Our set plays haven't been good since we lost Paganite

We’re pretty good with the 15 metre short pass to the back pocket from the kick out.

Yeah I've never been as excited about our list as others on here... we have some very good players but as a group, I believe our list is nothing more than mid-table quality.

You can rattle off the players we targeted but did not get. Last year it was Coniglio and Papley... the year before who was it? The year before that?

Your Hawthorns, your Richmonds, your Geelongs, etc. they constantly land the big fish and are always competitive as a result. They are on a self-perpetuating upward spiral, enabled by a system that allows it. We are on a self-perpetuating downward spiral, hampered by a system that makes it especially hard to break out without massive concessions. Concessions we have constantly been denied.

We had to take a different approach by trading out what talent we had and bringing in youth. Massive risk - it relied upon nailing draft picks and investing heavily in development. We've nailed some, but missed others.

Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Bolton, Teague................. rearrange the deck chairs for some nice optics as the ship takes on water.

Fair points too.

Remember, Hawthorn got a priority pick (Hodge). Geelong got father-sons. Both also had their rebuilds done and dusted before the expansion clubs and compromised drafts, and just in time to make use of free agency (and the promise of success). I'm not sure our situation is comparable.

Richmond is probably a better comparison. Remember when we beat them in the elimination final...? It would be poignant to dissect what has happened since. They've gone from strength to strength.... we've descended into disfunction.

I have never thought this.
The list manager is (usually) told what types to recruit by the coach based on the projected game plan.
Nobody will ever convince me that SOS favoured his kids. He separated himself from those particular decisions.
Jack can play. He also has in spades what was lacking in the first quarter last weekend, desire and effort. No way he would have been standing around like Harry watching opposition players win the footy.
Ben we don't know about but one thing he does have, is the pressure of being a Silvagni that sits heavy on all of them. He will bring the same level of intent to the game that Serge had, that SOS had, Alex had and Jack has. Games are won by getting the footy and putting it through the sticks. In the first quarter we did neither.
SOS had a shit hand in a high stakes poker game. Everybody knows it's impossible to get a team off the bottom with one first rounder and one second rounder per year. The AFL knows it and that's why Richmond, Hawthorn, StK and nor GCS have their priority picks and in the case of GCS, draft ad zone concessions that everybody was a bit put out at but really didnt think would amount to anything in the long term. If they get into the top 10 this year and then get their priority pick this year and their academy players and their zone players, Eddie will start the complaints.
SOS never got any of that. He had to turn lead into gold. He had some wins and some losses and some we still don't know about.
Our development team has a lot to answer for as well. Russell will do well because he has the track record but how many of our players never developed or got worse before that?
Holman is playing better in the GCS. Gower is at least playing at the Dogs after not even getting a game for us.
We'd probably have Coniglio except the AFL deliberately intervened and now Cogs is getting paid partly outside the cap as an AFL ambassador or whatever it is.
I can never work out why SOS gets blamed for everything. As Carlton supporters we have always wanted instant gratification.
He didn't give us that. We don't really know what he gave us yet. Most of the recruits from the draft aren't shaving yet, let alone playing good footy. Let them develop before we crucify SOS. If he'd delivered Cogs, we'd look a lot better..... That's why Gil the dill stepped in. It's also why GCS didn't get their package until we jumped above them on the ladder.
Blame him. He can't stand the thought of a strong Carlton. When we're strong, we hold sway in the direction of the AFL decision making process, like Collingwood. That doesn't suit them.
End of rant.

I do agree with you that’s it’s tougher to succeed in undertaking a rebuild now than 15 years ago, given there are no more priority picks (unless you’re GC) and the talent pool is a bit thinner due to having 18 teams. However, the equation is still the same: gather and develop young talent and create a winning culture. I think it’s still doable and there’s now no choice but to make it happen, otherwise we’ll be in the doldrums for another decade.

On the hawthorn and Geelong point, for me, it’s not just the quality of talent they recruited, it’s the mentality of those guys. A win at all costs mentality that they developed together. For me, this is what’s currently missing. Are we a top 8 list? No, we’re not, but we have a mass of young talent coming through. Are we a bottom 4 list? Personally, no I think we’re better than that and, if we finish bottom 4, it will be only our mindset and attitude that puts us there. Maybe this is where we differ.

On the Richmond point, they did stagnate from 2013 to 2017 but they maintained their core group of guys who they invested at the draft: Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt, Rance etc. In my view, what was missing was that ruthlessness and attitude that they later developed.

The other elephant in the room is off field. All three of those clubs are ruthless off the field and, when this is combined with a ruthlessness on field, creates a mighty club. I’m no offield expert but it’s fair to say we aren’t near these clubs in that regard.

No.

Because there was none....

There was a debate about Cunningham and Dunkley...

There was a debate about Macreadie and Graham...

There was a debate about LOB and Richards....

There was many, many other debates,SOS won them all!

They weren’t really debates...

One of things Bolton bitterly complained about on his way out to Liddle, was not being provided enough mids, and a list manager not being interested in his requirements. It’s why our list has so many holes!!

It’s why SOS was sacked, nothing to do with his boys....

What a great post.

When Hawthorn started their rebuild in 2002 with Hodge, Roughie coming in, then Clarkson took the reigns in 2005 then recruited Buddy etc, he instilled in them one non negotiable: unsociable footy.

Clarkson drummed this culture of going in hard, verbalising, and being outright rude and pushing the laws to the limit. That mantra remains and was evident last night with the midfield's attack on the ball and he man.

Non of our coaches have mentioned unsociable footy. Pagan took over a dud, Ratten developed speed and a game plan around Judd, Mathouse was a wasted opportunity losing Eddie, Waite, Garlett, Robbo...gosh for a while there, the handful of ex Blues were kicking greater scores than the whole Carlton team nearly every weekend, then the total rebuild with SOS and Bolton with elite high draft picks with good manners, good values, good families, then Teague took over so the players can have some fun and enjoy their time on the park.

Wheres our unsociable hard nut finals footy style? It hasn't been part of the players development. We should be ruthless about being single minded about winning and smashing the opposition in the game of attrition.

Because there was none....

There was a debate about Cunningham and Dunkley...

There was a debate about Macreadie and Graham...

There was a debate about LOB and Richards....

There was many, many other debates,SOS won them all!

They weren’t really debates...

One of things Bolton bitterly complained about on his way out to Liddle, was not being provided enough mids, and a list manager not being interested in his requirements. It’s why our list has so many holes!!

It’s why SOS was sacked, nothing to do with his boys....

Fair points too.

Remember, Hawthorn got a priority pick (Hodge). Geelong got father-sons. Both also had their rebuilds done and dusted before the expansion clubs and compromised drafts, and just in time to make use of free agency (and the promise of success). I'm not sure our situation is comparable.

Richmond is probably a better comparison. Remember when we beat them in the elimination final...? It would be poignant to dissect what has happened since. They've gone from strength to strength.... we've descended into disfunction.

Rubbish!!

You post is typical of pointing the finger and redirection - ala CFC board and management.
The plan was set out and everyone agreed to the implementation unfortunately when it failed, as it was going too, the gun was pointed at SoS to buy more time. Gutless, two faced individuals.

There was a debate between Bolton and SoS regarding Charlie and his antics including the late drink drive implosion!! if you listen to a predraft discussion closely, you might even pick it with SoS backing in Charlie (even though the kid isn't named).

Anyway, Bolton complained about no experienced midfielders but he was all in on the plan from the outset and knew why we weren't able to get any through the door. He didn't like that we failed to land a experienced midfielder and was frustrated but who wasn't? Problem was every midfielder we went after, we didn't get, because of our on field progress. Bolton needed to redirect to try and save his job and did.