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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
So we're 4-6 and our next 2 games are against the team directly below us and the team directly above us. I think it's a bit early to put the cue in the rack.
Setterfield will be fine in the midfield. When Cripps needs a spell, he's the perfect replacement. We just need to put some speed in there with them. Instead of Cripps, Setterfield, Curnow together or Cripps Kennedy Curnow, Walsh or Dow or Fisher should be rotated through as the 3rd mid.
We're too one paced.



Exactly

Add some spice.

and when Cuningham is playing he too should see some midfield time to exploit his speed.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:10 pm 
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I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd write SPS off and insist that we put the likes of Honey through midfield. Surely you try the guy who's miles ahead of his peers developmentally - and who was drafted as a mid - before taking a punt on someone new who in all likelihood will need 2-3 years to get up to speed. It's a complete waste of the last few years if we ditch the likes of SPS.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GreatEx wrote:
I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd write SPS off and insist that we put the likes of Honey through midfield. Surely you try the guy who's miles ahead of his peers developmentally - and who was drafted as a mid - before taking a punt on someone new who in all likelihood will need 2-3 years to get up to speed. It's a complete waste of the last few years if we ditch the likes of SPS.

In better days who's to say he can't become a gun half forward rotating through the midfield?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:37 pm 
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He could be many things. What we do know is that his overall body of work is superior to all our other U23 mids, so giving up on him just because he's a more visible target for our frustration is the ultimate folly.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:46 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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GreatEx wrote:
I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd write SPS off and insist that we put the likes of Honey through midfield. Surely you try the guy who's miles ahead of his peers developmentally - and who was drafted as a mid - before taking a punt on someone new who in all likelihood will need 2-3 years to get up to speed. It's a complete waste of the last few years if we ditch the likes of SPS.


Agree 100%.

Its not SPS fault he has been pigeon holed at HBF, to stem the flow of ball that comes from a midfield group leaking more goals than any other midfield squad due to a lack of speed necessary for defensive running. We didn't draft him to play HBF, so if that's not working then put him in his rightful spot and develop him there: midfielder, play maker with poise and skills on both sides.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:16 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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I agree about changes Bondi and I think we need to move on from Teagues message of "go out and play to your strengths" which the players talk of.
The problem is most players think their strength is winning the ball but it's only role players like Ed who add holistic value.
IMHO, we should bring in Dow and tell him to burst with the ball if he wins possession but his role is equally to apply chase pressure on the opposition mids when they win it. The same with Fisher/Cuningham if they're in the rotation. Samo? I think he has the class but does he have the defensive chasing qualities? I have my doubts. He's good in close but can he apply quality defensive pressure when the opposition have the ball?
Tim Kelly was able to assess, steady and dispose without pressure too often on the weekend from centre bounces. That can't be an acceptable outcome for our midfield group. Roles need to be defined and have consequences attached to them.

We lost on the weekend because West Coast won 5 clear, consecutive centre clearances in the 3rd quarter win no pressure applied. That can't be accepted.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:44 pm 
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If is defence is his weakness, and I think we agree that it is, it's even more reason to take him out of the back line and put him up the ground. Whether that is in the actual midfield or as an outside player on the wing, it's a moot point but I would like to see him unshackled and have some poor bastard trying to close him down in space.
Every defensive error he makes where he is, is going to turn into a scoring opportunity. for the bad guys.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:29 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
I agree about changes Bondi and I think we need to move on from Teagues message of "go out and play to your strengths" which the players talk of.
The problem is most players think their strength is winning the ball but it's only role players like Ed who add holistic value.
IMHO, we should bring in Dow and tell him to burst with the ball if he wins possession but his role is equally to apply chase pressure on the opposition mids when they win it. The same with Fisher/Cuningham if they're in the rotation. Samo? I think he has the class but does he have the defensive chasing qualities? I have my doubts. He's good in close but can he apply quality defensive pressure when the opposition have the ball?
Tim Kelly was able to assess, steady and dispose without pressure too often on the weekend from centre bounces. That can't be an acceptable outcome for our midfield group. Roles need to be defined and have consequences attached to them.

We lost on the weekend because West Coast won 5 clear, consecutive centre clearances in the 3rd quarter win no pressure applied. That can't be accepted.


Umpiring bias aside, as I believe the WA umpires cost us the game before we even started, that 3rd quarter was a disaster. Watching Kelly get out of there with ease sickened me, as did the standard move of Nic Nat to Shuey which we have seen played out over and over again this year on tv, and highlighted by commentator before the game. Far too easy, and I dare say, careless.

I think roles should always be defined.
I think opposition tactics should be noted, understood and a plan on how they can be countered before they happen.
Doesn't look like ts happening at Carlton.

Just about every game we see a repeat of the same mistakes, including allowing 5-7 goal turnaround.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am 
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Geoff Southby
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bondiblue wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd write SPS off and insist that we put the likes of Honey through midfield. Surely you try the guy who's miles ahead of his peers developmentally - and who was drafted as a mid - before taking a punt on someone new who in all likelihood will need 2-3 years to get up to speed. It's a complete waste of the last few years if we ditch the likes of SPS.


Agree 100%.

Its not SPS fault he has been pigeon holed at HBF, to stem the flow of ball that comes from a midfield group leaking more goals than any other midfield squad due to a lack of speed necessary for defensive running. We didn't draft him to play HBF, so if that's not working then put him in his rightful spot and develop him there: midfielder, play maker with poise and skills on both sides.


I have been saying this for weeks now, SPS needs to be moved out of the backline. He's totally wasted flapping around back there, especially when we have other players who can play that role.
Cottrell looked the goods on the weekend and he can run, plus we have Marchbank coming back and for the output SPS has in the backline we could even bring back O'Brien.
However, I'd prefer to see him on the HFF rotating through the middle if necessary.
Make use of his skills going forward and excite him again with the possibility of kicking some goals, plus he could learn a lot from Eddie up there.
I wonder if they will make the move with Martin out for the next couple.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:03 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Sidefx wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
I cannot for the life of me understand why you'd write SPS off and insist that we put the likes of Honey through midfield. Surely you try the guy who's miles ahead of his peers developmentally - and who was drafted as a mid - before taking a punt on someone new who in all likelihood will need 2-3 years to get up to speed. It's a complete waste of the last few years if we ditch the likes of SPS.


Agree 100%.

Its not SPS fault he has been pigeon holed at HBF, to stem the flow of ball that comes from a midfield group leaking more goals than any other midfield squad due to a lack of speed necessary for defensive running. We didn't draft him to play HBF, so if that's not working then put him in his rightful spot and develop him there: midfielder, play maker with poise and skills on both sides.


I have been saying this for weeks now, SPS needs to be moved out of the backline. He's totally wasted flapping around back there, especially when we have other players who can play that role.
Cottrell looked the goods on the weekend and he can run, plus we have Marchbank coming back and for the output SPS has in the backline we could even bring back O'Brien.
However, I'd prefer to see him on the HFF rotating through the middle if necessary.
Make use of his skills going forward and excite him again with the possibility of kicking some goals, plus he could learn a lot from Eddie up there.
I wonder if they will make the move with Martin out for the next couple.


:thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:33 am 
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Pretty sure SPS is just doing his apprenticeship back there, ala Ratten if I remember correctly.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:37 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Lace Out wrote:
Pretty sure SPS is just doing his apprenticeship back there, ala Ratten if I remember correctly.

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If that's the case, then I'd say they're wasting everyones time.
He'd learn more about defensive pressure from Eddie than what he's doing at the moment and that opportunity is fading by the week.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Adam Chatfield wrote:
We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


Are Fisher and Cuningham the quicker smaller guys that can't get the ball?

Fisher's numbers in the middle have been good, before Teague and in the first half of round 1 before he got injured.

Dow turns 21 this year. He's had over 500 kicks and kicked 13.19, or something like that in 40 games. He is only going to improve, and he's quick. His stats are as good as the ones the media is singing their praises to in the Freo midfield. Interesting: perception vs reality, or we are hard task masters.

I think the main problem you alluded to is because we don't have the cattle to lay a defensive role in the midfield, and our classy young players are just that, and they need to be developed....and I don't think the adhoc 12 v 12 praccy games are condisive to development, well not the type our kids need.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:00 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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bondiblue wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


Are Fisher and Cuningham the quicker smaller guys that can't get the ball?

Fisher's numbers in the middle have been good, before Teague and in the first half of round 1 before he got injured.

Dow turns 21 this year. He's had over 500 kicks and kicked 13.19, or something like that in 40 games. He is only going to improve, and he's quick. His stats are as good as the ones the media is singing their praises to in the Freo midfield. Interesting: perception vs reality, or we are hard task masters.

I think the main problem you alluded to is because we don't have the cattle to lay a defensive role in the midfield, and our classy young players are just that, and they need to be developed....and I don't think the adhoc 12 v 12 praccy games are condisive to development, well not the type our kids need.



I agree. In his first year, Paddy Dow was averaging more contested possessions, clearances, inside 50's than players like Cerra, Brayshaw, Worpel, Jack Graham etc.
Yet many of those guys are now playing midfield and progressing. Why? Opportunity. Teague last year played the older guys to get wins on the board. I'm not overly critical of that (Although I posted concern at the time) but it will stifle development if it continues.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:18 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


Are Fisher and Cuningham the quicker smaller guys that can't get the ball?

Fisher's numbers in the middle have been good, before Teague and in the first half of round 1 before he got injured.

Dow turns 21 this year. He's had over 500 kicks and kicked 13.19, or something like that in 40 games. He is only going to improve, and he's quick. His stats are as good as the ones the media is singing their praises to in the Freo midfield. Interesting: perception vs reality, or we are hard task masters.

I think the main problem you alluded to is because we don't have the cattle to lay a defensive role in the midfield, and our classy young players are just that, and they need to be developed....and I don't think the adhoc 12 v 12 praccy games are condisive to development, well not the type our kids need.



I agree. In his first year, Paddy Dow was averaging more contested possessions, clearances, inside 50's than players like Cerra, Brayshaw, Worpel, Jack Graham etc.
Yet many of those guys are now playing midfield and progressing. Why? Opportunity. Teague last year played the older guys to get wins on the board. I'm not overly critical of that (Although I posted concern at the time) but it will stifle development if it continues.


That says it all.

Dow looks much bigger than round 1, and its not the new haircut which makes him look bigger, but it does make him look tougher than his school kid look.

I expect and have since his selection he will be in our starting midfield in Flag 17.
When we got Walsh and then saw what this kid can do at senior level, I thought with Cripps, there's the best mid group in the AFL in our next Flag.
I just expect another Flag, soon. Plenty of pieces to the puzzle have already been selected in this rebuild. We only need 22, and another 5-6 in reserve.
I expect Honey to be the big surprise packet, moreso than Stocker.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


Are Fisher and Cuningham the quicker smaller guys that can't get the ball?

Fisher's numbers in the middle have been good, before Teague and in the first half of round 1 before he got injured.

Dow turns 21 this year. He's had over 500 kicks and kicked 13.19, or something like that in 40 games. He is only going to improve, and he's quick. His stats are as good as the ones the media is singing their praises to in the Freo midfield. Interesting: perception vs reality, or we are hard task masters.

I think the main problem you alluded to is because we don't have the cattle to lay a defensive role in the midfield, and our classy young players are just that, and they need to be developed....and I don't think the adhoc 12 v 12 praccy games are condisive to development, well not the type our kids need.



I agree. In his first year, Paddy Dow was averaging more contested possessions, clearances, inside 50's than players like Cerra, Brayshaw, Worpel, Jack Graham etc.
Yet many of those guys are now playing midfield and progressing. Why? Opportunity. Teague last year played the older guys to get wins on the board. I'm not overly critical of that (Although I posted concern at the time) but it will stifle development if it continues.
How dare Teague put a side on the paddock to win.
What on earth was he thinking.
We have had 20 years of development it is time we started winning and putting the best side out there to get that win.
If Dow is good enough he will make.

If you watch them play they get into winning positions in games and don't know what to do when they ge there. That's because winning never mattered it was about "development "

Team needs to learn to win.
If players like Dow are good enough they will get their turn



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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It has to be a balanced approach. By all means play a team to win but you have to have development as well.
Last year we ran the older blokes into the ground. The midfield rotation consisted of 4 players. That's not sustainable nor smart.
Meanwhile Dow, Fisher etc were rotting away in the forward line. It sent their football backwards.
That's why Cerra, Brayshaw etc have gone past them.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
It has to be a balanced approach. By all means play a team to win but you have to have development as well.
Last year we ran the older blokes into the ground. The midfield rotation consisted of 4 players. That's not sustainable nor smart.
Meanwhile Dow, Fisher etc were rotting away in the forward line. It sent their football backwards.
That's why Cerra, Brayshaw etc have gone past them.
I don't necessarily disagree but we have to move past the development and learn how to win.
I know it sounds simplistic be it doesn't matter what lead we have we are gettable.
This has come about through 4 years of Bolton telling them winning doesn't matter. Teams know it doesn't matter how far we are in front we are beatable.
This has come about through 4 years of baby steps he will learn from that.
They need to develop a mongral attitude and get a lead and keep it.
You will never develop that whilst you are gifting players games and games in the engine room to enhance their development.
You stifle team development over individual and you never progress.
The Freo players may have gone past Dow because they were made to earn it and not just gifted time in the middle

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:26 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Blue Vain wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Adam Chatfield wrote:
We are still tinkering at the edges and figuring out what works best.

We are coming from a side which had gone 4-43 before Teague took over, so I think Teague is showing some loyalty to the guys who have at least got us to the point of being competitive.

I don’t agree with this whole throwing out the baby with the bathwater philosophy either, we are 4-6, not 0-10.

Injuries to McGovern and McKay have hurt us, and we do need more pace in the midfield, for sure.

Issue was when we’ve tried quicker smaller guys in the midfield we simply can’t get the ball at all, as we are out muscled. It’s possible the guys we need in there simply don’t exist on our list currently. Dow will get another go but has shown very little to this point.

I’d like Fisher and Cuningham running through there more and Kennedy can rest forward more as we know he is a good mark.

SPS in defence, I’m not a huge fan either.


Are Fisher and Cuningham the quicker smaller guys that can't get the ball?

Fisher's numbers in the middle have been good, before Teague and in the first half of round 1 before he got injured.

Dow turns 21 this year. He's had over 500 kicks and kicked 13.19, or something like that in 40 games. He is only going to improve, and he's quick. His stats are as good as the ones the media is singing their praises to in the Freo midfield. Interesting: perception vs reality, or we are hard task masters.

I think the main problem you alluded to is because we don't have the cattle to lay a defensive role in the midfield, and our classy young players are just that, and they need to be developed....and I don't think the adhoc 12 v 12 praccy games are condisive to development, well not the type our kids need.



I agree. In his first year, Paddy Dow was averaging more contested possessions, clearances, inside 50's than players like Cerra, Brayshaw, Worpel, Jack Graham etc.
Yet many of those guys are now playing midfield and progressing. Why? Opportunity. Teague last year played the older guys to get wins on the board. I'm not overly critical of that (Although I posted concern at the time) but it will stifle development if it continues.


SPS, Dow, and Fisher’s development as midfielders has already been stifled, they’ve missed over 20 games playing the role they were drafted for, and are best at...

The sooner they return to the midfield the better, these three with Walsh, are our best young mids... we also need to know what we have!

We have to give them every opportunity to develop as mids!


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