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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:54 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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doofdoof wrote:
a passmark relative to what? to your opinion? give us some examples...


Yes. I believe I prefaced part of that sentence with 'I personally think that...' That is usually a big clue to the reader that an opinion is coming.

doofdoof wrote:
if you grade it relative to drafts 2014 and prior it's an A+++++++


Many years ago I said to a bloke who ran a tennis academy on the Gold Coast - "You do realise most of these kids aren't going to be the next Maria Sharapova...it's just wealthy parents living vicariously through their kids" and he turned to me and said "One. I only need one to make it. The others don't matter. If one makes it - this place pays for itself 100 times over. And I'm considered a genius!"

So for Shane Rogers - Patrick Cripps is his 'one'. The others don't matter. And Shane Rogers is a genius!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:22 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:54 pm
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geeez... i missed the clue just like you missed that it was a rhetorical question

still, some examples of what constitutes better than a passmark would be nice


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:00 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Location: Kaloyasena
DocSherrin III wrote:
Do we need a GM List Manager & Strategy when we have a competent List Manager and the Strategy is somewhat flawed?

The whole list rebuild 'going too young' has been known for a while. Cain Liddle has made mention of his understanding of Carlton's position while he was still at Richmond. He's being polite. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K. Something's brewing. I can feel it in me bones. Someone should book Festival Hall. Only three things are certain - LoGiudice won't fall on his sword, SOS is stubborn and Chris Judd is still trying to figure it all out.

Can't wait for the next AGM!



I hope Judd figures it out real soon because there’s been no-one on our board whose had any understanding of these football matters for 20 years. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:21 pm 
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John Nicholls
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DocSherrin III wrote:
doofdoof wrote:
a passmark relative to what? to your opinion? give us some examples...


Yes. I believe I prefaced part of that sentence with 'I personally think that...' That is usually a big clue to the reader that an opinion is coming.


:lol:

DocSherrin III wrote:

doofdoof wrote:
if you grade it relative to drafts 2014 and prior it's an A+++++++


Many years ago I said to a bloke who ran a tennis academy on the Gold Coast - "You do realise most of these kids aren't going to be the next Maria Sharapova...it's just wealthy parents living vicariously through their kids" and he turned to me and said "One. I only need one to make it. The others don't matter. If one makes it - this place pays for itself 100 times over. And I'm considered a genius!"

So for Shane Rogers - Patrick Cripps is his 'one'. The others don't matter. And Shane Rogers is a genius!


Tennis is not a team sport (OK there's doubles but you get the point). Someone who is supposed to draft half a team (and trade the other half) and who gets one diamond among 15 pieces of freshly laid manure can't exactly call themselves a genius.

I get you're being tongue in cheek though.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:24 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Crusader wrote:
Whatever he’s achieved in the last decade or so, SOS will always be the meat head I knew as a specialist coach at the Doggies, where Rocket would openly ask, “Does anyone know what this deadshit does around here?”

Not surprised that he landed a few plum jobs by turning up with a software package and ‘certification’ for how to use it. This is a league that still references ‘basketball background’ as some sort of assurance that the kid can play footy.


Because they catch the ball at its highest point........................ #amiright????

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 11:58 pm
Posts: 4058
Location: South Yarra
DocSherrin III wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
Agree a good ruckman is our most urgent need.
I’m even cooling on the idea of going hard for an established gun mid eg Coniglio.
I’m starting to think we’d be better off getting a moneyball player like the Hawks model from 10yrs ago... Burgoyne, Gunston etc... (Yes Burgoyne is a star but at the time he wasn’t thought to have long left and went for a reasonable price rather than the godfather offer we’d need to get Coniglio).


In early 2015, SOS and Trigg met with John Deeble - known as a bit of a coaching/scouting doyen in baseball circles. John is now the Asia-Pacific Director of scouting for the LA Dodgers, but for 15 years was Asia-Pacific talent scout for the Boston Red Sox. More importantly - Deeble and Brett Ward, an Aussie also with the Red Sox, invented the Aphex Software for List Management. They were trying to capitalize on the 'Moneyball' craze which was being taken so far out of context from what it originally was that it is now more a myth that anything else. But at a local level, Aphex started to gain some momentum - and that momentum coincided with Stephen Silvagni's arrival at Carlton.

Aphex was a similar model to the one Adelaide had used a few years earlier. Stephen Trigg was well aware of it. The Crows had used their own model to prioritize their interest in Eddie Betts (18 months before he left). Deeble launched the Aphex website at the end of 2013 and pitched it directly at the AFL industry. He already had David King speak to the analytics without actually mentioning Aphex by name at the end of 2013 and by January 2014, Callum Twomey had written an article for the AFL website about Aphex as the 'new moneyball'. https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-01-24/the-new-moneyball

In late 2014, SOS's contract comes with his own stipulations. Similar stipulations that he had in 2006*

In September 2006 - Pagan convinced SOS to come on board as a senior assistant. SOS agreed, on the proviso that he can control various elements of the football department. Bruce Mathieson told the board this was a good compromise and a good idea. Then a 3 day circus of indecisive board meetings and football reviews followed. The board agreed to sack Pagan. Barry Mitchell presented to the Board for the senior coaching position before the Board back-flipped on its decision to sack Pagan and reinstated him for a further 2 years. Mitchell stayed as an assistant. Silvagni doesn't have a job. He accepts a coaching offer from then new St.Kilda coach Ross Lyon. 

So - pre-season 2015. SOS is back at Carlton. He has the board wrapped around his finger. He has complete carte-blanche over list management. He's got sign off on using Aphex but he decides he wants to tinker with it. Trigg tells SOS to be mindful that the software is to give them a better understanding of trading - something they know they'll have to do if they're to rebuild in the coming years. SOS wants to use the analytics for drafting. The favorite son wins out. No one goes against SOS. It's a battle at board level that can't be won. LoGiudice has signed off on it. Adrian Gleeson and Craig Mathieson back SOS in. The club is compromised.

It doesn't go as planned. SOS is so invested in his own version of Aphex, that he overlooks fully understanding the new points system and has instead created a convoluted list management tool. Trigg was right. Aphex is designed as a very simplistic tool to analyse and target players already in the system. The goal of "Moneyball" (and Aphex) is simply to identify value that other teams might be overlooking. Michael Agresta joins as List Manager for the 2018 season. That's SOS's exit strategy right there - and at seasons end, he should use it.

Do we need a GM List Manager & Strategy when we have a competent List Manager and the Strategy is somewhat flawed?

The whole list rebuild 'going too young' has been known for a while. Cain Liddle has made mention of his understanding of Carlton's position while he was still at Richmond. He's being polite. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K. Something's brewing. I can feel it in me bones. Someone should book Festival Hall. Only three things are certain - LoGiudice won't fall on his sword, SOS is stubborn and Chris Judd is still trying to figure it all out.

Can't wait for the next AGM!


I had totally forgotten this farcical bit of history. Unbelievable LOL


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:54 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 11671
keogh wrote:
DocSherrin III wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
Agree a good ruckman is our most urgent need.
I’m even cooling on the idea of going hard for an established gun mid eg Coniglio.
I’m starting to think we’d be better off getting a moneyball player like the Hawks model from 10yrs ago... Burgoyne, Gunston etc... (Yes Burgoyne is a star but at the time he wasn’t thought to have long left and went for a reasonable price rather than the godfather offer we’d need to get Coniglio).


In early 2015, SOS and Trigg met with John Deeble - known as a bit of a coaching/scouting doyen in baseball circles. John is now the Asia-Pacific Director of scouting for the LA Dodgers, but for 15 years was Asia-Pacific talent scout for the Boston Red Sox. More importantly - Deeble and Brett Ward, an Aussie also with the Red Sox, invented the Aphex Software for List Management. They were trying to capitalize on the 'Moneyball' craze which was being taken so far out of context from what it originally was that it is now more a myth that anything else. But at a local level, Aphex started to gain some momentum - and that momentum coincided with Stephen Silvagni's arrival at Carlton.

Aphex was a similar model to the one Adelaide had used a few years earlier. Stephen Trigg was well aware of it. The Crows had used their own model to prioritize their interest in Eddie Betts (18 months before he left). Deeble launched the Aphex website at the end of 2013 and pitched it directly at the AFL industry. He already had David King speak to the analytics without actually mentioning Aphex by name at the end of 2013 and by January 2014, Callum Twomey had written an article for the AFL website about Aphex as the 'new moneyball'. https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-01-24/the-new-moneyball

In late 2014, SOS's contract comes with his own stipulations. Similar stipulations that he had in 2006*

In September 2006 - Pagan convinced SOS to come on board as a senior assistant. SOS agreed, on the proviso that he can control various elements of the football department. Bruce Mathieson told the board this was a good compromise and a good idea. Then a 3 day circus of indecisive board meetings and football reviews followed. The board agreed to sack Pagan. Barry Mitchell presented to the Board for the senior coaching position before the Board back-flipped on its decision to sack Pagan and reinstated him for a further 2 years. Mitchell stayed as an assistant. Silvagni doesn't have a job. He accepts a coaching offer from then new St.Kilda coach Ross Lyon. 

So - pre-season 2015. SOS is back at Carlton. He has the board wrapped around his finger. He has complete carte-blanche over list management. He's got sign off on using Aphex but he decides he wants to tinker with it. Trigg tells SOS to be mindful that the software is to give them a better understanding of trading - something they know they'll have to do if they're to rebuild in the coming years. SOS wants to use the analytics for drafting. The favorite son wins out. No one goes against SOS. It's a battle at board level that can't be won. LoGiudice has signed off on it. Adrian Gleeson and Craig Mathieson back SOS in. The club is compromised.

It doesn't go as planned. SOS is so invested in his own version of Aphex, that he overlooks fully understanding the new points system and has instead created a convoluted list management tool. Trigg was right. Aphex is designed as a very simplistic tool to analyse and target players already in the system. The goal of "Moneyball" (and Aphex) is simply to identify value that other teams might be overlooking. Michael Agresta joins as List Manager for the 2018 season. That's SOS's exit strategy right there - and at seasons end, he should use it.

Do we need a GM List Manager & Strategy when we have a competent List Manager and the Strategy is somewhat flawed?

The whole list rebuild 'going too young' has been known for a while. Cain Liddle has made mention of his understanding of Carlton's position while he was still at Richmond. He's being polite. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K. Something's brewing. I can feel it in me bones. Someone should book Festival Hall. Only three things are certain - LoGiudice won't fall on his sword, SOS is stubborn and Chris Judd is still trying to figure it all out.

Can't wait for the next AGM!


.... Silvagni is stubborn and as a list manager punching above his weight... M


I'm sure you don't mean that. You mean the opposite?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:57 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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AGRO wrote:
SOS definitely flowered up his understanding of the points system and Trigg acknowledged that in person to an erstwhile poster here, it’s up to that poster if he wants to post that here again but last time he put this up, he was hounded off the site by a few here that didn’t like what he had to say.

I’ll leave it at that.
Was he a polychromatic male person?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:50 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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moshe25 wrote:
AGRO wrote:
SOS definitely flowered up his understanding of the points system and Trigg acknowledged that in person to an erstwhile poster here, it’s up to that poster if he wants to post that here again but last time he put this up, he was hounded off the site by a few here that didn’t like what he had to say.

I’ll leave it at that.
Was he a polychromatic male person?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk



Best one in the business.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:58 am 
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Ken Hunter
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good ol' rainbowbloke was on the money eh?

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 Post subject: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Ha! That only took me like three hours!

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Megaman wrote:
good ol' rainbowbloke was on the money eh?




Poof...?


kindest regards tommi

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 Post subject: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Be careful about hunting for Ruckmen. Just as Crows got Jacobs, a 4th ranked ruckmen, there are usually plenty to be found. Eg Stefan Martin etc. Let another club spend the time and effort. Pick up developed Ruckman at 23+ who can’t get games.
We might even pinch Sauce back!

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 Post subject: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:35 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:16 pm
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Tom Boyd anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:25 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Blue Steel wrote:
Tom Boyd anyone?


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He’s asked permission to revive his football career in local footy - eastern suburbs of Melbourne.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:37 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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AGRO wrote:
He’s asked permission to revive his football career in local footy - eastern suburbs of Melbourne.


Received permission. Norwood. We used to discuss Norwood a bit on here going back a few years!


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 Post subject: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:29 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Blue Steel wrote:
Tom Boyd anyone?


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Yeah we i was just thinking we really need to recruit some tall forwards!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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robertbb wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Whatever he’s achieved in the last decade or so, SOS will always be the meat head I knew as a specialist coach at the Doggies, where Rocket would openly ask, “Does anyone know what this deadshit does around here?”

Not surprised that he landed a few plum jobs by turning up with a software package and ‘certification’ for how to use it. This is a league that still references ‘basketball background’ as some sort of assurance that the kid can play footy.


Because they catch the ball at its highest point........................ #amiright????


That's gotta be up there as one of the stupidest meaningless cliches in footy, that seem to so easily roll off the tongue of Bruce McAveney these days. He rattled out some shite last night, but thankfully for my own mental health it's escaping my memory… oh, I remember it now. "He's strong through the hips."

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:05 pm 
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John Nicholls
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camelboy wrote:
robertbb wrote:
Crusader wrote:
Whatever he’s achieved in the last decade or so, SOS will always be the meat head I knew as a specialist coach at the Doggies, where Rocket would openly ask, “Does anyone know what this deadshit does around here?”

Not surprised that he landed a few plum jobs by turning up with a software package and ‘certification’ for how to use it. This is a league that still references ‘basketball background’ as some sort of assurance that the kid can play footy.


Because they catch the ball at its highest point........................ #amiright????


That's gotta be up there as one of the stupidest meaningless cliches in footy, that seem to so easily roll off the tongue of Bruce McAveney these days. He rattled out some shite last night, but thankfully for my own mental health it's escaping my memory… oh, I remember it now. "He's strong through the hips."


Right, but for Bwuce "strong through the hips" is a euphemism and has nothing to do with the person's footballing ability.

NTTAWWT.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Tony Sheahan
@TonySheahan
@CarltonFC
President in power play with CEO!!!
The Blues President Mark Loguidice is believed to have defended his List Manager Stephen Silvagni and told Blues Chief Executive Cain Liddle, if SOS goes, you ll have to sack me first in a strong show of faith

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