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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
camel wrote:
Two questions:
1. Wasn't the intention of free agency to allow the mid-tier players to move for better opportunity at getting games? (But the result has been more A-grade talent moving than expected.)
2. Re freedom of movement/choice of employer, that's a fair comment, so do we accept that free agency is a compromise to an already flawed system, or do we look to shelve the draft and current recruiting systems and build a new system from the ground up. And if so, what?


:thumbsup:

If so what? Don't commit to a system that is flawed till it is nailed and fits in with Australia's egalitarian outlook, not the US market forces where the mighty dollar rules everything.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
Anyway, I came on here to say I'm rapt to get Saad and Williams.....really rapt.

BUT

Our focus has been to attract bonafide mids and we are trying to get Oliver. If we put all our eggs into Oliver and wait for dees to give the green light we miss out on Dunkley and whichever bonafide mid is out there.

We didnt need Caldwell. He's another kid. We have plenty of those and some will turn out just fine (if we don't trade them) eg Dow, Stocker, Kemp, Philp

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:54 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10058
TheSwan wrote:
Personally, I don't see the appeal with Owies. What am I missing?


Agree. Must be something that we are missing. Honey however has something.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:07 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
SurreyBlue wrote:
TheSwan wrote:
Personally, I don't see the appeal with Owies. What am I missing?


Agree. Must be something that we are missing. Honey however has something.


Honey is another story.

He is the player I want given games this year, and quietly, Stocker and Philp.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:01 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3280
The big list management questions we need answered:

McGovern - where is he at? Has he fallen off the radar to the point where he is simply a tall(ish) back-up utility? The next cab off the rank if there's an injury to a KPP? If he and we are happy with that, then so be it. If not... if he wants more game time or if we think he has no future... do you see if anyone else wants him?

No. 1 Ruck - Who is it? We don't have to answer this immediately, but in terms of team balance we need to make a decision. The extravagant publicity behind DeKoning's re-signing suggests he's viewed as no. 1 with Pittonet as no. 2. But they have not yet proven they can play together effectively, so for team balance reasons we have to decide who gets first crack.

Half-back line: Out: Simpson, In: Saad? Newman? Marchbank? Stocker? O'Brien? We played a pretty settled back 7 in 2020. Who slots in there in 2021?

Midfield: So we add Williams... who goes out? When do Dow and Philp and O'Brien and... Kennedy and Cunnignham, etc. get a chance? The automatic selections for the midfield are Cripps, Walsh... and then it's up for grabs.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:59 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 22924
Location: Bondi Beach
bluechampion wrote:
The big list management questions we need answered:

McGovern - where is he at? Has he fallen off the radar to the point where he is simply a tall(ish) back-up utility? The next cab off the rank if there's an injury to a KPP? If he and we are happy with that, then so be it. If not... if he wants more game time or if we think he has no future... do you see if anyone else wants him?

No. 1 Ruck - Who is it? We don't have to answer this immediately, but in terms of team balance we need to make a decision. The extravagant publicity behind DeKoning's re-signing suggests he's viewed as no. 1 with Pittonet as no. 2. But they have not yet proven they can play together effectively, so for team balance reasons we have to decide who gets first crack.

Half-back line: Out: Simpson, In: Saad? Newman? Marchbank? Stocker? O'Brien? We played a pretty settled back 7 in 2020. Who slots in there in 2021?

Midfield: So we add Williams... who goes out? When do Dow and Philp and O'Brien and... Kennedy and Cunnignham, etc. get a chance? The automatic selections for the midfield are Cripps, Walsh... and then it's up for grabs.


A lot of questions for a team on the rise, with a plethora of First round picks and now a Destination club.

Sounds good, but as you say, the chemistry must be created for a winning formula.

I think SOS confirmed what the media and every Carlton supporter says that Teague gifted Gov games he didn't deserve. If Teague continues down this path, if Gov doesn't "get a move on" with his output/ form, as SOS suggested then Teague is spart of the problem, and thee heat will come. I'm expecting Gov to be embarrassed and will turn this around. If not, then he can sit in the stands whilst we look for a new suitor.

There's only 22 spots. At some stage during the season, whether its from injury or form, Teague has to give games to peripheral players as part of their development.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:29 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
Posts: 836
I disagree with that.

Play the best 22. Players should be fighting for spots in the side. We should be winning the reserves gf as well as the gf if we are going to be a serious threat.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:37 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 2450
bondiblue wrote:
bluechampion wrote:
The big list management questions we need answered:

McGovern - where is he at? Has he fallen off the radar to the point where he is simply a tall(ish) back-up utility? The next cab off the rank if there's an injury to a KPP? If he and we are happy with that, then so be it. If not... if he wants more game time or if we think he has no future... do you see if anyone else wants him?

No. 1 Ruck - Who is it? We don't have to answer this immediately, but in terms of team balance we need to make a decision. The extravagant publicity behind DeKoning's re-signing suggests he's viewed as no. 1 with Pittonet as no. 2. But they have not yet proven they can play together effectively, so for team balance reasons we have to decide who gets first crack.

Half-back line: Out: Simpson, In: Saad? Newman? Marchbank? Stocker? O'Brien? We played a pretty settled back 7 in 2020. Who slots in there in 2021?

Midfield: So we add Williams... who goes out? When do Dow and Philp and O'Brien and... Kennedy and Cunnignham, etc. get a chance? The automatic selections for the midfield are Cripps, Walsh... and then it's up for grabs.


A lot of questions for a team on the rise, with a plethora of First round picks and now a Destination club.

Sounds good, but as you say, the chemistry must be created for a winning formula.

I think SOS confirmed what the media and every Carlton supporter says that Teague gifted Gov games he didn't deserve. If Teague continues down this path, if Gov doesn't "get a move on" with his output/ form, as SOS suggested then Teague is spart of the problem, and thee heat will come. I'm expecting Gov to be embarrassed and will turn this around. If not, then he can sit in the stands whilst we look for a new suitor.

There's only 22 spots. At some stage during the season, whether its from injury or form, Teague has to give games to peripheral players as part of their development.



I think if JSOS had been fit and able to play this year, he would have played at the expense of Gov given his poor form.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:00 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1581
ScottSaunders2 wrote:
I disagree with that.

Play the best 22. Players should be fighting for spots in the side. We should be winning the reserves gf as well as the gf if we are going to be a serious threat.


Spot on, and I agree, that’s the way it’s always been strong starting team & 2 nds and players competing for a place in the 1sts.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:14 am 
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Banned

Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm
Posts: 2333
I think Setters upside will be huge next season. He was an absolute monster on the tackle front this season and found alot of the ball I think his upside will continue.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1890
Player development and a system is the key if we want to be successful

Richmond have it in spades

They hunt in packs and run you off your feet

It’s not rocket science

Really need to develop a hard edge

It’s why players like Dow, O’Brien & SOS are concerns

Have little intensity


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:04 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Location: Kaloyasena
Personnel is just one part of it - but the work ethic and mental edge is what we lack severely.


We laud Geelong as an organisation but Richmond have taken it to another level.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:00 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
Yesterday’s Grand Final once again highlights the importance of late picks and the rookie draft and recruiting that looks at the lower leagues
Whilst Martin is simply a legend now
Short
Broad
Baker Pickett were simply magnificent
Graham
Castagna
Lambert Grimes played there Roles

As I say every year the best bottom 6 players win the flag
Martin wouldn’t of kicked those amazing goals if it weren’t for his 21 teammates


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:43 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1890
keogh wrote:
Yesterday’s Grand Final once again highlights the importance of late picks and the rookie draft and recruiting that looks at the lower leagues
Whilst Martin is simply a legend now
Short
Broad
Baker Pickett were simply magnificent
Graham
Castagna
Lambert Grimes played there Roles

As I say every year the best bottom 6 players win the flag
Martin wouldn’t of kicked those amazing goals if it weren’t for his 21 teammates


There is more to it than that

Some of those players at Carlton don’t make much difference under our culture and player development system

Biggest issues for Carlton are a loser culture, player development and lack of a system that is drilled into each player on the list

It’s the reason why Richmond can easily cover injuries and still thrive


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:05 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:39 pm
Posts: 15848
WOW wrote:
Player development and a system is the key if we want to be successful

Richmond have it in spades

They hunt in packs and run you off your feet

It’s not rocket science

Really need to develop a hard edge

It’s why players like Dow, O’Brien & SOS are concerns

Have little intensity


tough on SOS

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:12 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
WOW wrote:
keogh wrote:
Yesterday’s Grand Final once again highlights the importance of late picks and the rookie draft and recruiting that looks at the lower leagues
Whilst Martin is simply a legend now
Short
Broad
Baker Pickett were simply magnificent
Graham
Castagna
Lambert Grimes played there Roles

As I say every year the best bottom 6 players win the flag
Martin wouldn’t of kicked those amazing goals if it weren’t for his 21 teammates


There is more to it than that

Some of those players at Carlton don’t make much difference under our culture and player development system

Biggest issues for Carlton are a loser culture, player development and lack of a system that is drilled into each player on the list

It’s the reason why Richmond can easily cover injuries and still thrive


I think there is some truth to what you say but Matthew Clarke and his team have the ability to find players who other clubs miss
Take Baker
Running around for Subiaco. Overlooked because of his size.
Aarts
Shol
Soldo
Eggmolesse-Smith
Ross
All good players who can’t get a game

SOSs biggest blunder was recruiting shit players from other AFL clubs
It’s similar to 2012
Our top players are excellent. After that it drops away. You can’t win flags with poor blinkered narrow minded recruiting.

Culture should be a given but that stems from the top
When you have a board like ours that won’t happen
As for Geelong
Similar story. If it wasn’t for Stephen Wells they would never be up there every year.

When will we start recruiting better?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:22 am 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3448
AGRO wrote:
Personnel is just one part of it - but the work ethic and mental edge is what we lack severely.


We laud Geelong as an organisation but Richmond have taken it to another level.


There are 2 simple things that Rich have perfected that you could drum into an U15 team...unfortunately, with the science of football these days, it's not sexy:

1. If you're chasing the ball and you know you're going to get tackled, kick it off the ground until the next contest...it does my head in when players have an opponent up their backside and still try to bend down to pick up the ball when they know they'll be tackled. Soccer it, tap it, palm it, punch it, just take it to another contest (closer to goal) and give more times for the troops to arrive

2. Rich players around contest do not spectate; they look at who the most obvious next recipient of the ball will be and one/two of them have already beelined them to tackle. They don't corrall and they don't hesitate. Their momentum supports the effectiveness of the tackle. BANG...turnover

Regardless of what you think about Garry Lyon, he is 100% correct when he talks about getting that ball I25...defenders panic, mistakes are made and someone kicks the balll (except that bc the ball is just 20m from goal), a scoring opportunity presents itself

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:29 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1890
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
WOW wrote:
Player development and a system is the key if we want to be successful

Richmond have it in spades

They hunt in packs and run you off your feet

It’s not rocket science

Really need to develop a hard edge

It’s why players like Dow, O’Brien & SOS are concerns

Have little intensity


tough on SOS


I meant SPS

Although SOS is not in my good books at the moment (haha)


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:40 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5959
99prelim wrote:
AGRO wrote:
Personnel is just one part of it - but the work ethic and mental edge is what we lack severely.


We laud Geelong as an organisation but Richmond have taken it to another level.


There are 2 simple things that Rich have perfected that you could drum into an U15 team...unfortunately, with the science of football these days, it's not sexy:

1. If you're chasing the ball and you know you're going to get tackled, kick it off the ground until the next contest...it does my head in when players have an opponent up their backside and still try to bend down to pick up the ball when they know they'll be tackled. Soccer it, tap it, palm it, punch it, just take it to another contest (closer to goal) and give more times for the troops to arrive

2. Rich players around contest do not spectate; they look at who the most obvious next recipient of the ball will be and one/two of them have already beelined them to tackle. They don't corrall and they don't hesitate. Their momentum supports the effectiveness of the tackle. BANG...turnover

Regardless of what you think about Garry Lyon, he is 100% correct when he talks about getting that ball I25...defenders panic, mistakes are made and someone kicks the balll (except that bc the ball is just 20m from goal), a scoring opportunity presents itself

Right on baby


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:48 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 20967
Location: Missing Kouta
WOW wrote:
keogh wrote:
Yesterday’s Grand Final once again highlights the importance of late picks and the rookie draft and recruiting that looks at the lower leagues
Whilst Martin is simply a legend now
Short
Broad
Baker Pickett were simply magnificent
Graham
Castagna
Lambert Grimes played there Roles

As I say every year the best bottom 6 players win the flag
Martin wouldn’t of kicked those amazing goals if it weren’t for his 21 teammates


There is more to it than that

Some of those players at Carlton don’t make much difference under our culture and player development system

Biggest issues for Carlton are a loser culture, player development and lack of a system that is drilled into each player on the list

It’s the reason why Richmond can easily cover injuries and still thrive

This.

Grimes in our backline would be a whipping boy like Plowman if the ball was coming in lace out at speed. Rance wasn't the same player when Waite pantsed him in the 2013 finals. They've flicked the switch after we beat them in the final with Edwards, Grigg, Grimes , Riewoldt, etc. playing. Jamo owned Jack Riewoldt for years. Brandon Ellis and Grigg aren't hardnuts in anyone's eyes. It starts from the top with Hardwick introducing the mongrel and developing as a coach after they lost finals and missed finals after finishing 13th. They won the flag the next year.

The role players like Baker, Short, Graham, may already be on our list or coming in the next few years. We needed to added the top end class before recruiting these types. Martin would be a impact better option than these players if he was running around like Pickett or Castagna.


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