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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:01 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:52 pm
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Mickstar wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Waterman wrote:
100% spot on David31 re Hodge , and now they have replaced him with Birchill . More grand final winning experience.


I was under the impression we already went down this road with Judd. Didn’t he bring that grand final winning experience, mentality, culture, training, etc. and passed it on to the previous high draft picks.......sounds like either more excuses or history repeating.
Either way, doesn’t sound or look good.


We gave up Kennedy to get Judd.They gave up zilch to get Hodge............reckon things would have turned out differently if we had retained Kennedy.


How though ? We would have had a midfield of Murphy, Gibbs, Masten and a bunch of b/c-graders. Not really enough to challenge even if we had Kennedy and Fev up forward. Plus who knows about the leadership void the non-recruitment of Judd would have led to.

In hindsight the one to have given up was probably pick 1 (Kreuzer) and we would have had both JK and Juddy. Easy to say now though at the time a ruck was our biggest need and we had the best in the country going at pick 1. Shudder at the days of Acland, Mclaren and co.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 am 
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Rod Ashman

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I’m hoping this is another very teachable moment for the players, culturally.
We’ve already had a couple this season and it’s pretty much the same message: if you drop the ball even for 5mins, it’s over. If we get ahead of ourselves (and feel it’s ok to drop the intensity, even for a few minutes), it’s over.

I think we have definitely improved since last year. I don’t buy all the rubbish info of the list. Kennedy, Setterfield, SPS, Cunningham all on the fringe have all improved significantly. Weitering is in AA form. The big forwards have all been much better, esp when working well together, although we def need more from each of them for longer. And Martin is a massive recruit as good as pretty much any of the others cited.

But the key ingredient for us is, and has been for a while, intensity.
Even when we had Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Krueger and Fev in full flight we were never really a Premiership challenging team mainly b/c only Judd brought 100% intensity for 100% of the time.

Against the Hawks, we were unrelenting for most of the first quarter but then I suspect we took our foot off the gas ever so slightly, which allowed the Hawks the opportunity to settle and take the initiative which we were never able to recover.

This, more than any specific personnel, is the biggest issue at this point. We are not vying for a Premiership. We are looking to improve so that we are in a position to vie for the flag next year and in the coming 5-6 years.
I believe we will get a big name at the end of the year, if we keep performing at or better than we have (eg Josh Kelly who might get squeezed out of GWS). But it won’t be worth much if we don’t become a bit more like the great champions of our game, eg. J Selwood who would sell their own grandmother just to win a coin toss!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:54 am 
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Harry Vallence

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Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:43 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Message ny AFL coach to their team.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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AGRO wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.


Bolts did that. We saw how it ended for him.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:00 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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rhino27 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.


Bolts did that. We saw how it ended for him.




Dow - 40 games
Fisher - 50 games
SPS - 70 games

when do you think they’ll be ready, to take some of the workload off Cripps, Curnow and Murphy.


Yes Bolton put games into them (and rightly so) but if they aren’t able to take the next step then we have a problem - and it’s the old chestnut “talent identification-v-development”.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:03 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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rhino27 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.


Bolts did that. We saw how it ended for him.



Should be playing at least one of them in there now, supported by bigger bodies

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:18 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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to be fair if Fish hadn't of hurt himself he would have been in there.

And Dow was injured at the start

Its a season where for injured kids its a bit tough to get back in.

And also yes,

time to trial SPS and others in the engine room.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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AGRO wrote:
rhino27 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.


Bolts did that. We saw how it ended for him.




Dow - 40 games
Fisher - 50 games
SPS - 70 games

when do you think they’ll be ready, to take some of the workload off Cripps, Curnow and Murphy.


Yes Bolton put games into them (and rightly so) but if they aren’t able to take the next step then we have a problem - and it’s the old chestnut “talent identification-v-development”.


I agree with you Agro.

Sure the kids were gifted games by Bolton, and they had good reason for doing so. No doubt the kids learned something from that.

Today I read:

- North' 2017 pick 4 (the pick after Dow) Davies-Uniacke has an A grader in the making. He had 22 disposals and 4 tackles.

-Freo's 2019 pick 8, 19yo Calb Serong is Fyfe's Robin in the midfield. He had 24 disposals and 6 tackles.

Maybe we are too harsh on Dow's numbers.
I thought Walsh was our Robin to Cripps....the original

Can't see Murphy being the same value for Teague as he was last year when Teague decided Cripps Curnow and murphy to start in the midfield group.
Murphy is one year older, and less effective, and Dow is a year older with another preseason under his belt. Pity Dow has been injured, but he should be ready to hit the ground running with a fire in his belly.

Fisher we know the footy world admires him and it was bad luck he got injured in round 1, but he's a est 22 player.

SPS was drafted as a midfielder. Is evasive and has a lot of tricks. At this stage he doesn't seem to be strong enough to lock down on a player in the backline. Plays a risky game for last line for mine. He should be in the midfield group.

Then there's OBrien who is the same age as Dow and Davies-Uniacke who should be getting games too, and the promising Honey and Philp who should add value to the midfield group with their pace and skills made for inside mid work.

Kemp could surprise next year, but for now, Dow, SPS Fisher are no brainers.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:42 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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AGRO wrote:
rhino27 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Agree with 17th. We are 10 wins, 10 losses since Teague. So we are def a middle of the round team. Which is a hellaluva lot better than under Bolts. Our best is pretty good (see wins vs Lions, Cats and 10 sec from beating Port), but our worst isn't great (Cats in Rd 23, Hawks, Tigers 1st qtr) and mentally we are fragile.

A couple of quality mids would really make a diff



At some stage Teague is going to have to remove the “training wheels” and start playing Dow, Fisher, SPS in the engine room rather than Ed Curnow and Murphy.


Bolts did that. We saw how it ended for him.




Dow - 40 games
Fisher - 50 games
SPS - 70 games

when do you think they’ll be ready, to take some of the workload off Cripps, Curnow and Murphy.


Yes Bolton put games into them (and rightly so) but if they aren’t able to take the next step then we have a problem - and it’s the old chestnut “talent identification-v-development”.


I don't disagree with you and IMO I believe Fisher is ready and should be getting games and game time in the middle. Has been injured so may be a case of AR thinking his fitness isn't quite there atm.
SPS absolutely should be further up the ground where he can be more damaging with the ball.
Dow I have said in the past and nothing I have seen has changed my mind, I don't think he is up to it. Poor disposal, little awareness which leads to poor decision making, average defensive skills and still has the body of a 14 year old boy despite 3 full pre seasons. Hope like hell he proves me wrong, but I very much have my doubts on him.

Beyond that, would like us to get a few games into Philp and Honey and have a look at Cottrell. Also would like to see Jack M get more midfield time.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:05 pm 
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Bob Chitty

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17th Premiership wrote:
I’m hoping this is another very teachable moment for the players, culturally.
We’ve already had a couple this season and it’s pretty much the same message: if you drop the ball even for 5mins, it’s over. If we get ahead of ourselves (and feel it’s ok to drop the intensity, even for a few minutes), it’s over.

I think we have definitely improved since last year. I don’t buy all the rubbish info of the list. Kennedy, Setterfield, SPS, Cunningham all on the fringe have all improved significantly. Weitering is in AA form. The big forwards have all been much better, esp when working well together, although we def need more from each of them for longer. And Martin is a massive recruit as good as pretty much any of the others cited.

But the key ingredient for us is, and has been for a while, intensity.
Even when we had Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Krueger and Fev in full flight we were never really a Premiership challenging team mainly b/c only Judd brought 100% intensity for 100% of the time.

Against the Hawks, we were unrelenting for most of the first quarter but then I suspect we took our foot off the gas ever so slightly, which allowed the Hawks the opportunity to settle and take the initiative which we were never able to recover.

This, more than any specific personnel, is the biggest issue at this point. We are not vying for a Premiership. We are looking to improve so that we are in a position to vie for the flag next year and in the coming 5-6 years.
I believe we will get a big name at the end of the year, if we keep performing at or better than we have (eg Josh Kelly who might get squeezed out of GWS). But it won’t be worth much if we don’t become a bit more like the great champions of our game, eg. J Selwood who would sell their own grandmother just to win a coin toss!

Fantastic post 17th. I agree with it completely.

R1: Did not show up with the required intensity for the first quarter and half. Fell a long way behind. Worked back into it late but the damage was already done. That was teachable moment number one.

R2: Carbon copy of round 1 for the first quarter a half (didn’t show up with the required intensity). Melbourne smacked us around the ball early. Worked back into it but ultimately cost ourselves a win (which we are now ruing) due to the start. Players did not learn from round 1. Teachable moment number 2.

R3: Came out with fantastic intensity and effort against a good time on their home deck. Got the 4 points, despite a flat finish (which I think was less intensity based but more about losing structure and not knowing how to seal the deal). This should have provided the players with the positive affirmation that if you bring the intensity you can beat anyone.

R4: Ditto to round 3. Came out with great intensity and dominated Essendon* in every relevant stat under the sun. Should have won by 3-4 goals but our execution let us down on the night. Still won so should again provide positive affirmation as to the benefits of playing with intensity.

R5: Carbon copy of rounds 1 and 2. Did not show up with any intensity against the Saints. Smacked around the ball early again. Worked back into it but too little, too late. Teachable moment number 3.

R6: Came with 4 quarters of great intensity against the Dogs. Best win I’ve seen in a long time. Should be the benchmark and provide again positive affirmation of what we can achieve when we play with hunger and intensity.

R7: Thought the intensity was there against Port. Lost largely due to some poor execution late and also Port are just a quality side. There’s no shame in losing to better sides if we bring the intensity - I can live with that because then it’s all about execution and talent. We are continuing to improve both of those facets of our game.

R8: Great intensity vs North for a quarter. Second quarter dropped the intensity and let a struggling team back into the game. Had to fight it out in the second half but ultimately got over the line. Teachable moment number 4 - if you drop the intensity you can let even the most out of form team in the competition back into a game.

R9: Great intensity early (absolutely smashed them in the contested ball early). Then completely dropped the intensity for the rest of the game and lost easily (by the end of the game we’d been smashed in overall contested ball). Teachable moment number 5.

I’m hoping this fluctuation and inability to learn from mistakes is just the hallmarks of a team trying to find its way, especially when coming off years of losing. However, we need to start rectifying this issue ASAP because the longer it goes on, the harder it becomes to kick the habit. The message must be drilled in that we play 4 intense quarters per week. Anything less can’t be accepted if we want to be a premiership contender. The contenders generally have a few howlers a year where the intensity isn’t up to standard. We’ve had 4 out of 9 games where a lack of intensity has cost us a win or a chance at winning (Richmond, Melbourne, St Kilda and Hawthorn) and another one where it almost cost us a win against a side on its knees (North).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:23 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Gee there's some good stuff on this page.
17th, Agro and Bondi hit the nail on the head and they're not the only ones.
The comparison of us and Brisbane with Hodge is good as well.

Too much to comment on after a few days away from TC on the piss celebrating my 70th.

What I like most about this debate so late in the thread is that is is measured, considered and the arguments being put are not just emotive on either side. That in itself is an advance on some of the stuff we see here and I am not blameless in that regard. It tells me that away from the people who have never played or coached or even seen a lot of footy or business, who slag off at the club, the coaches, the umpires on pages 1-5 of the thread, who acccuse us of being anonymous keyboard warriors with a vacuum between the ears, there is hope. There is a light at the end of the tunnel because the true thinkers here are able to see it and identify (or try to) what we might need as a fix.

Good work to all concerned. Yes, we are all anonymous-ish, some more than others but there is a wealth of sporting history and business acumen and thought behind a lot of the posts and that's what I love to see on TC.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:47 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Blues have got off very lightly in the media since the loss. Then again I've been completely avoiding it, so there's that

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:59 am 
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Robert Walls

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In relation to Dow, it's not just that injury has prevented him from getting a clear run at it, it's also that Martin has come in and taken his position. Last year Dow played mostly half-forward with spells on the ball, just as Martin is this year.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:33 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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david31 wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I’m hoping this is another very teachable moment for the players, culturally.
We’ve already had a couple this season and it’s pretty much the same message: if you drop the ball even for 5mins, it’s over. If we get ahead of ourselves (and feel it’s ok to drop the intensity, even for a few minutes), it’s over.

I think we have definitely improved since last year. I don’t buy all the rubbish info of the list. Kennedy, Setterfield, SPS, Cunningham all on the fringe have all improved significantly. Weitering is in AA form. The big forwards have all been much better, esp when working well together, although we def need more from each of them for longer. And Martin is a massive recruit as good as pretty much any of the others cited.

But the key ingredient for us is, and has been for a while, intensity.
Even when we had Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Krueger and Fev in full flight we were never really a Premiership challenging team mainly b/c only Judd brought 100% intensity for 100% of the time.

Against the Hawks, we were unrelenting for most of the first quarter but then I suspect we took our foot off the gas ever so slightly, which allowed the Hawks the opportunity to settle and take the initiative which we were never able to recover.

This, more than any specific personnel, is the biggest issue at this point. We are not vying for a Premiership. We are looking to improve so that we are in a position to vie for the flag next year and in the coming 5-6 years.
I believe we will get a big name at the end of the year, if we keep performing at or better than we have (eg Josh Kelly who might get squeezed out of GWS). But it won’t be worth much if we don’t become a bit more like the great champions of our game, eg. J Selwood who would sell their own grandmother just to win a coin toss!

Fantastic post 17th. I agree with it completely.

R1: Did not show up with the required intensity for the first quarter and half. Fell a long way behind. Worked back into it late but the damage was already done. That was teachable moment number one.

R2: Carbon copy of round 1 for the first quarter a half (didn’t show up with the required intensity). Melbourne smacked us around the ball early. Worked back into it but ultimately cost ourselves a win (which we are now ruing) due to the start. Players did not learn from round 1. Teachable moment number 2.

R3: Came out with fantastic intensity and effort against a good time on their home deck. Got the 4 points, despite a flat finish (which I think was less intensity based but more about losing structure and not knowing how to seal the deal). This should have provided the players with the positive affirmation that if you bring the intensity you can beat anyone.

R4: Ditto to round 3. Came out with great intensity and dominated Essendon** in every relevant stat under the sun. Should have won by 3-4 goals but our execution let us down on the night. Still won so should again provide positive affirmation as to the benefits of playing with intensity.

R5: Carbon copy of rounds 1 and 2. Did not show up with any intensity against the Saints. Smacked around the ball early again. Worked back into it but too little, too late. Teachable moment number 3.

R6: Came with 4 quarters of great intensity against the Dogs. Best win I’ve seen in a long time. Should be the benchmark and provide again positive affirmation of what we can achieve when we play with hunger and intensity.

R7: Thought the intensity was there against Port. Lost largely due to some poor execution late and also Port are just a quality side. There’s no shame in losing to better sides if we bring the intensity - I can live with that because then it’s all about execution and talent. We are continuing to improve both of those facets of our game.

R8: Great intensity vs North for a quarter. Second quarter dropped the intensity and let a struggling team back into the game. Had to fight it out in the second half but ultimately got over the line. Teachable moment number 4 - if you drop the intensity you can let even the most out of form team in the competition back into a game.

R9: Great intensity early (absolutely smashed them in the contested ball early). Then completely dropped the intensity for the rest of the game and lost easily (by the end of the game we’d been smashed in overall contested ball). Teachable moment number 5.

I’m hoping this fluctuation and inability to learn from mistakes is just the hallmarks of a team trying to find its way, especially when coming off years of losing. However, we need to start rectifying this issue ASAP because the longer it goes on, the harder it becomes to kick the habit. The message must be drilled in that we play 4 intense quarters per week. Anything less can’t be accepted if we want to be a premiership contender. The contenders generally have a few howlers a year where the intensity isn’t up to standard. We’ve had 4 out of 9 games where a lack of intensity has cost us a win or a chance at winning (Richmond, Melbourne, St Kilda and Hawthorn) and another one where it almost cost us a win against a side on its knees (North).



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:10 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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bluechampion wrote:
In relation to Dow, it's not just that injury has prevented him from getting a clear run at it, it's also that Martin has come in and taken his position. Last year Dow played mostly half-forward with spells on the ball, just as Martin is this year.


Good point.

So Dow has to work damn hard to break the door down: that's life in an up and coming team.

Even when the oldies retire (Simmo Betts Murph), Dow will have plenty of competition for a spot from Fisher, OBrien, Philp, Stocker, Kemp, Ramsay....let alone new players acquired from FA/Trade.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:14 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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This game has its positives for the players and the coaches. For the past few weeks, we've been allowed to create space ahead of the kicker on slow plays and chip the ball up the field before getting it deep inside 50. After quarter time, Clarko took away that space and we struggled to counter it. It's better we find a way to work our way through these tactics now than later in the season. For the first time, Teague was significantly challenged strategically. Really, he didn't have an answer for it, or if he did, we weren't able to implement.
Let's see him and his crew earn their money and come up with some counter strategies. As for the players, I thought we lacked leadership on the day. Cripps tried to do it all himself and Doc is struggling to impact getting tagged as a half back. It's a good challenge for those two as well.
Once we fell off the rails, no one was able to arrest the momentum back.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:42 pm 
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John Nicholls
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bondiblue wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
In relation to Dow, it's not just that injury has prevented him from getting a clear run at it, it's also that Martin has come in and taken his position. Last year Dow played mostly half-forward with spells on the ball, just as Martin is this year.


Good point.

So Dow has to work damn hard to break the door down: that's life in an up and coming team.

Even when the oldies retire (Simmo Betts Murph), Dow will have plenty of competition for a spot from Fisher, OBrien, Philp, Stocker, Kemp, Ramsay....let alone new players acquired from FA/Trade.


I'm thinking Dow's best bet will be as an E Curnow style run-with specialist (replacing Ed when the time comes, or if he's injured)

1. Dow is not a high possession getter - this will take him to the ball (and help him learn where the hotspots are)
2. Notice that alot of Ed's kicks are high pressure, clear the ball forward, types of kicks. Or long to contest. He's not a short passing player for the most part because his disposal is not the greatest
3. He has the natural aerobic capacity, unlike say Stocker
4. His burst speed (he's got wheels, not unlike Cunners) means he can close down his opponent to lay tackles and also open up play if the ball falls his way

His strengths are not as an extractor, nor a playmaker, nor a goalkicker.

High price to pay for him at that spot in the draft, but he could be valuable if he's played in the right role and given the appropriate instruction.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:44 pm 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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