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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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rhino27 wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Who's on the injured list that would be ready to take Murphy's spot, ahead of Gibbons, Setterfield, Cunningham, Newnes & Kennedy?


Dow.


Murph is so far ahead of Dow its not even funny.




Both can't tackle.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:42 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Except Murph can hit a target


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:25 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Who passed on butler?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:19 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Blue Vain wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Don't stand in the way of the lynch mob with your facts Cecil. :lol:

Says BV who disappeared from the Murphy thread in the face of facts...


What are you waffling on about this time?
You obviously don't understand what facts are. Cecil provided actual data. You dont.
Marc Murphy is nowhere near the player he was but he is still best 22 IMHO . It seems the coaches have agreed to date as well and let's be honest, they're the ones who know. He'll get rested at times but it's up to others to keep him out.
The way I see it, we were dead last this time last year and at the start of this round we were 12th. That's with the 5th worst injury list according to the AFL. We're doing relatively OK but whenever we lose, doomsayers run to threads wanting people dropped, sacked etc and carrying on like the world is ending.

If you want me to hang around threads to pacify bedwetters after every loss , you're out of luck.

Now now.
You entered the discussion, said I was a keyboard warrior and then left it when it was obvious you were just clinging to Murphy's past status and not his present form.
Now we are a lynch mob. Playing the man is usually regarded a s poor excuse for a counter argument.


WTF?
I haven't personally attacked anyone in this thread. You're the one who quoted me this morning. :?
And when I bite back, you're playing the victim. Go and troll someone else.

Not trolling you or anybody.
Just pointing out your dislike of stats and facts based on them in preference for Murphy's past loyalty being a good enough reason to get picked.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:45 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Can people give it a spell with raising Murphy and his tackle numbers? The day we’re picking Murphy based on his tackling is the day he should give it away. Brad Hill, Shannon Hurn, Josh Caddy, Daniel Rich, Ed Langdon, Sam Docherty.. all guys averaging around the same tackle numbers as Murphy. Some guys play more of an outside game.
If you want a midfield of hard at it, contested ball winning, tackling machines, go watch the Demons and see how enjoyable their game style is.
Murphy is a high possession, high efficiency midfielder. You can cry ‘clanger’ all you like, but the facts are that of our midfield core this season (Cripps, Curnow, Walsh, Setterfield, Kennedy & Murphy) only Cripps and Curnow get more of the ball and none of them have a better disposal efficiency than Murphy.

Don’t confuse the above for me vouching for him being an automatic selection. I want selection on merit and the above indicates that Murphy is earning his spot.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:49 am 
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Geoff Southby

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To give a mid thirties guy a one year contract the main criteria to me is on field leadership.
Murphy provides none. He provides self preservation footy.

I rather player Honey for a month on a wing to speed up his development at the expense of Murphy.
If the club is happy for a 34 year old to get 20 soft possessions a week it deserves to be in the bottom half of the ladder


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:55 am 
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Rod Ashman

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cecil89 wrote:
Can people give it a spell with raising Murphy and his tackle numbers? The day we’re picking Murphy based on his tackling is the day he should give it away. Brad Hill, Shannon Hurn, Josh Caddy, Daniel Rich, Ed Langdon, Sam Docherty.. all guys averaging around the same tackle numbers as Murphy. Some guys play more of an outside game.
If you want a midfield of hard at it, contested ball winning, tackling machines, go watch the Demons and see how enjoyable their game style is.
Murphy is a high possession, high efficiency midfielder. You can cry ‘clanger’ all you like, but the facts are that of our midfield core this season (Cripps, Curnow, Walsh, Setterfield, Kennedy & Murphy) only Cripps and Curnow get more of the ball and none of them have a better disposal efficiency than Murphy.

Don’t confuse the above for me vouching for him being an automatic selection. I want selection on merit and the above indicates that Murphy is earning his spot.


Agree completely.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:43 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I agree with cecil89.

Murphy’s career tackling average is 3.6 per game. Bradley’s was 1.5. Does that make Murphy more than twice the player Bradley was? Of course it doesn’t.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:44 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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cecil89 wrote:
Can people give it a spell with raising Murphy and his tackle numbers? The day we’re picking Murphy based on his tackling is the day he should give it away. Brad Hill, Shannon Hurn, Josh Caddy, Daniel Rich, Ed Langdon, Sam Docherty.. all guys averaging around the same tackle numbers as Murphy. Some guys play more of an outside game.
If you want a midfield of hard at it, contested ball winning, tackling machines, go watch the Demons and see how enjoyable their game style is.
Murphy is a high possession, high efficiency midfielder. You can cry ‘clanger’ all you like, but the facts are that of our midfield core this season (Cripps, Curnow, Walsh, Setterfield, Kennedy & Murphy) only Cripps and Curnow get more of the ball and none of them have a better disposal efficiency than Murphy.

Don’t confuse the above for me vouching for him being an automatic selection. I want selection on merit and the above indicates that Murphy is earning his spot.


Murphy's numbers are not as great as you think. Well, certainly since round 2.

He should have higher numbers than Kennedy, Walsh and Setters given he has spent more time on the field than most midfield candidates.

His clanger's the last 3 weeks have been seriously bad and can't be disregarded for a bloke with so much experience and efficiency level. Why the recent turnovers resulting in goals? Can't just ignore the recent form. Its important to look at the clangers given they are part of the make up of his disposal totals. Clangers tell us something about concentration/focus and form.

Quote:
Murphy's disposals this year round by round:

1: 26 disposals
2: 24
3: 11
4: 21
5: 14
6: 13
7:15
8: 22
9: 15

I guess, with a fresh body he made a promising start in the first 2 rounds, but since then he has only achieved 20 possessions twice.

If you deduct his 2 clangers per game then he has had only one 20 effective disposal game in the last 7 rounds.

Take 2 clangers from the numbers above since round 3 and you have 9, 12, 11, 13, 20 and 13 effective possessions. Not really thrilling numbers for an experienced player. Have to consider that he is 33yo, and question if he should be offered a contract extension to 2022, based on the facts.


The numbers above for the next 7 rounds, after round 2, were numbers Dow was exceeding.

Like I said, the MC are selecting him week in week out regardless of his numbers and form, so there must be a reason for it and I'll back their decision. Given I/we don't actually know the reason why the MC selects him, we look for reasons and discuss them in these such forums to give us clues why because the numbers wouldn't warrant a spot in the best 22 for many others who are our future, and you know what, there's good reasons to keep him in the best 22 just as there are good reasons he needs a rest.

Dow has ben injured since round 1 so lets be realistic about Dow's chances of overtaking Murph, so that could very well be another reason.

Its not a witch hunt, its an evaluation of performance and selection.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:30 am 
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Bert Deacon
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Heavs wrote:
Just as a risk management point of view shouldn't we be getting games into younger blokes? We are going to lose circa 900 games of experience, a good chance of it all in the one off-season. We are 12th, which is great, but we aren't winning it this year. I'm not saying throw everyone out and play all <50 game players each week - but lets look to the future and start cycling them through.
Totally agree, both from the load management angle as we approach our turn for a cluster of games with short turn-around time and also the longer term angle you mention of losing all that experience over the next couple of seasons. The load management angle hasn't really been needed yet, thus far our draw has been pretty normal with regard days between games. I suspect the next batch of games we get allocated will have some quick turn-arounds where management of Simmo, Eddie and Murph (probably others too) comes to the fore and the young blokes will get their chance.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:38 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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aboynamedsue wrote:
I agree with cecil89.

Murphy’s career tackling average is 3.6 per game. Bradley’s was 1.5. Does that make Murphy more than twice the player Bradley was? Of course it doesn’t.


Murphy's tackling numbers were much better once upon a time than they are this year. That's the past, just as is Bradley. We must look forward in our pursuit for improvement and excellence.

Murphy has been accumulating his numbers in his stellar career since 2006.
In 2005 he was the Number 1 draft pick for good reason.
In 2011 he was voted by his peers as MVP in the AFL.

Fast forward since then:

In 2018 he had a 30+ possession game...under Bolton
In 2019 he had a 29 possession game....under Bolton

His numbers are on the decline in 2020.

We have to face facts Murph is in his twilight year(s) and whilst we should appreciate and celebrate the past and the numbers and averages he has achieved, we have to be mindful the club wants to be a Destination club in its pursuit of wins and more importantly the 17th Flag and we must look at Murphy's recent form, not his past, and its not as good as his career averages.

Just this week Murphy's tackle numbers were reported in the Media that they are not acceptable, and the inference there is that he's half the tackler he once was, and imo, and many others, not up to AFL standard.

We must look at the NOW, not the past as we look forward to our FUTURE, and its obvious, unless he becomes more consistent than he has been since round 2 he will not be an automatic best 22 player for too much longer. How long, I don't know, but the end is near. That's not just an opinion, that's life when you hit 30yo. Marc just turned 33, and the young players who were also high draft picks like himself will overtake him. When? When the MC makes the call.

What some of us are saying is that Marc's figures haven't been good since round 2, and its interesting debate as to why he is selected week in week out by the MC. There is a reason, and its not just form, looking at his numbers. That's all. Some of us want to know why. I've got the time to discuss it. I've been in 14 day isolation ... till yesterday.

We may not have the personnel to take his spot ... but then again, we might.

Its crazy times in this year of the Covid, and nothing is normal.

Its worth the discussion as we look to the future. We always do.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:11 pm 
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John James
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bondiblue wrote:
aboynamedsue wrote:
I agree with cecil89.

Murphy’s career tackling average is 3.6 per game. Bradley’s was 1.5. Does that make Murphy more than twice the player Bradley was? Of course it doesn’t.


Murphy's tackling numbers were much better once upon a time than they are this year. That's the past, just as is Bradley. We must look forward in our pursuit for improvement and excellence.

Murphy has been accumulating his numbers in his stellar career since 2006.
In 2005 he was the Number 1 draft pick for good reason.
In 2011 he was voted by his peers as MVP in the AFL.

Fast forward since then:

In 2018 he had a 30+ possession game...under Bolton
In 2019 he had a 29 possession game....under Bolton

His numbers are on the decline in 2020.

We have to face facts Murph is in his twilight year(s) and whilst we should appreciate and celebrate the past and the numbers and averages he has achieved, we have to be mindful the club wants to be a Destination club in its pursuit of wins and more importantly the 17th Flag and we must look at Murphy's recent form, not his past, and its not as good as his career averages.

Just this week Murphy's tackle numbers were reported in the Media that they are not acceptable, and the inference there is that he's half the tackler he once was, and imo, and many others, not up to AFL standard.

We must look at the NOW, not the past as we look forward to our FUTURE, and its obvious, unless he becomes more consistent than he has been since round 2 he will not be an automatic best 22 player for too much longer. How long, I don't know, but the end is near. That's not just an opinion, that's life when you hit 30yo. Marc just turned 33, and the young players who were also high draft picks like himself will overtake him. When? When the MC makes the call.

What some of us are saying is that Marc's figures haven't been good since round 2, and its interesting debate as to why he is selected week in week out by the MC. There is a reason, and its not just form, looking at his numbers. That's all. Some of us want to know why. I've got the time to discuss it. I've been in 14 day isolation ... till yesterday.

We may not have the personnel to take his spot ... but then again, we might.

Its crazy times in this year of the Covid, and nothing is normal.

Its worth the discussion as we look to the future. We always do.


I would suggest Zac Fisher would be a more than useful replacement.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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The Murphy talk is stupid.

Is he in our top 12 players currently available?

Yes

Then he plays

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:39 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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kingkerna wrote:
Who passed on butler?

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Good question.. He's having a good year and ripped it up last night. I'm guessing we thought we were getting Papley so he may have only been insurance (Eddie ended up being that anyway).. No knowledge, just a guess

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:58 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Not trolling you or anybody.
Just pointing out your dislike of stats and facts based on them in preference for Murphy's past loyalty being a good enough reason to get picked.


Go bother someone else old timer.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:19 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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kingkerna wrote:
The Murphy talk is stupid.

Is he in our top 12 players currently available?

Yes

Then he plays


Now be nice kerna.

As I mentioned earlier, everything is up for discussion for us die hard Carltonians. That's what we do.

It is not stupid, there's nothing being said that's not intelligent or baseless.
Its a discussion initially started because of the talk in the media of an extended contract for Murph. That's been put to bed now we know his contract is extended till the end of next year, which is fine by me.

His form is being discussed.
His form since round 2.
It is surprising how long he has been out of form.

Its fair enough you rate him in your top 12 available.
I just did my own list in order of importance and fit to play, and he's is not in my top 12, but that's just an opinion Ive based on the investigation I've done on his output.

IMO, based on the numbers, not experience, he wasn't in the best 12 players in most games since round 2.

He hasn't been consistent, yet he is valued and selected by the MC in the best 22 every week. So, as inquisitive souls looking for reasons why.

Its not because you think he's in the best 12 players (because that's debatable and we don't know the MC's reasoning, so we discuss.

I don't think he has dislayed form of a top 12 player since round 2.

I'm not saying he should be dropped. But, based on his numbers I don't think he would be guaranteed to keep his spot if there was a VFL comp for players to show they have the form to warrant being selected, players the likes of Fisher, Dow, OBrien, Honey, Philp who could be pressing, as well if we didn't have 6 senior payers injured. Nothing stupid about that. Is there?

Murphy's form hasn't been good since round 2, other than against North (22 possessions), and I'd like to see some improvement and consistency from him, given his experience.
I certainly hope he doesn't continue to play the way he has been; that's for sure. Don't you want to see him improve from this form slump? Thats' all.

We all have to question where the improvement is going to come from if we are going to be a Destination club at the end of the season, let alone making finals, because we have all winged that we aren't a Destination club.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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His tackle numbers always come up in these conversations. Murphy's law I guess

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:17 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Would Stkilda be better if Geary was playing HB or have they worked out that putting a younger player in Coffield to play that role would be better going forward.

Would Stkilda be better off with Geary in the midfield or have they said NO your finished its time to move forward and give Gresham more midfield time.

Did they also take the easy option (like we are with Murphy) and say we'll move Geary onto the wing OR have they said NO we'll use Billings as our wingman going forward.

Point is all 3 players have improved as a result of Ratts making the tough choice with there Skipper and leader to move past him with younger kids that could provide the same output but infact are probably doing far better than Geary would have and the results speak for themselves.

Just imagine if Teague said sorry Murph your playing forward pocket and your midfield minutes will be used by Fisher and Dow.
The time has come to move forward and put faith into why we drafted these boys in the first place.
We have the midfield young talent (Dow,Fisher, Cunningham, Stocker, SPS, O'Brien etc etc ) now is the time to use them.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:31 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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deano35 wrote:
Would Stkilda be better if Geary was playing HB or have they worked out that putting a younger player in Coffield to play that role would be better going forward.

Would Stkilda be better off with Geary in the midfield or have they said NO your finished its time to move forward and give Gresham more midfield time.

Did they also take the easy option (like we are with Murphy) and say we'll move Geary onto the wing OR have they said NO we'll use Billings as our wingman going forward.

Point is all 3 players have improved as a result of Ratts making the tough choice with there Skipper and leader to move past him with younger kids that could provide the same output but infact are probably doing far better than Geary would have and the results speak for themselves.

Just imagine if Teague said sorry Murph your playing forward pocket and your midfield minutes will be used by Fisher and Dow.
The time has come to move forward and put faith into why we drafted these boys in the first place.
We have the midfield young talent (Dow,Fisher, Cunningham, Stocker, SPS, O'Brien etc etc ) now is the time to use them.


There’s merit to this, but Coffield, Billings & Gresham have all played alongside Geary and now gone past him as a player. Dow, Cuningham, Stocker & O’Brien haven’t gone past Murphy, YET.
SPS is playing the role the coach wants him in. I’ll give you Fisher. He’s best 22 and should play this week. Don’t think it should be Murph to make way for him though.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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deano35 wrote:
Would Stkilda be better if Geary was playing HB or have they worked out that putting a younger player in Coffield to play that role would be better going forward.

Would Stkilda be better off with Geary in the midfield or have they said NO your finished its time to move forward and give Gresham more midfield time.

Did they also take the easy option (like we are with Murphy) and say we'll move Geary onto the wing OR have they said NO we'll use Billings as our wingman going forward.

Point is all 3 players have improved as a result of Ratts making the tough choice with there Skipper and leader to move past him with younger kids that could provide the same output but infact are probably doing far better than Geary would have and the results speak for themselves.

Just imagine if Teague said sorry Murph your playing forward pocket and your midfield minutes will be used by Fisher and Dow.
The time has come to move forward and put faith into why we drafted these boys in the first place.
We have the midfield young talent (Dow,Fisher, Cunningham, Stocker, SPS, O'Brien etc etc ) now is the time to use them.


I agree with all that and if you recall, I was the one complaining that Teague was playing the older guys in the middle instead of blooding the youth.
But I still think Marc Murphy is best 22. He can play forward competently, midfield and wing. He's probably a bench player now but until the other players push him out, he should stay in the side. His ball use going inside 50 is better than 90% of our players and that's a quality we desperately need. With so many goals coming from turnovers, it's pointless replacing him with someone who will hand the ball back to the opposition.

If Dow, Fisher etc are flying in the practice games, give them an opportunity but let's not give away spots because some people just want change. It's like the incessant calls for Stocker earlier in the season. If the bloke isn't putting in and getting a kick in the 2's, why reward him for it? If the others force Murphy out of the side due to great form, no worries.

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