family: my Dad has been to EVERY single Grand Final since 1947; he took me to my first in '72 and I then went to the next 30. I have a sister and brother who still haven't missed one since '72.
In '95 at the Radisson President Hotel, we had the Premiership Cup sitting on the table next to us and drank champagne from it all night long.
I stupidly said that night after we lost only 2 games for the year and did the double 'sweet sixteen' thing (wins in row to flag, total flags): "I could die happy now"
Oh, how I wish I could take those words back now! 25 years of misery ever since and counting.

THIS year it was all meant to change.
Better coach, more high draft picks, Eddie back etc.

Here's where we are Really at:
****There have only been 7 WORSE 2nd half efforts by an existing club in the last 50 Years.****

(Ironically, the last one was Collingwood in Rd 2 This year - 3 pts v Richmond but they still managed a draw).

There have only been 23 worse 2nd half scores in total in the last Hundred Years
Our previous worse (3 pts) was way back in 1965.

Here is the IRONY of this season:
Until this round Carlton had Won 29 quarters this year - only 2 less than Brisbane, Geelong, Port who have played one more game than us. We could have passed them all yesterday, remember - we had won the previous 7 quarters straight!
Carlton had Lost the LEAST quarters this year - only 18
We were even equal leader in 4th quarters won!

So what is going wrong to spite that seemingly enviable record?
Utterly dropping the ball in the 'Premiership Quarter - barely averaging one goal.
What is going on at half time?!
Whatever it is, it Has to Stop.

SO WHAT IS GOING WRONG?

It is really quite simple and the coaching staff should be made aware of it.

1. Players stop running to position for each other
- they literally just stand on the spot or do a mild jog to nowhere, easily followed by their direct opponents
The result is constant kicks to contested positions and yesterday several embarrassing one-on-twos
The key weaknesses are in
a) kicking from half back, you look ahead and wonder who the hell are they going to kick it to as no-one is presenting
and
b) further downfield the complete lack of movement by 'targets' in the forward 50.
Watch Geelong for a decade or Richmond in recent years: they Never STOP presenting a target, constantly giving each kicker multiple options at all times.

2. Ineffective and Dangerous handballs of 1-2 metres to teammates under Immediate tackle danger.
Who doesn't remember the sheer joy of watching Greg 'Diesel' Williams?
His pack-clearing handballs to teammates in space set up a countless stream of Carlton scoring opportunities.
As an example, yesterday Weitering's pissy 1 metre handball to Docherty in the Collingwood forward line early in the last, had him immediately under the pump and the resulting goal started to turn the game for the worse
(Plowman was in the clear 5m away at the time)
The Worst offender in the current team is Cripps. (more on him below)

3. Goalkicking
In a season where % will determine who gets into the 8 and who doesn't Carlton has squandered percentage boosting opportunities against Essendon* (7.10), North (9.10), Fremantle (5.10), GC (7.18) and a win (and valuable 4 points) v. Melbourne (7.11)
My sister's own pertinent observation is that our forwards would benefit from practising their goal kicking at training with someone STANDING ON THE MARK to simulate real game conditions, just watch the replays to see how often we mishandle this in real time.

4. Forward Entries
covered above in point 1. but additionally another basic tactic that is a hallmark of Geelong & Richmond is Goal-side kicking: if the forwards haven't run into space as they Should, kick it over their heads to open up ground level scoring opportunities as the ball heads towards where it belongs - the Carlton goal-mouth!
Yesterday in the 4th-5th minutes of the 3rd quarter when generating an unassailable lead was critical Gibbons, Setterfield & Curnow all tried to "pop it up" into crowded ccontests about 25m out that were never going to be successful instead of going over the top toward goal and giving us a fighting chance to score.
Result? Another Collingwood rebound.

5. Cripps
when he's not handballing a miserable 1-2 metres to teammates in immediate tackle danger, he's missing them all together both by hand and foot.
yesterday's "disposal efficiency" was a far too common 63% - 33 other players on the ground delivered the ball with more accuracy than our so called 'lead by example captain'.
Remember what a "Captain's Goal" was all about?
When the Nichols and Fitzpatricks and Kernahans knew Exactly what was needed when it counted in front of goal?
Not this bloke.
For all of the above he needs to be dropped for a week or two to teach him that great lesson of humility that particularly those prematurely anointed as 'champions' but more importantly also having a leadership role need to work much harder on the basics of the game and fix their repetitive errors.
Chris Judd was no different when he got to Carlton in all of the same skill errors that Cripps displays - he was possibly even more guilty of the short useless handballs and ineffective kicking.
Their disposal efficiency is on a par with each other - in the 60s
Getting lots of possessions and stacking up the stats might look good but it's what you DO WITH THE BALL that matters MORE!

We DO have the personnel.
We DO have the skills.
We DO occasionally get some of the above things right enough to win those 29 quarters.
However, I am very concerned that it only happens due to some individual inspiration on occasion
rather than as part of a consistent 'coached' strategy.

Remember Brett Ratten shown addressing his troops the week before they played us?
His mantra was simple but critical: "run Run RUN!!!!"
And they did and they won. (and for the most part they've done it well this year).

As we all know, it's a 4-quarter game; but Carlton seems to ignore or forget all of the above when the siren starts the Premiership Quarter.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:02 pm
Posts: 390
CC1961 wrote:
I have just joined this forum having gone looking for a place to express my utter disgust and disappointment over what happened in the last half yesterday.

So I am sorry this first post is so lengthy.

I am from a strong Carlton family: my Dad has been to EVERY single Grand Final since 1947; he took me to my first in '72 and I then went to the next 30. I have a sister and brother who still haven't missed one since '72.
In '95 at the Radisson President Hotel, we had the Premiership Cup sitting on the table next to us and drank champagne from it all night long.
I stupidly said that night after we lost only 2 games for the year and did the double 'sweet sixteen' thing (wins in row to flag, total flags): "I could die happy now"
Oh, how I wish I could take those words back now! 25 years of misery ever since and counting.

THIS year it was all meant to change.
Better coach, more high draft picks, Eddie back etc.

Here's where we are Really at:
****There have only been 7 WORSE 2nd half efforts by an existing club in the last 50 Years.****

(Ironically, the last one was Collingwood in Rd 2 This year - 3 pts v Richmond but they still managed a draw).

There have only been 23 worse 2nd half scores in total in the last Hundred Years
Our previous worse (3 pts) was way back in 1965.

Here is the IRONY of this season:
Until this round Carlton had Won 29 quarters this year - only 2 less than Brisbane, Geelong, Port who have played one more game than us. We could have passed them all yesterday, remember - we had won the previous 7 quarters straight!
Carlton had Lost the LEAST quarters this year - only 18
We were even equal leader in 4th quarters won!

So what is going wrong to spite that seemingly enviable record?
Utterly dropping the ball in the 'Premiership Quarter - barely averaging one goal.
What is going on at half time?!
Whatever it is, it Has to Stop.

SO WHAT IS GOING WRONG?

It is really quite simple and the coaching staff should be made aware of it.

1. Players stop running to position for each other
- they literally just stand on the spot or do a mild jog to nowhere, easily followed by their direct opponents
The result is constant kicks to contested positions and yesterday several embarrassing one-on-twos
The key weaknesses are in
a) kicking from half back, you look ahead and wonder who the hell are they going to kick it to as no-one is presenting
and
b) further downfield the complete lack of movement by 'targets' in the forward 50.
Watch Geelong for a decade or Richmond in recent years: they Never STOP presenting a target, constantly giving each kicker multiple options at all times.

2. Ineffective and Dangerous handballs of 1-2 metres to teammates under Immediate tackle danger.
Who doesn't remember the sheer joy of watching Greg 'Diesel' Williams?
His pack-clearing handballs to teammates in space set up a countless stream of Carlton scoring opportunities.
As an example, yesterday Weitering's pissy 1 metre handball to Docherty in the Collingwood forward line early in the last, had him immediately under the pump and the resulting goal started to turn the game for the worse
(Plowman was in the clear 5m away at the time)
The Worst offender in the current team is Cripps. (more on him below)

3. Goalkicking
In a season where % will determine who gets into the 8 and who doesn't Carlton has squandered percentage boosting opportunities against Essendon** (7.10), North (9.10), Fremantle (5.10), GC (7.18) and a win (and valuable 4 points) v. Melbourne (7.11)
My sister's own pertinent observation is that our forwards would benefit from practising their goal kicking at training with someone STANDING ON THE MARK to simulate real game conditions, just watch the replays to see how often we mishandle this in real time.

4. Forward Entries
covered above in point 1. but additionally another basic tactic that is a hallmark of Geelong & Richmond is Goal-side kicking: if the forwards haven't run into space as they Should, kick it over their heads to open up ground level scoring opportunities as the ball heads towards where it belongs - the Carlton goal-mouth!
Yesterday in the 4th-5th minutes of the 3rd quarter when generating an unassailable lead was critical Gibbons, Setterfield & Curnow all tried to "pop it up" into crowded ccontests about 25m out that were never going to be successful instead of going over the top toward goal and giving us a fighting chance to score.
Result? Another Collingwood rebound.

5. Cripps
when he's not handballing a miserable 1-2 metres to teammates in immediate tackle danger, he's missing them all together both by hand and foot.
yesterday's "disposal efficiency" was a far too common 63% - 33 other players on the ground delivered the ball with more accuracy than our so called 'lead by example captain'.
Remember what a "Captain's Goal" was all about?
When the Nichols and Fitzpatricks and Kernahans knew Exactly what was needed when it counted in front of goal?
Not this bloke.
For all of the above he needs to be dropped for a week or two to teach him that great lesson of humility that particularly those prematurely anointed as 'champions' but more importantly also having a leadership role need to work much harder on the basics of the game and fix their repetitive errors.
Chris Judd was no different when he got to Carlton in all of the same skill errors that Cripps displays - he was possibly even more guilty of the short useless handballs and ineffective kicking.
Their disposal efficiency is on a par with each other - in the 60s
Getting lots of possessions and stacking up the stats might look good but it's what you DO WITH THE BALL that matters MORE!

We DO have the personnel.
We DO have the skills.
We DO occasionally get some of the above things right enough to win those 29 quarters.
However, I am very concerned that it only happens due to some individual inspiration on occasion
rather than as part of a consistent 'coached' strategy.

Remember Brett Ratten shown addressing his troops the week before they played us?
His mantra was simple but critical: "run Run RUN!!!!"
And they did and they won. (and for the most part they've done it well this year).

As we all know, it's a 4-quarter game; but Carlton seems to ignore or forget all of the above when the siren starts the Premiership Quarter.


I totally agree. Strategy and planning. Failure to plan is planning to fail.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:29 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 2057
Location: Princess Park
Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Martin has been in the system for a while
His work rate was average at the GC
That was the knock on him
Again compare him to Other players who play a similar rolein the top teams
You can argue that he cost us the game against Port because he put in an 80% effort at a crucial stage
He doesn’t give 100% at every contest
Overrated KK


Martin is NOT the problem. He’s one of the few players who plays with consistent heart and desire


That’s crap


Nah sorry, but it's your opinion of him that is crap. Martin would be easily top 5 in our B&F.

What a disappointment that was. Once again, our forward line let us down. Playing Pittonet down there was a disaster. He just ran his opponent into Levi's space and allowed him to come over the back and spoil. Look at our marks for the day. Pittonet 0, Harry equal second lowest with 2.
People can bag Levi all they want but he leads up at the ball hard and presents options. The problem is we kicked it on his head every time instead of putting it out in front of him. Harry meanwhile runs into the pocket for the easy ball instead of working his opponent over with workrate. He's 204cm and ask yourself, when did you last see him take a mark in a pack? And to put the cherry on top he runs into Docherty space when Doc spoiled the ball inside 50 instead of shepherding and giving him room. The most selfish footballer I've seen in a Blues jumper for a long time.

43 inside 50's for 13 scoring shots. Even if the ball is kicked along the ground to no ones advantage, you should expect your forwards to win 50% of the contests. We've had a shot from less than 33% of our entries. Shit structure and no teamwork.

Dow was quietish but I'd love to know his role. Did Cripps say block for me or was he afforded the opportunity to go for the ball. Whatever the case, he had the highest amount of centre clearances for us with 2. One time he was facing goal and he handballed back to Cripps. WTF was that? It's the same as Cripps calling for the ball when Martin is having a shot from 40 metres. It's not about feathering the stats column Crippa, it's about winning the @#$%&! game! Give me Martin kicking for goal every time over Cripps. He should have told Martin to steady and to take the shot.

The backline? Plowman had a down day but the delivery to their forwards was chalk and cheese to ours. Out in front, not waiting for it to perch on their heads. 10 goals from 40 entries is fair. Our backs had a donnish day but as a unit, they certainly weren't disgraced. We had significant periods of domination and failed to capitalise. That's the ball game.

We cant play Pittonet and TDK rotating forward. TDK can play there. (His block was Eddie was perfect forward play. Ask yourself when you last say Harry do that) but Pitto has to rest on the bench.


Hey BV, enjoy your posts but I thought our downfall yesterday was more to do with our midfield and the type of forward entry.

Agree Pittonet, Harry and Casboult in the forward line together was crazy, Levi was hitting the packs but I do think clubs are now paying him more attention in a marking contest. He's a beast when going for a mark but clubs are just doing enough to put him out of the marking contest hence our delivery has to be better. Would like to see him pinch hit as our second ruck and replace Pittonet with another runner.

I wonder if Cripps actually called for the ball from Martin - if he did call for the ball he was just being selfish. Either way it was terrible football.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 2796
Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Martin has been in the system for a while
His work rate was average at the GC
That was the knock on him
Again compare him to Other players who play a similar rolein the top teams
You can argue that he cost us the game against Port because he put in an 80% effort at a crucial stage
He doesn’t give 100% at every contest
Overrated KK


Martin is NOT the problem. He’s one of the few players who plays with consistent heart and desire


That’s crap


Nah sorry, but it's your opinion of him that is crap. Martin would be easily top 5 in our B&F.

What a disappointment that was. Once again, our forward line let us down. Playing Pittonet down there was a disaster. He just ran his opponent into Levi's space and allowed him to come over the back and spoil. Look at our marks for the day. Pittonet 0, Harry equal second lowest with 2.
People can bag Levi all they want but he leads up at the ball hard and presents options. The problem is we kicked it on his head every time instead of putting it out in front of him. Harry meanwhile runs into the pocket for the easy ball instead of working his opponent over with workrate. He's 204cm and ask yourself, when did you last see him take a mark in a pack? And to put the cherry on top he runs into Docherty space when Doc spoiled the ball inside 50 instead of shepherding and giving him room. The most selfish footballer I've seen in a Blues jumper for a long time.

43 inside 50's for 13 scoring shots. Even if the ball is kicked along the ground to no ones advantage, you should expect your forwards to win 50% of the contests. We've had a shot from less than 33% of our entries. Shit structure and no teamwork.

Dow was quietish but I'd love to know his role. Did Cripps say block for me or was he afforded the opportunity to go for the ball. Whatever the case, he had the highest amount of centre clearances for us with 2. One time he was facing goal and he handballed back to Cripps. WTF was that? It's the same as Cripps calling for the ball when Martin is having a shot from 40 metres. It's not about feathering the stats column Crippa, it's about winning the @#$%&! game! Give me Martin kicking for goal every time over Cripps. He should have told Martin to steady and to take the shot.

The backline? Plowman had a down day but the delivery to their forwards was chalk and cheese to ours. Out in front, not waiting for it to perch on their heads. 10 goals from 40 entries is fair. Our backs had a donnish day but as a unit, they certainly weren't disgraced. We had significant periods of domination and failed to capitalise. That's the ball game.

We cant play Pittonet and TDK rotating forward. TDK can play there. (His block was Eddie was perfect forward play. Ask yourself when you last say Harry do that) but Pitto has to rest on the bench.


Thankyou
Nuff said...Plowman is the low hanging fruit every frikken week. Didn't have a great game but his lazy mids gave him no cover, unlike their gut running mids

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:50 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
CC1961 wrote:
I have just joined this forum having gone looking for a place to express my utter disgust and disappointment over what happened in the last half yesterday.

So I am sorry this first post is so lengthy.

I am from a strong Carlton family: my Dad has been to EVERY single Grand Final since 1947; he took me to my first in '72 and I then went to the next 30. I have a sister and brother who still haven't missed one since '72.
In '95 at the Radisson President Hotel, we had the Premiership Cup sitting on the table next to us and drank champagne from it all night long.
I stupidly said that night after we lost only 2 games for the year and did the double 'sweet sixteen' thing (wins in row to flag, total flags): "I could die happy now"
Oh, how I wish I could take those words back now! 25 years of misery ever since and counting.

THIS year it was all meant to change.
Better coach, more high draft picks, Eddie back etc.

Here's where we are Really at:
****There have only been 7 WORSE 2nd half efforts by an existing club in the last 50 Years.****

(Ironically, the last one was Collingwood in Rd 2 This year - 3 pts v Richmond but they still managed a draw).

There have only been 23 worse 2nd half scores in total in the last Hundred Years
Our previous worse (3 pts) was way back in 1965.

Here is the IRONY of this season:
Until this round Carlton had Won 29 quarters this year - only 2 less than Brisbane, Geelong, Port who have played one more game than us. We could have passed them all yesterday, remember - we had won the previous 7 quarters straight!
Carlton had Lost the LEAST quarters this year - only 18
We were even equal leader in 4th quarters won!

So what is going wrong to spite that seemingly enviable record?
Utterly dropping the ball in the 'Premiership Quarter - barely averaging one goal.
What is going on at half time?!
Whatever it is, it Has to Stop.

SO WHAT IS GOING WRONG?

It is really quite simple and the coaching staff should be made aware of it.

1. Players stop running to position for each other
- they literally just stand on the spot or do a mild jog to nowhere, easily followed by their direct opponents
The result is constant kicks to contested positions and yesterday several embarrassing one-on-twos
The key weaknesses are in
a) kicking from half back, you look ahead and wonder who the hell are they going to kick it to as no-one is presenting
and
b) further downfield the complete lack of movement by 'targets' in the forward 50.
Watch Geelong for a decade or Richmond in recent years: they Never STOP presenting a target, constantly giving each kicker multiple options at all times.

2. Ineffective and Dangerous handballs of 1-2 metres to teammates under Immediate tackle danger.
Who doesn't remember the sheer joy of watching Greg 'Diesel' Williams?
His pack-clearing handballs to teammates in space set up a countless stream of Carlton scoring opportunities.
As an example, yesterday Weitering's pissy 1 metre handball to Docherty in the Collingwood forward line early in the last, had him immediately under the pump and the resulting goal started to turn the game for the worse
(Plowman was in the clear 5m away at the time)
The Worst offender in the current team is Cripps. (more on him below)

3. Goalkicking
In a season where % will determine who gets into the 8 and who doesn't Carlton has squandered percentage boosting opportunities against Essendon** (7.10), North (9.10), Fremantle (5.10), GC (7.18) and a win (and valuable 4 points) v. Melbourne (7.11)
My sister's own pertinent observation is that our forwards would benefit from practising their goal kicking at training with someone STANDING ON THE MARK to simulate real game conditions, just watch the replays to see how often we mishandle this in real time.

4. Forward Entries
covered above in point 1. but additionally another basic tactic that is a hallmark of Geelong & Richmond is Goal-side kicking: if the forwards haven't run into space as they Should, kick it over their heads to open up ground level scoring opportunities as the ball heads towards where it belongs - the Carlton goal-mouth!
Yesterday in the 4th-5th minutes of the 3rd quarter when generating an unassailable lead was critical Gibbons, Setterfield & Curnow all tried to "pop it up" into crowded ccontests about 25m out that were never going to be successful instead of going over the top toward goal and giving us a fighting chance to score.
Result? Another Collingwood rebound.

5. Cripps
when he's not handballing a miserable 1-2 metres to teammates in immediate tackle danger, he's missing them all together both by hand and foot.
yesterday's "disposal efficiency" was a far too common 63% - 33 other players on the ground delivered the ball with more accuracy than our so called 'lead by example captain'.
Remember what a "Captain's Goal" was all about?
When the Nichols and Fitzpatricks and Kernahans knew Exactly what was needed when it counted in front of goal?
Not this bloke.
For all of the above he needs to be dropped for a week or two to teach him that great lesson of humility that particularly those prematurely anointed as 'champions' but more importantly also having a leadership role need to work much harder on the basics of the game and fix their repetitive errors.
Chris Judd was no different when he got to Carlton in all of the same skill errors that Cripps displays - he was possibly even more guilty of the short useless handballs and ineffective kicking.
Their disposal efficiency is on a par with each other - in the 60s
Getting lots of possessions and stacking up the stats might look good but it's what you DO WITH THE BALL that matters MORE!

We DO have the personnel.
We DO have the skills.
We DO occasionally get some of the above things right enough to win those 29 quarters.
However, I am very concerned that it only happens due to some individual inspiration on occasion
rather than as part of a consistent 'coached' strategy.

Remember Brett Ratten shown addressing his troops the week before they played us?
His mantra was simple but critical: "run Run RUN!!!!"
And they did and they won. (and for the most part they've done it well this year).

As we all know, it's a 4-quarter game; but Carlton seems to ignore or forget all of the above when the siren starts the Premiership Quarter.


Welcome aboard cc1961.

Good observation.

Never looked at the particular quarter over the season to see a pattern.

Its a pattern allright.

Have a try and starting a thread you want to discuss.
You have a bag full in this. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:54 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 14041
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Martin has been in the system for a while
His work rate was average at the GC
That was the knock on him
Again compare him to Other players who play a similar rolein the top teams
You can argue that he cost us the game against Port because he put in an 80% effort at a crucial stage
He doesn’t give 100% at every contest
Overrated KK


Martin is NOT the problem. He’s one of the few players who plays with consistent heart and desire


That’s crap


Nah sorry, but it's your opinion of him that is crap. Martin would be easily top 5 in our B&F.

What a disappointment that was. Once again, our forward line let us down. Playing Pittonet down there was a disaster. He just ran his opponent into Levi's space and allowed him to come over the back and spoil. Look at our marks for the day. Pittonet 0, Harry equal second lowest with 2.
People can bag Levi all they want but he leads up at the ball hard and presents options. The problem is we kicked it on his head every time instead of putting it out in front of him. Harry meanwhile runs into the pocket for the easy ball instead of working his opponent over with workrate. He's 204cm and ask yourself, when did you last see him take a mark in a pack? And to put the cherry on top he runs into Docherty space when Doc spoiled the ball inside 50 instead of shepherding and giving him room. The most selfish footballer I've seen in a Blues jumper for a long time.

43 inside 50's for 13 scoring shots. Even if the ball is kicked along the ground to no ones advantage, you should expect your forwards to win 50% of the contests. We've had a shot from less than 33% of our entries. Shit structure and no teamwork.

Dow was quietish but I'd love to know his role. Did Cripps say block for me or was he afforded the opportunity to go for the ball. Whatever the case, he had the highest amount of centre clearances for us with 2. One time he was facing goal and he handballed back to Cripps. WTF was that? It's the same as Cripps calling for the ball when Martin is having a shot from 40 metres. It's not about feathering the stats column Crippa, it's about winning the @#$%&! game! Give me Martin kicking for goal every time over Cripps. He should have told Martin to steady and to take the shot.

The backline? Plowman had a down day but the delivery to their forwards was chalk and cheese to ours. Out in front, not waiting for it to perch on their heads. 10 goals from 40 entries is fair. Our backs had a donnish day but as a unit, they certainly weren't disgraced. We had significant periods of domination and failed to capitalise. That's the ball game.

We cant play Pittonet and TDK rotating forward. TDK can play there. (His block was Eddie was perfect forward play. Ask yourself when you last say Harry do that) but Pitto has to rest on the bench.


Nice one BV.

There's some basics all players should be applying to their individual game.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:24 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4752
If we all looked back over the posts we have written over the years we would be embarrassed by some of them
Myself included
But there were many of you buoyed by the Saints win last year.

A bit premature
At the end of the year where are we on the ladder is where we are at in terms of the other 17 teams
No matter what people’s opinions are on whatever the ladder position doesn’t lie.
Particularly this year with home ground advantage often a zero factor and no playing 5 teams twice.

Yesterday’s loss didn’t surprise me at all
Imo
We overate players
We hand over generous contracts to some
Many players are 2 one dimensional ( Docherty is a great example)
We were pathetic in the last 30 minutes because we are simply not good enough
Recruiting and List Management
That’s my opinion


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:14 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 6635
club29 wrote:
Stefchook wrote:
club29 wrote:
We didn't get value for our elite pressure on the scoreboard. The forward press did not bear fruit as it should. Well played to Collingwood for absorbing the onslaught and then cashing in once we were cooked. The extra ruck is not worth it if we are trying the relentless pressure game.


While I agree with your point, it's interesting that Collingwood played an extra ruckman as well (who didn't do much).


We had an extra tall player. H, Caz, Pitt and TDK is too many and over the course of the day left us short of run / energy pressure wise.


We could certainly have played one less. But Collingwood did play Grundy, Cox and Cameron. And Harry is more mobile than Mihocek. So I don't think it was the sheer numbers/balance, but what their talls contributed compared to ours. And how hard the rest of their team ran/worked compared to ours.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:18 am
Posts: 197
Plowman is a liability look at it this way would he make any side that are currently in the top 8 I would not think so same goes for Williamson Simpson Polson our backline is just like our mids we don’t bat deep enough


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:49 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:17 am
Posts: 13313
Location: threeohfivethree
keogh wrote:
If we all looked back over the posts we have written over the years we would be embarrassed by some of them
Myself included
But there were many of you buoyed by the Saints win last year.

A bit premature
At the end of the year where are we on the ladder is where we are at in terms of the other 17 teams
No matter what people’s opinions are on whatever the ladder position doesn’t lie.
Particularly this year with home ground advantage often a zero factor and no playing 5 teams twice.

Yesterday’s loss didn’t surprise me at all
Imo
We overate players
We hand over generous contracts to some
Many players are 2 one dimensional ( Docherty is a great example)
We were pathetic in the last 30 minutes because we are simply not good enough
Recruiting and List Management
That’s my opinion


This time last year we'd won two games.

This year we've won six.

So last year we were bottom end at this point and this year we're mid table.

What exactly is your point?

Did you think we'd go from 18th to first in a year?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:39 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5189
Location: Melbourne
GWS wrote:
keogh wrote:
If we all looked back over the posts we have written over the years we would be embarrassed by some of them
Myself included
But there were many of you buoyed by the Saints win last year.

A bit premature
At the end of the year where are we on the ladder is where we are at in terms of the other 17 teams
No matter what people’s opinions are on whatever the ladder position doesn’t lie.
Particularly this year with home ground advantage often a zero factor and no playing 5 teams twice.

Yesterday’s loss didn’t surprise me at all
Imo
We overate players
We hand over generous contracts to some
Many players are 2 one dimensional ( Docherty is a great example)
We were pathetic in the last 30 minutes because we are simply not good enough
Recruiting and List Management
That’s my opinion


This time last year we'd won two games.

This year we've won six.

So last year we were bottom end at this point and this year we're mid table.

What exactly is your point?

Did you think we'd go from 18th to first in a year?


I was thinking the same thing. What are people expecting here?

I was very disappointed in the loss but I think we were just beaten by a better side who wore us down.

Some people are using the loss as an excuse to get on their hobby horse and demand the removal of players they don’t like, when there aren’t viable options.

If it was up to some we’d drop/retire many of Simpson, Murphy, casboult, pittonet, Plowman etc and replace them with who exactly?

I don’t really get it, it’s not like we have these amazing players outside of the 22 who should be playing. We need to improve, both from natural improvement in the list and bringing in more talent via trading and free agency.

Also just going into development mode for the rest of the year seems stupid, we will learn more having a real crack every week. I don’t want anymore throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting again.

We have 4 games to go, let’s see what happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:22 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4752
You need to look back a bit and look at the bigger picture and look at how the better teams do it. Get out of the “ Carlton bubble”

Bolton lost the players to some degree. He was too full on but also in a structural sense he was trying to fast track young blokes like Dow, O’Brien, SPS in the midfield. When Teague took over the first thing he did was put Curnow and Murphy back in the middle

In order to play finals you have to bat 8 or 9 deep in the midfield.
Ed Curnow is our best in there 12 months on .That’s a worry. A big worry. Those 3 young guys all were top 10 picks. They have gone backwards.
To give Murphy another year is stupid. He is finished as a footballer. When the heat is on he goes missing in action.More to the point he blocks the development of a young kid in 2021.
Then there is Setterfield and Kennedy two blokes who cost us two picks in the 20s and pick 43.
Both aren’t mids.
Setterfields stats looked impressive on Sunday but he had little impact. And when the heat was on he went MIA. He is slow second to the ball in close. He doesn’t impress much. Kennedy does as a small forward. He has great hands and is a good kick. That is his role. Stands out like dogs balls to me yet we persist playing him in the middle or not at all.

It’s lovely we get to see Eddie do cameos in a Blues jumper but what about the next 5 years. I want to see what Owies brings to the table but it’s another year waiting because you can’t drop Betts. Teague wanted him. Sos didnt. I agreed with him over that.

So who of the future young brigade have improved since the club have come out and said they will not make too many changes
Weitering
DeKoning
That’s it
The rest have gone backwards
Furthermore I would of liked to have seen Honey get another game
Ditto Philp
Cottrell to me showed something but was dropped for Polson who should have been delisted 2 years ago

The big unknown is how good SOS s crop of 2019 picks will be. All are mids. Let’s hope they can deliver otherwise like the last 20 years we are going nowhere.
Put a pencil through
Kreuzer
Lang
Macreadie
O’Dwyer
Simpson
Moore
Goddard

Watch guys like Jonas who play a similar role to Plowman. They are better. Collingwood don’t rate him. They did their homework and isolated him on a quality opponent and the results speak for themselves.
Plowman is an average footballer who doesn’t like the heat . To give him a 3 year contract is a joke.
Terrible kick. Panics under pressure. Always has.
Once again like we did in 2012 we are overrating our list.

I would hate to see Cripps go but wait till 2021 and we will get bugger all for him with free agency.
Trade SPS. You may get a decent pick for him.
The reason. I think it’s safe to conclude even now that SOS has missed on Dow and O’Brien.
Mc Govern well we have had 2 years to see him and MC Adam is his equal. We missed out on 2 picks in the 20s because of this ridiculous trade.
We need more midfield depth.
Getting a big banana like Williams often doesn’t work a lot of the time
Granted a fit C Curnow will make a huge difference
Newman goes alright
A fit Marchbank helps but how long do you wait till he gets his body right

Compare the the last half of last year when Teague took over and this year and we have improved marginally because Cripps hasn’t had the greatest.
But the lack of development of the guys who have been at the club for a few years that are midfielders is a massive concern to me.
Granted not having a seconds competition hasn’t helped but that applies to all teams.


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