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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:34 am 
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Ken Hunter

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toddkurnski wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
Hang on, everyone seems happy with both the recruits including myself, and I'm not even mildly concerned about Essendon**** getting 8, they will just Parish and Francis it anyway.

What some and myself are saying, and this is something also good to think about from a business sense, is always extract the maximum value from your assets. There is no harm in discussing and having different opinions on whether that was accomplished or not.


Did Stephen Wells get maximum value for pick 30 by selecting a 32 year old Shaun Higgins? I wouldn't think so yet Geelong are being lauded as one of the biggest winners of there trade period. Why? Because they got their targets. Just like we did. Failing to get Tom Papley quite possibly cost us a finals campaign this year. That's the difference one player can make and the impact a failed outcome can have.
We went in with a strategy. We came out with the players we wanted, 2020 second and 3rd round draft picks to use and all of next years selections intact. How anyone can find fault in that amazes me.

Pretty sure I was just told not to worry about what competitors were doing... I care as much about what Wells has done as what Dodoro got. I can see your point of view, get in, get what you want, get out and look to the finals in 2021.
Blue Vain wrote:
How anyone can find fault in that amazes me.
A shame that you can't acknowledge that others just see it differently.

Go Blues.


It amazes me that we ALL agree we got our targets, and glad we did, but some can't (wont) see that its 'normal' and reasonable to see, clearly, there's 2 sides of seeing the cost of trading Pick 8. No ones wrong imo.

We got in 2 targets and they are worth every cent, andaffordable given we had a war chest going into this, but we didn't spend all of our 105% TPP and there was still money on the table we didnt use on a third target, if we could.

What some believe, (and it doesn't matter any more), if we Front Loaded the Saad contract, I'm, and some others are reasonably sure North would look foolish taking a player who didnt want to be there and have to cough up a $MIL, ditto Effendrugs*, therefore Saad would get to where he wanted. Effencheats* also threatened to use the PSD, such is the power of the PSD.

Austin doesn't owe us an explanation why he didnt use the PSD and keep pick 8 for the draft, but it does look, from the otside Austin blinked. There's no problem thinking that. Austin didnt make it public Effendumb* would take Saad in the PSD. We will never know.

Its done. We've got our targets. We aim for Finals in 2021, and more. Lets enjoy the ride. We are comin' babeeee

GO BLUEBAGGERS

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Blue Vain wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
I also want to make it clear that I am happy overall with our haul, particularly that we were able to get 2 really good players who each fill a need, and maintain our full deck for next year's assault on a gun midfielder.

But that said, I believe we played our hand too early, sacrificed any power we had in negotiations and unnecessarily left ourselves with no remaining currency to be a player in the final crazy moments where other clubs made us look like amateurs.

It's a feeling not unlike having a scrappy win over opposition you should've thrashed.

Agree with this. 2 very good players and we have come a long way from the Tutt and Fasolo days. Actually getting in quality so not complaints there.

But it just feels like there was more meat on the bone this year.

Did we not fully understand how much shit the Pies were in? If not, why not?
Saad had walked out on the Cheats, was uncontracted, why did we refuse to get in the media and continuously talk about our superior leverage in that situation? Give the trade a sense of inevitability which is what Port ended up doing and paid just about the right price. It just seemed like a case of not wanting to walk a player through the draft or PSD two years running.

Anyway, we are much stronger next year. Anything less than finals will be a disappointment so there is expectation now. I know how ell this team deals with expectation...


Another nice summary. :clap:


How is it a nice summary?
Firstly, how can we walk him to the PSD when the Bombers had already stated they'd take him? No doubt other times like the Kangas would have jumped at him as well.
Secondly, had we taken him in the ND, we would have paid more than we did. At least we got some change from pick 8 doing the trade. Nobody involved in the industry is saying we've overpaid. Yet some posters here can't let it go.


Because as a general rule, the industry have been soooo empathetic and understanding of all things Carlton??? (Lyon, Watson and Whately have no skewed views on Carlton???)

The perception by supporters that we 'overpaid' is compelling enough for it to be our reality...and yes it's subjective blah blah

If we were to use the laws of precedence, maybe someone can show how many OOC, 26 yo HBFs have for the equivalent of a pick 12

The deal may have been done for political and strategic 'insider' reasons we're not aware of...I'm fine with that

But...on purely numbers, the perception that Ess won that deal is an easy one to have

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:44 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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If we can bring in two players of the quality of Williams and Saad every year I’ll be a very happy camper.

And yes I understand that Williams isn’t a trade and nor was Martin but the work of a list manager includes making guys like Williams and Martin want to come to us and getting them to nominate. If you did a rating of clubs free agency acquisitions over the last two years where would Carlton rank?

And there’s still Fogarty and the draft picks where we might find a third or fourth quality player. Austin certainly has a reputation for doing good things with middle and late picks.

And we haven’t compromised next year’s picks.

In here it seems sometimes like everything is supposed to be shit if it’s not absolutely perfect.

It’s never perfect.

Nothing is.

Someone posted earlier about how we used to pick up guys like Fasolo during trade week.

Different world.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:05 am 
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Horrie Clover

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Overall a strong free agent and trade period. We bring in two guys who walk straight into the best 22 and make us instantly better. Both bring pace which we’ve been lacking for a while now. 26/27 year old mature bodies that are ready to win now. Fogarty is relativey unknown but I like the intensity that he plays with and, it sounds like, he won’t fail for a lack of effort.

In isolation, we overpaid a bit for Saad but in the end we got our man. Austin and the list management team need to dissect the trade and what could have been done better. I still don’t quite understand why we just gave up negotiating with 30 hours left in the trade period. Still I don’t think the overpay was absolutely egregious given the compromised nature of this draft and the fact we’ve invested so heavily in the draft since 2015. I like that we held on to our future picks given that draft is rated highly, wont be as compromised and keeps our resources intact for a tilt at another A grader or two next off season.

No excuses now for this club in 2021. Over to the coaches and players to get the job done


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:22 am 
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Craig Bradley
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This years draft would appear to be largely guesswork. What is known about the potential draftees ? They've hardly been on the paddock. Hopefully there will be a regular comp for next years kids hoping to be drafted. At least then clubs can have a decent squiz at 'em.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:38 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Blue Vain wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Overall our first 2020 2 picks went for Saad and Fogarty. Fogarty will have a big say if we get value.


I don't believe that's looking at the selections in their entirety. We had a slide of picks but we ended up with a downgrade of our second and an upgrade of our 3rd round pick. So we still retain second and third round selections.


You are correct. I was running out the door when I was writing that.
We paid our third rounder for Fogarty and downgraded our 2nd.
We received * 3rd rounder in the Saad trade, which we now hold as pick 48(?).
I stand by Fogarty having a bus say if we get value long term from the first round pick8.
Hopefully playing finals with both in the side this year will make us feel much, much better.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:40 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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murraycray wrote:
This years draft would appear to be largely guesswork. What is known about the potential draftees ? They've hardly been on the paddock. Hopefully there will be a regular comp for next years kids hoping to be drafted. At least then clubs can have a decent squiz at 'em.


Might also help some sides who traditionally don’t draft well to arse some picks. :lol:
Can see the media love over draft pick 8 now.........it won’t take long. :garthp:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:03 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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That's precisely why one needs to look at the entirety of the trades rather than looking at each deal in isolation (as I wrote on the List Management thread).

Big picture people, big picture.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:54 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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When we get a taste of Saad in our jumper running it out of defence, zipping and weaving, kicking lase out to Harry or over the back to Fish and even going all the way himself.....when people truly see how much better he makes our team..... they are going to have short memories.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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For obvious reasons I don’t watch a lot of Essendon* games but for those who know their list better than I do if you were to nominate the top 5 players in order you’d want to poach from them who would they be?

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“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:18 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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1. Merrett
2. Saad
3. Shiel
4. Ridley
5. McDonald-Tipungwuti

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:24 pm 
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Robert Walls

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GWS wrote:
For obvious reasons I don’t watch a lot of Essendon** games but for those who know their list better than I do if you were to nominate the top 5 players in order you’d want to poach from them who would they be?

McKenna
Fantasia
Daniher
McKernan
Saad

Clearly the ones who came to their senses :)

In reality
Merrett
AMT

Very good players who would slot straight in, in positions of need. Nothing else on the list excites or improves us in a position.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:45 pm 
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Ken Hands

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I’d have McGrath over AMT any day of the week.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:08 pm 
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Ken Hunter

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ferdinand wrote:
I’d have McGrath over AMT any day of the week.


sAAD

saad

Merrett

Merrett

Saad ... I'm happy with our list TBH.

Those 2 would win us a GF.
One would get us close with another first 22...Williams....yes. ..Flag :beer:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:32 am 
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Ken Hunter
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So basically we’re saying Saad is a top three player at Essendon*?

Imagine if Essendon* had traded pick 8 for one of our top three players plus change.

This place would be in meltdown.

I wouldn’t do that deal for any of our top six...

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
Charlie
Docherty
Martin

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“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:06 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Not even going to bother looking at the * list but off the top of my head and in no order, Heppell, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel, Smith, Hurley, Daniher & Zach would have been looked at as their top players. Daniher, like our Charlie, would be regarded as one of their top players, even though he hasn't been out on the park.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:11 am 
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Ken Hunter
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SurreyBlue wrote:
Not even going to bother looking at the * list but off the top of my head and in no order, Heppell, Merrett, McGrath, Shiel, Smith, Hurley, Daniher & Zach would have been looked at as their top players. Daniher, like our Charlie, would be regarded as one of their top players, even though he hasn't been out on the park.


Not Saad?

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“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:51 am 
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Geoff Southby
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GWS wrote:
For obvious reasons I don’t watch a lot of Essendon** games but for those who know their list better than I do if you were to nominate the top 5 players in order you’d want to poach from them who would they be?


1. Mcgrath
2. Merret
3. Saad
4. Mckenna
5. Fantazia

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:53 am 
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Robert Walls

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GWS wrote:
So basically we’re saying Saad is a top three player at Essendon**?

Imagine if Essendon** had traded pick 8 for one of our top three players plus change.

This place would be in meltdown.

I wouldn’t do that deal for any of our top six...

Cripps
Walsh
Weitering
Charlie
Docherty
Martin

The cheats list is like our list in 2015. It's a train wreck. Lots of old players not worth much, not great youth. It's terrible.

So Saad being at the top of a terrible list doesn't count for much. The closest equivalent would be Zac Touhy from that era... Who was not worth pick 8 as determined by the market.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:22 am 
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Harry Vallence

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Saad is a good player, but I wouldn't rate him in the top 3 at *.
Did we overpay for him? IMHO we did.
Did we drastically overpay for him? IMHO we didn't.
The deal is done. He is one of ours now. Lets hope his run and ball use off half back play a major in role in number 17.


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