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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:32 pm 
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John Nicholls
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I would like us to win the flag with all 18 year olds and I accept it might take a while....

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:02 am 
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Ken Hunter
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robertbb wrote:
Holding on to pick 1 (when it would have got us Shiel) is panic?
Picking up a kid rated in the top 2 a few years ago, but who has been set back with injury, is panic?
Paying slightly overs for an exciting forward prospect (McGovern) with years still left in him is panic?
Drafting a proven medium sized forward as depth (Fasolo) for basically nothing, is panic?
Picking up a senior back flanker (Newman) who went from Rookie to regular at Sydney, to cover loss of Byrne, is panic?
Don't argue with keogh. Him be a teacher!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:23 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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We are out of this years and next years second round.


We’ve made these mistakes before when we thought we were ready to trade for ready made players (Warnock Deal).


Picking players like Zac Fisher in the second round cannot be underestimated.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:29 am 
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Ken Hunter

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So you're against getting Setterfield?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:08 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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AGRO wrote:
We are out of this years and next years second round.


We’ve made these mistakes before when we thought we were ready to trade for ready made players (Warnock Deal).


Picking players like Zac Fisher in the second round cannot be underestimated.



Just checking where I said that.


Nope I didn’t say that.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:35 am 
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John James
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Losing the 2nd round picks isn't great but it was unavoidable when bringing in the players we did. They're worth it


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:35 am 
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Geoff Southby

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Everyone would still like to be in the second round and we would if the AFL had not stiffed us on a priority pick

I think the club was blind sighted by this and really thought the AFL were coming good with a mid first round pick
That would have done McGovern and effectively left us with 2 second round picks and given us flexibility on what we gave for Setterfield

In any case if Walsh and Setterfield become midfield guns McGovern a good foil for H and Charlie and Newman and Faz serviceable players it's a very good trade period

I suspect also that after the trade period we will still have one of the youngest lists particularly if we get BSOS and Hickmott as well
Both these boys might not make it but the romanticism is still pretty good /feel good for supporters

I hope in 18 months time we look back at this trade period and say that it was a crucial building block for our renaissance


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:52 am 
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Ken Hunter

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frank dardew wrote:
Everyone would still like to be in the second round and we would if the AFL had not stiffed us on a priority pick

I think the club was blind sighted by this and really thought the AFL were coming good with a mid first round pick
That would have done McGovern and effectively left us with 2 second round picks and given us flexibility on what we gave for Setterfield

In any case if Walsh and Setterfield become midfield guns McGovern a good foil for H and Charlie and Newman and Faz serviceable players it's a very good trade period

I suspect also that after the trade period we will still have one of the youngest lists particularly if we get BSOS and Hickmott as well
Both these boys might not make it but the romanticism is still pretty good /feel good for supporters

I hope in 18 months time we look back at this trade period and say that it was a crucial building block for our renaissance


We're in he same boat as everyone else looking into the future.

The only difference is we have a plethora of quality kids, and we don' rely on all of them making the 17th Flag team.

Furthermore, 3 years ago there was little hope. Ironically after a 2 win season and wooden spoon I am filled with hope and confidence.
The young need to be developed. Fact of life. Doesn't happen overnight. Fisher and Curnow have been overnight sensations, so anything can happen in 2019

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:34 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I would say the sides performance was so bad at times that by
recruiting McGovern Setterfield Fasolo and Newman
even with injuries we will be competitive at least

I assume the club doesn’t want a repeat of games like the GWS game where a side is thrashed
by a side playing 16 fit players the top deck of Marvel stadium empty with half price admission

To me that game is the lowest of low points in the club’s history

Don’t forget it’s a business more than ever.
Clubs are less likely to take the risk of recruiting kids and wait the 3 to 4 years
to find out if there going to be any good

What teams are giving up in draft picks to get older bodies is
a sign of panic from many clubs not just Carlton

Look what Essendon* gave up for Shied
Crazy

The club addressed the media 3 years ago with the
mantra that there wasn’t going to be the quick fix solution

Whilst they have recruited some very good kids too many
older players from other clubs have been recruited to the club

Last season is as bad as it could be

I personally would have had the patience to have recruited 2 midfielders with
the picks in the 20s than use them to pick an undersized forward who hasn’t
fully proved himself

The Setterfield deal I can understand give we desperately need more midfielders
The argument against that is that again we have given up a potentially good kid
in next years draft plus snubbed the lower leagues yet again
Even with the AFL giving us a couple of freebies

To me Silvangis and the clubs approach to this years trade period is putting all your eggs in one basket
approach
This approach doesn’t work if you look at the last 20 years

I like all blues supporters want a 17 th flag

To me this is the wrong strategy to achieve it

By the way Moshe I gave up teaching a long time ago
A terrible job


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:56 am 
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Harry Vallence
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keogh wrote:
Obviously the quick fix is back and the rebuild is over
Personally I don’t like it but we can judge it in a few years time

McGovern is basically got for two picks in the 20 s in a strong draft year
Setterfield is yet another GWS ex player

To me it’s a sign of panic given the sides pathetic efforts this year
If Cripps had been injured the year would have probably been winless

Still plenty of deadwood on the list despite around a dozen goings

Interesting times ahead


Geez Keogh, that got a reaction. :thumbsup:

I think that almost certainly McGovern will be a better player in 2019 than anyone drafted in the 20s this year will be for that season. That for mine is why he was drafted. To improve the team now. I'm not too critical of the stakeholders though - if Carlton don't at least show some improvement in 2019 some of them might be out of a job. Not much fun building a list and copping flogging after flogging to then see someone else come in and starting succeeding with the list you built, (after it's had time to mature).

Is that panic? I guess it's in the ballpark, but I think that it might be just short of the flashing red lights so long as they keep the #1 pick for Walsh or whomever.

Could be worse - Hawthorn and Geelong seem prepared to sacrifice anything to try and avoid rebuilding. At least we've having a bit of a crack at it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:27 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise



To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:41 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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And before anyone jumps in to say Judd was a fair bit to give up don’t forget

Judds best years were way out west
Kennedy has become arguably the best key forward who I thought
was the main difference on Grand Final day
We just provided the work experience for West Cosst
Judd has been retired for a while

Whilst Armfield was excellent as the steak knives
in the deal he’s gone because of age whilst Masten has got better
and has a few years left
Patience wins out in the end


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:09 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:50 am
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Keogh that's simply not true.

Kennedy was part of Judd deal. Judd wasn't a bad player
Cripps traded for 2nd round pick
Redden traded for 1st round pick - 17 I think
Jetta - swapped for a decent ruckman in Sinclair
Vardy was v cheap agree

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:13 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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AGRO wrote:
AGRO wrote:
We are out of this years and next years second round.


We’ve made these mistakes before when we thought we were ready to trade for ready made players (Warnock Deal).


Picking players like Zac Fisher in the second round cannot be underestimated.



Just checking where I said that.


Nope I didn’t say that.




I wasn't sure whether you were stating the obvious or making a judgement on the validity of the trades.
I obviously read too much into your comments.
Personally, I think Setterfield is worth the pick so it's not worth the concern.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:23 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades
like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise



To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


Totally agree.

Its a good thing we have drafted in 16 kids (18-19yo) in the last 3 drafts.

Furthermore we have traded in 8 good kids (under 21) from other teams in the last 3 drafts.

Prior to the last 3 years we traded in a kid called Docherty and Drafted another kid called Cripps.

For me the trading in of Thomas and the trading out of Betts and Waite for nothing was the beginning of the end.

Our strategy has been a lot different for the last 3 years: for the better.

Next month we will raft another 3 kids and Walsh will be one.

We have rebuilt a quality team, and invested in youth for the future and sustained success: 24 quality kids and no messiahs.
We can top up next year with stars and pay them handsomely given we have saved our bikkies to do so. I have no problem with that.
We'd be mad to go to youth again in the next couple of years.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:26 am 
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Ken Hunter

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Posts: 11092
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
AGRO wrote:
AGRO wrote:
We are out of this years and next years second round.


We’ve made these mistakes before when we thought we were ready to trade for ready made players (Warnock Deal).


Picking players like Zac Fisher in the second round cannot be underestimated.



Just checking where I said that.


Nope I didn’t say that.




I wasn't sure whether you were stating the obvious or making a judgement on the validity of the trades.
I obviously read too much into your comments.
Personally, I think Setterfield is worth the pick so it's not worth the concern.


Setterfield was always special, and will be for us too.
Everyone cops injuries. He's copped his fair share of collision injuries.
He'll come good: the sooner, the better.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Keogh that's simply not true.

Kennedy was part of Judd deal. Judd wasn't a bad player
Cripps traded for 2nd round pick
Redden traded for 1st round pick - 17 I think
Jetta - swapped for a decent ruckman in Sinclair
Vardy was v cheap agree


Kennedy and Masten still play
Judd is long gone Armfield
It took WC a while but they go there
McGovern has cost us TWO picks in the 20s

It’s the quick fix all over again

I don’t think you read my post thoroughly enough
Cripps cost 2 picks in the 40s
And WC got one pick back from the aunts

All smart trades
Compare Carlton to West Coast intl the last 8 years
There is your definitive answer


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:17 pm 
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John Nicholls
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If Jacob Townsend from the Tigers is floating free in the next few months he might be worth a long hard look. Struggling to get into a terrific Tigers team but he is strong and powerful and plays the game in a tough aggressive fashion.

Right age bracket with 45 games to his name.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 2030
keogh wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Keogh that's simply not true.

Kennedy was part of Judd deal. Judd wasn't a bad player
Cripps traded for 2nd round pick
Redden traded for 1st round pick - 17 I think
Jetta - swapped for a decent ruckman in Sinclair
Vardy was v cheap agree


Kennedy and Masten still play
Judd is long gone Armfield
It took WC a while but they go there
McGovern has cost us TWO picks in the 20s

It’s the quick fix all over again

I don’t think you read my post thoroughly enough
Cripps cost 2 picks in the 40s
And WC got one pick back from the aunts

All smart trades
Compare Carlton to West Coast intl the last 8 years
There is your definitive answer

How did they get Norm Smith medallist Sheuy and also Darling? Wasn't smart trading. Was the equalisation no longer available that would have got us McGovern. Again, no one will ever notice the leg up they got. All of a sudden they are genuises? They have done well. But don't think it's just by being so much smarter. The got some very nice assistance there.

Look at the last 9 premiers and see 6 had PPs playing for them, one COLA and one a raft of F/S gained under the old system. Leaving the Dogs somehow snatching one. All deserving premiers, but don't think that a little AFL assistance did play an insignificant role in their triumph.

I think the price for McGovern looks a little high. But I also know that picks in the 20s have a low strike rate and we already have plenty of talented kids on the list. I also think Setterfield came probably a little cheap.

So overall, plenty of talented kids already, two more players traded in with two years in the system who are in our best 22 for a decade, a shot at the best kid in the country to come and the best player high performance manager in the AFL to get them on the park firing.

No panic, no messiahs, no farms sold, no players lost to other teams, no murmurs of discontent in a playing group coming off 2 wins, everyone ready for preseason, cash and future picks still available for a Whitfield, Bont, Coniglio or the equivalent to slot into the side in 2020.

Have a look at the list at the end of 2015 and the list today. If this comes off, this will be the greatest exhibition of list management ever seen. That's how bad we were. Not hyperbole.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 2365
bondiblue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades
like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise



To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


Totally agree.

Its a good thing we have drafted in 16 kids (18-19yo) in the last 3 drafts.

Furthermore we have traded in 8 good kids (under 21) from other teams in the last 3 drafts.

Prior to the last 3 years we traded in a kid called Docherty and Drafted another kid called Cripps.

For me the trading in of Thomas and the trading out of Betts and Waite for nothing was the beginning of the end.

Our strategy has been a lot different for the last 3 years: for the better.

Next month we will raft another 3 kids and Walsh will be one.

We have rebuilt a quality team, and invested in youth for the future and sustained success: 24 quality kids and no messiahs.
We can top up next year with stars and pay them handsomely given we have saved our bikkies to do so. I have no problem with that.
We'd be mad to go to youth again in the next couple of years.


Agree BB......AND bringing in the bodies we have this trade is consistent with a strategy ......well done to the club for not waivering.


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