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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:01 am 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:48 pm
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On the plus side, my post-match depression should have dissipated by tomorrow allowing for a more relaxing weekend.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:09 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Location: Melbourne
Maybe Melbourne, Geelong and Essendon** aren’t as good as we think.
Maybe St Kilda is better than we think.
Maybe we aren’t as good as we think.
Maybe we think too much. :smoking:

Just do!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:57 am 
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Adrian Gallagher

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:56 pm
Posts: 84
Blue Sombrero wrote:
dane wrote:
5 days is a long time on TC.

Post of the thread so far.
We played pretty badly and came out slowly again. Worst of all was that Levi went OOB and Philp missed a sitter early and just like that w were down four or five.
The umpiring was shit but not biased IMO. They should have paid a lot more HTB and as usual there was the bevy of soft 50s against us but the worst thing for me is the way they just can't measure out 15 metres in their tiny brains. If they force players to kick the footy 15 metres, both sides will find it harder to zone off. These dinky 8 metre marks slow the game down and inflate the stats, not to mention allowing a team (tonight it was StK) to control the footy. We had our share of them, including the 9 metre pass from Cripps to Martin towards the end.

People crucifying Jones for making a couple of bad turnovers are short sighted. He often opens up the field like that and tonight he missed two. It was left to him because Doc was tagged out of the game. Murphy giving away two stupid fifties was worse.
People crucifying Plow don't see the good things he does. Tonight he had his obligatory free against for holding but it was obvious as usual that both players were holding each other.
Willo slipped over a couple of times and went on his right foot twice. Drop him for that as well.

The midfield was beaten. Pitonett was beaten. OK. He got beaten. Steele held Cripps all night. At one stage he had his back to the stoppage and was holding him off the contest but the umpire was bouncing the ball and couldn't see. Not his fault. There are two other umpires out there, though and one or both of them should be tasked to look for illegal holding against Cripps, Selwood, Danger, Fyfe and so on. Tagging is fine but why are the umpires busily looking along the line to make sure nobody puts a toe over it before the ball is bounced? Cripps has lost his main weapon as well. He needs to put back those few kilos he lost. Ed is a warrior and one of the best run with players in the comp. He is always going to give away a free or two and when he racks up a few possies, its a bonus. Setterfield is starting to find his feet, Cunningham the same. I have said it here before but unless a player gets the Brownlow votes, TC want him dropped the following week.

For me, the big issue is the forward structure and the way we go inside 50. It starts when the ball is down the other end. We ask our forwards to go into the defensive half of the ground and then try and get back if there is a turnover. Tonight, that resulted in allowing the StK backs to form a line of three along our F50 behind our closest forward. So what? It means they get there faster and also that they are all able to follow the play across the field with no opponent. It's madness. If we put Harry in the goalsquare and tell him to stay there, straight away, he has someone manning him up and another defender in the hole in front of him. If he never gets a kick it doesn't matter. He didn't get one tonight anyway. The secret of having three tall forwards was revealed in Geelong. It hasn't changed since footy was invented. They lead to different parts of the ground and make the backs accountable. Not like tonight where they just got in each other's way. You only had to look at StK. King playing deep made Weitering stay on him and when he led, Weitering was behind him. Just like we did against Geelong.

OK we lost but the list is the same list that won last week and the week before and almost the week before that. Bondi likes the list and I think it's almost there. It's the mindset of the players. People on here say it all the time.

"They have to come to play."

It's as simple as that. If we turn up to beat Geelong or Essendon** or Collingwood once a year it isn't enough. The good teams come to play every week and that's the Teague problem. Once he gets that sorted, the wins will come. And when they do, Dane's TC pendulum will swing back the other way.

Martin played a gutsy game.

I would drop Harry for next week. He isn't interested or if he is, he doesn't show it. Bring in TDK or Kennedy.
Philp isn't ready. He's had a taste, now drop him and tell him where he has to get better. He is supposed to be quick. He is supposed to be hard at it. I haven't seen either of those qualities in him so far. When he kicked his first goal for the club, nobody got around him, just a few who were nearby and that was half-hearted. That might be because he torched three sitters first.
The rest stay.
No idea who we play next week or where but Teague has his work cut out. We were percentage off top 6 yesterday and a win would have put us on the fringe of the 8. A win was super important but it wasn't enough motivation to turn up early.


Stop making so much sense ... you don't belong here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:19 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Coburg
My thoughts:

1) were our boys mentally buggered? 3 close ones drained them? Some of the things Casboult and others did just seemed as if they were too @#$%&! buggered.
2) McGovern or Harry not McGovern and Harry.
3) Can we give De Koning a go, please.
4) I'd drop Simmo Newnes McGovern (or Harry) and Philip
5) I'd play O'Brien/Kennedy/Fisher/Stocker/SOS and De Koning
6) Really happy with Martin's game, loved that Pitto tried all night (though clearly beaten) thought Weiters and Jones fought back into the contest, thought we had shit run tonight out of the backline. I thought Plow was good and same with SPS.
7) Doc and Cripps - two best players were taken out of the game in the first half and apart from Martin no one else stood up.
8) Tackling - okay we were beaten but couldn't we at lest just tackle tackle tackle. Too few do the hard work in this team.

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Last edited by dannyboy on Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:20 am 
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Bruce Doull
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The game was won and lost in the midfield, everything else is secondary. Pittonet was slaughtered in the ruck, Cripps was held (both figuratively and literally) and nobody was able to get a clean centre clearance.

Our forwards and defenders are always going to look like they played shit when the opposition doubles the inside 50 count. I can even almost forgive Jones his couple of failed switches of play because when you're that far behind you're never going to catch up by playing it safe. The one knock I do have on our forwards particularly is that I have zero confidence when anyone lines up for a set shot unless they're at the top of the square, and even then I want to look away.

I'm not going to blame the umpires for the loss, but they've been particularly shitful this season, just so damn inconsistent. A clumsy spoil is worth a 50 one minute, while getting pushed over after marking isn't the next. A guy gets tackled and simply drops the ball then the next bloke to pick it up gets pinged when he's wrapped up immediately and is physically unable to attempt to dispose. The in the back rule is a complete shitshow too, the whistle blows and you expect a free for a shove but it's instead paid a mark. Yuck.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:22 am 
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John James
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dannyboy wrote:
My thoughts:

1) were our boys mentally buggered? 3 close ones drained them? Some of the things Casboult and others did just seemed as if they were too @#$%&! buggered.
2) McGovern or Harry not McGovern and Harry.
3) Can we give De Koning a go, please.
4) I'd drop Simmo Newnes McGovern (or Harry) and Philip
5) I'd play O'Brien/Kennedy/Fisher/Stocker/SOS and De Koning
6) Really happy with Martin's game, loved that Pitto tried all night (though clearly beaten) thought Weiters and Jones fought back into the contest, thought we had shit run tonight out of the backline. I thought Plow was good and same with SPS.
7) Doc and Cripps - two best players were taken out of the game in the first half and apart from Martin no one else stood up.
8) Tackling - okay we were beaten but couldn't we at lest just tackle tackle tackle. Too few do the hard work in this team.

:thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:15 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 865
Rexy wrote:
Haven’t watched the game and probably won’t bother now but I wonder if some of the boys had to move house yesterday...?
Might explain a few things. Getting organised for a move interstate might have been a distraction as well...?

This is a plausible explanation for why they seemed so sluggish and out of sorts for so long. They just seemed "not there" for too much of the game.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:18 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 7640
Must have moved house 3 times in first 5 rounds maybe :smoking: or maybe just an immature group mentally who tease supporters and when it gets tough go missing


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:25 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 865
Blue Sombrero wrote:
dane wrote:
5 days is a long time on TC.

Post of the thread so far.

The umpiring was shit but not biased IMO. They should have paid a lot more HTB and as usual there was the bevy of soft 50s against us but the worst thing for me is the way they just can't measure out 15 metres in their tiny brains. If they force players to kick the footy 15 metres, both sides will find it harder to zone off. These dinky 8 metre marks slow the game down and inflate the stats, not to mention allowing a team (tonight it was StK) to control the footy. We had our share of them, including the 9 metre pass from Cripps to Martin towards the end.

It wasn't consciously biased but as has been the case for too many years, we got the worst of the umpiring at the same time as we played our worst footy, thus increasing the gap.
Thank Clarkson for two free kicks against Curnow: one for incorrect disposal (he let the ball spill out when gang tackled) and one for not making a genuine attempt (he held on to the ball when gang tackled in response to the earlier free). We just don't need that crap as were are not yet good enough to overcome it.
Kick distance: On the Couch showed some clips this week in which they measured a bunch of short kicks in Tiges v Saints game that were paid marks: usually 11 metres. Our game was worse in terms of distance and the number of times. It's not good enough from the umpiring department.
And it doesn't improve the footy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:33 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 865
Great post and analysis Blue Sombrero!

I also noticed:
- we often misread the ball flight so ran underneath marks
- all of our talls (esp Pitt, Levi, H and Gov) competed against each other for marks and effectively spoiled each other on a number of occasions (definitely not Aints defenders)
- some crucial missed passes in the middle of the ground
- tackling poor again (one Gov bump!!!)

Wojee you are right to point out that getting beaten in the midfield hurt us at both ends.

What a terrible, frustrating night. Again.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:41 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
dannyboy wrote:
My thoughts:

1) were our boys mentally buggered? 3 close ones drained them? Some of the things Casboult and others did just seemed as if they were too @#$%&! buggered.
2) McGovern or Harry not McGovern and Harry.
3) Can we give De Koning a go, please.
4) I'd drop Simmo Newnes McGovern (or Harry) and Philip
5) I'd play O'Brien/Kennedy/Fisher/Stocker/SOS and De Koning
6) Really happy with Martin's game, loved that Pitto tried all night (though clearly beaten) thought Weiters and Jones fought back into the contest, thought we had shit run tonight out of the backline. I thought Plow was good and same with SPS.
7) Doc and Cripps - two best players were taken out of the game in the first half and apart from Martin no one else stood up.
8) Tackling - okay we were beaten but couldn't we at lest just tackle tackle tackle. Too few do the hard work in this team.

We are pretty easy to play against
As you said take out our two best players and that’s it
Essendon* allowed Docherty to do what he liked last week.
Cripps concerns. Looks stuffed at the moment. But he fought it out unlike some others. Very interesting 2021 for Cripper and the club with his contract up and free agency
I would play all players on the list. See what they bring to the table. Teague has nothing to lose with the way this year is going on an off the field.
H needs a fresh start. Play him on ball in defence in scratch matches anywhere but deep forward.
When Mc Govern’s five year contract is up his 5 minute highlight reel will be fantastic but his output overall is likely to be poor . Just like it was at the Crows
And Setters
Sorry to sound like a broken record he was a big kid at TAC level. That’s why he was a star there. Excellent third quarter. Hardly touched it the other 3. He hasn’t physically got any bigger( like many of our players) from his junior days.
Agree on DeKoning. Should be given a month of senior footy for McKay


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:04 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:55 pm
Posts: 11514
Location: Brisbane
Can someone please explain why a 50m penalty was given against McKay in the first quarter?

I think it relates to 18.2(f), but I'm quite sure the mark had not yet been awarded when Harry supposedly made high contact.





FIFTY METRE PENALTY
18.1 SPIRIT AND INTENTION

After a Mark or Free Kick has been awarded to a Player, a Fifty Metre Penalty will be awarded against the opposing Team that unduly delays or impedes the play, or behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner.


18.2 WHEN IMPOSED

Where a field Umpire has awarded a Mark or Free Kick to a Player, the field Umpire shall also award a Fifty Metre Penalty in favour of that Player if the field Umpire is of the opinion that any Player or Official from the opposing Team:
(a) has encroached The Mark;
(b) when in the immediate contest, unreasonably holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick;
(c) when not in the immediate contest, holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick;
(d) enters or does not clear the Protected Area, except when the Player is accompanying or following within two metres of their opponent;
(e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the Player awarded the Mark or Free Kick; or
(f) engages in any other conduct for which a Free Kick would ordinarily be awarded.




https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/2019%20Laws%20of%20Australian%20Football.pdf

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Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:06 am 
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Ken Hunter
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It will be interesting to see how Teague responds

it may be that a) he & others knew our boys were buggered so not many changes (say Philip out for Fish)

or b) he is pissed off and ditches McKay, McGovern, Newnes, Simmo and Philip (just not ready yet)

I would go with B but I am only an observer with no facts about what is really happening with this team.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:08 am 
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Ken Hunter
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BigGartos wrote:
Kick distance: On the Couch showed some clips this week in which they measured a bunch of short kicks in Tiges v Saints game that were paid marks: usually 11 metres. Our game was worse in terms of distance and the number of times. It's not good enough from the umpiring department.
And it doesn't improve the footy.





15m kick distance does not match 15m running with the ball distance.

_________________
THEY LIKE TO SEND UP!!!!!!!!

Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:10 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 1071
Our congested forward line. As others have said, so often we have the ball kicked to a static pack of players. I dunno, I'm just another arm chair expert but, I'd like to see a bit of run and spread from the forwards. A big guy on the lead with the ball put out in front of him is damn hard to out mark, and anyone who drops into the hole should pay the price.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:14 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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bluedog wrote:
Can someone please explain why a 50m penalty was given against McKay in the first quarter?

I think it relates to 18.2(f), but I'm quite sure the mark had not yet been awarded when Harry supposedly made high contact.





FIFTY METRE PENALTY
18.1 SPIRIT AND INTENTION

After a Mark or Free Kick has been awarded to a Player, a Fifty Metre Penalty will be awarded against the opposing Team that unduly delays or impedes the play, or behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner.


18.2 WHEN IMPOSED

Where a field Umpire has awarded a Mark or Free Kick to a Player, the field Umpire shall also award a Fifty Metre Penalty in favour of that Player if the field Umpire is of the opinion that any Player or Official from the opposing Team:
(a) has encroached The Mark;
(b) when in the immediate contest, unreasonably holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick; Dangerfield special
(c) when not in the immediate contest, holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick; Most teams do this
(d) enters or does not clear the Protected Area, except when the Player is accompanying or following within two metres of their opponent;
(e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the Player awarded the Mark or Free Kick; Doesn't include asking the umpire whose kick it is or asking where the mark is a coupe of times. or
(f) engages in any other conduct for which a Free Kick would ordinarily be awarded.




https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/2019%20Laws%20of%20Australian%20Football.pdf

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:46 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 865
bluedog wrote:
Can someone please explain why a 50m penalty was given against McKay in the first quarter?

I think it relates to 18.2(f), but I'm quite sure the mark had not yet been awarded when Harry supposedly made high contact.


FIFTY METRE PENALTY
18.1 SPIRIT AND INTENTION

After a Mark or Free Kick has been awarded to a Player, a Fifty Metre Penalty will be awarded against the opposing Team that unduly delays or impedes the play, or behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner.

18.2 WHEN IMPOSED
Where a field Umpire has awarded a Mark or Free Kick to a Player, the field Umpire shall also award a Fifty Metre Penalty in favour of that Player if the field Umpire is of the opinion that any Player or Official from the opposing Team:
(a) has encroached The Mark;
(b) when in the immediate contest, unreasonably holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick;
(c) when not in the immediate contest, holds a Player after that Player has Marked the football or been awarded a Free Kick;
(d) enters or does not clear the Protected Area, except when the Player is accompanying or following within two metres of their opponent;
(e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the Player awarded the Mark or Free Kick; or
(f) engages in any other conduct for which a Free Kick would ordinarily be awarded.

https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/2019%20Laws%20of%20Australian%20Football.pdf


The reason is most likely f) as you say.
Harry swung his arm aggressively during the contest; he basically didn't make contact and it looked a fraction late so the umpire panicked and paid 50. Should not have been 50. [The initial view looks bad, the reverse angle view looks fine: sadly, the umpire was on that side and still paid it. One of the features of VFL umpires is paying frees they think they see or that they have been told they have to pay...]
Another helpful intervention from the umps...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:50 am 
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John James

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:13 pm
Posts: 697
I loved the one where Harry went flying forward out of a pack like he'd been pushed out and got paid a free aginst him for holding the man.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:58 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3448
dannyboy wrote:
My thoughts:

1) were our boys mentally buggered? 3 close ones drained them? Some of the things Casboult and others did just seemed as if they were too @#$%&! buggered.
2) McGovern or Harry not McGovern and Harry.
3) Can we give De Koning a go, please.
4) I'd drop Simmo Newnes McGovern (or Harry) and Philip
5) I'd play O'Brien/Kennedy/Fisher/Stocker/SOS and De Koning
6) Really happy with Martin's game, loved that Pitto tried all night (though clearly beaten) thought Weiters and Jones fought back into the contest, thought we had shit run tonight out of the backline. I thought Plow was good and same with SPS.
7) Doc and Cripps - two best players were taken out of the game in the first half and apart from Martin no one else stood up.
8) Tackling - okay we were beaten but couldn't we at lest just tackle tackle tackle. Too few do the hard work in this team.


1) Not sure...slow start syndrome for mine continues without signs of abating
2) Maybe - unless McGovern can find a new position
3) Yes! (this might force the change in point (2))
4) Reckon Philp improved last night. Happy to give him a few more games...reckon his trajectory will be steep. The others I tend to agree with
5) Yes!
6) SPS can be the classic centreman; receiving from defenders and pinpointing passes to our forwards...the midfield 'architect'
7) Yes
8) Yes yes yes...if you watch how Rich tackle; the shortest distance between two people is a straight line. Rich over the last few years do not spend one nanosecond hesitating...they CHARGE in a straight line at full tilt and have their arms open just before the tackle so that as they swing their arms in to tackle, there is MOMENTUM...makes the tackle more effective. Last night I saw Walsh take a half a second to decide whether to tackle and then the tackle was virtually non-existent. Even if you're lightly built, the physics of momentum can be your friend...don't hesitate, charge in a straight line and swing arms in at speed

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:59 am 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:57 pm
Posts: 452
Location: next to you in the outer
We need to do A Pauline Hanson with the umpiring department.
Please explain? Get them in. They cost us crucial momentum and goals and as has been mentioned we are not good enough to combat their constant intervention especially for 50/50 decisions.


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