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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8169
Location: Australia
kezza wrote:
I still think we cut the list back too far.
I know it needed to be done but we have let go or lost good senior players such as Touhy and Gibbs when they were the type of players we needed to help bring on the young players.
Everyone will say that the Touhy trade got us Marchbank, he was always going to to come to Carlton and a trade would have been done some other way.
At this point questions have to be asked. Our young players are not developing as they should because of our lack of senior players around them.
Injuries of course have played a big part.
Because we are so bad no free agents will want to come to us so we are in a difficult situation.
It is either the draft of bringing in players who other clubs don't want.


I think the club forgot to factor in that Gibbs and Touhy were two of our most durable players, whilst their replacements have struggled to get on the Park.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Posts: 19501
Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
WOW wrote:
kezza wrote:
I still think we cut the list back too far.
I know it needed to be done but we have let go or lost good senior players such as Touhy and Gibbs when they were the type of players we needed to help bring on the young players.
Everyone will say that the Touhy trade got us Marchbank, he was always going to to come to Carlton and a trade would have been done some other way.
At this point questions have to be asked. Our young players are not developing as they should because of our lack of senior players around them.
Injuries of course have played a big part.
Because we are so bad no free agents will want to come to us so we are in a difficult situation.
It is either the draft of bringing in players who other clubs don't want.


Agree

Still think letting Gibbs go was a mistake

A good durable player with at least 5 - 6 years left in him, would have been invaluable for our younger players

That is why I also believe keeping Murphy should be a priority

We ain't getting Gaff

O'Brien will be playing in 10 years. We're in front.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:54 pm
Posts: 2251
BigKev wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Don't get used to us having a first round pick this year.


https://twitter.com/CarltonFC/status/1007447852996415488



What I would like to see us do is keep recruiting kids through the draft for, say, the next three years. The kids we have will age and, mostly, improve. The missing demographic then will be 25-29. This is a much better age to go after some top up free agents - they'll be a lot cheaper and probably more reliable, (barring injury anyway). If the youngsters have worked out as we hope we will have started moving up the ladder by then too and so will be a more attractive destination. We go after them now we're just going to pay way overs for players we don't really need now anyway, (not if your sole interest is in winning a flag which is not likely to happen anytime soon).

Problem is, as I see it, no one thinks long term. Can't really blame them I guess - it's a cut throat business and a couple of good FAs now might help Bolton keep his job.


I agree with this

Next year we'll have

Cripps
Doc
Charlie
Kennedy
Marchbank
Cunningham
Pickett
Byrne
Lang
Garlett

in this magical 22-26 age group that we are missing this year. That's half a team...

By all means, if there is a suitable free agent then go for it, but I am not a fan of trading away draft picks - particularly not any of our first 3 this year.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
doofdoof wrote:
BigKev wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Don't get used to us having a first round pick this year.


https://twitter.com/CarltonFC/status/1007447852996415488



What I would like to see us do is keep recruiting kids through the draft for, say, the next three years. The kids we have will age and, mostly, improve. The missing demographic then will be 25-29. This is a much better age to go after some top up free agents - they'll be a lot cheaper and probably more reliable, (barring injury anyway). If the youngsters have worked out as we hope we will have started moving up the ladder by then too and so will be a more attractive destination. We go after them now we're just going to pay way overs for players we don't really need now anyway, (not if your sole interest is in winning a flag which is not likely to happen anytime soon).

Problem is, as I see it, no one thinks long term. Can't really blame them I guess - it's a cut throat business and a couple of good FAs now might help Bolton keep his job.


I agree with this

Next year we'll have

Cripps
Doc
Charlie
Kennedy
Marchbank
Cunningham
Pickett
Byrne
Lang
Garlett

in this magical 22-26 age group that we are missing this year. That's half a team...

By all means, if there is a suitable free agent then go for it, but I am not a fan of trading away draft picks - particularly not any of our first 3 this year.

We need a decent run with injuries in that group.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:37 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2032
Now Carlton is getting some positive PR spin by saying they will go after McGovern & Gaff.

All spin. Why would any A grade free agent want to come to Carlton?

It isn’t just free agency that keeps tier 3 teams in the basement it is trading.
I was looking at the example of Tom Mitchell going from the Swans to Gill’s Hawks.

Pick 14!!!! Effectively that is all the Hawks had to give up to get a ball magnet. Surely a trade of that nature should be worth more than pick 14. Why don’t Hawthorn have to give up something of real market value? Trading seems to perpetuate the inequities as Mitchell nominated his club of choice and bingo!

2 first round draft picks minimum real market value

His dad played for Carlton not Hawthorn. He wouldn’t come here in a raging fit.

Now I wonder why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney make the finals EVERY year almost?

In comparison, Teams like Richmond & Bulldogs have built their teams in a more honourable way, I just look at Geelong, Sydney & Hawthorn & see their team building as a cynical exercise of extorting in built inequities within the trading, drafting system.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:15 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Andrew McKay says Carlton could have gotten A grade talent 2 to 3 years ago but wasn’t in right age profile. Absolute B-sh@*.

What about Tom Mitchell?
He’s now 25 years age averaged almost 30 possessions at Swans. Will give Hawks at least 7 years of good service.

Only problem is Mitchell gets to nominate club of choice. Basement clubs have no bargaining tools of extra draft picks or anything to entice Swans to do trade with Blues instead of Hawks...so of course he ends up at Gill’s and Clarko’s club. System is a rort.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:18 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:44 am
Posts: 817
tap in 79 wrote:
Now Carlton is getting some positive PR spin by saying they will go after McGovern & Gaff.

All spin. Why would any A grade free agent want to come to Carlton?

It isn’t just free agency that keeps tier 3 teams in the basement it is trading.
I was looking at the example of Tom Mitchell going from the Swans to Gill’s Hawks.

Pick 14!!!! Effectively that is all the Hawks had to give up to get a ball magnet. Surely a trade of that nature should be worth more than pick 14. Why don’t Hawthorn have to give up something of real market value? Trading seems to perpetuate the inequities as Mitchell nominated his club of choice and bingo!

2 first round draft picks minimum real market value

His dad played for Carlton not Hawthorn. He wouldn’t come here in a raging fit.

Now I wonder why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney make the finals EVERY year almost?

In comparison, Teams like Richmond & Bulldogs have built their teams in a more honourable way, I just look at Geelong, Sydney & Hawthorn & see their team building as a cynical exercise of extorting in built inequities within the trading, drafting system.



Let’s not blame our failures on those doing better than us. We aren’t communist.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:01 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4517
Location: Blisstonia.
tap in 79 wrote:
Now Carlton is getting some positive PR spin by saying they will go after McGovern & Gaff.

All spin. Why would any A grade free agent want to come to Carlton?

It isn’t just free agency that keeps tier 3 teams in the basement it is trading.
I was looking at the example of Tom Mitchell going from the Swans to Gill’s Hawks.

Pick 14!!!! Effectively that is all the Hawks had to give up to get a ball magnet. Surely a trade of that nature should be worth more than pick 14. Why don’t Hawthorn have to give up something of real market value? Trading seems to perpetuate the inequities as Mitchell nominated his club of choice and bingo!

2 first round draft picks minimum real market value

His dad played for Carlton not Hawthorn. He wouldn’t come here in a raging fit.

Now I wonder why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney make the finals EVERY year almost?

In comparison, Teams like Richmond & Bulldogs have built their teams in a more honourable way, I just look at Geelong, Sydney & Hawthorn & see their team building as a cynical exercise of extorting in built inequities within the trading, drafting system.


I'll be brief as you never listen anyway.

- Mitchell fell out with Longmire and a heap of team mates. For whatever reason Horse played him in the NEAFL or as a sub regularly in his first 5 seasons. His trade value was lowered due to these circumstances.

- If you are going to use a one off example to prove your point perhaps think about the fact that in this example the team on the receiving end of Hawthorn's "good fortune" in the Mitchell deal, is one of the other teams you are trying to prove is exorting the system in Sydney. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you are ranting about Hawthorns free agency/system rorting advantage do you ever bring up the fact they lost Lance Franklin for just Pick #19?.

- And finally if you are going to bring up one off trade examples from the 2016 exchange period to prove how Hawthorn have an unfair advantage, why not take us through the O'Meara deal where they gave up something like Picks #7, #23, #26 and #36 for O'Meara and #68?

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:12 am 
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formerly King Kenny
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
tap in 79 wrote:
Now Carlton is getting some positive PR spin by saying they will go after McGovern & Gaff.

All spin. Why would any A grade free agent want to come to Carlton?

It isn’t just free agency that keeps tier 3 teams in the basement it is trading.
I was looking at the example of Tom Mitchell going from the Swans to Gill’s Hawks.

Pick 14!!!! Effectively that is all the Hawks had to give up to get a ball magnet. Surely a trade of that nature should be worth more than pick 14. Why don’t Hawthorn have to give up something of real market value? Trading seems to perpetuate the inequities as Mitchell nominated his club of choice and bingo!

2 first round draft picks minimum real market value

His dad played for Carlton not Hawthorn. He wouldn’t come here in a raging fit.

Now I wonder why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney make the finals EVERY year almost?

In comparison, Teams like Richmond & Bulldogs have built their teams in a more honourable way, I just look at Geelong, Sydney & Hawthorn & see their team building as a cynical exercise of extorting in built inequities within the trading, drafting system.


A pick that netted Sydney Hayward and Florent.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:40 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am
Posts: 2032
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Now Carlton is getting some positive PR spin by saying they will go after McGovern & Gaff.

All spin. Why would any A grade free agent want to come to Carlton?

It isn’t just free agency that keeps tier 3 teams in the basement it is trading.
I was looking at the example of Tom Mitchell going from the Swans to Gill’s Hawks.

Pick 14!!!! Effectively that is all the Hawks had to give up to get a ball magnet. Surely a trade of that nature should be worth more than pick 14. Why don’t Hawthorn have to give up something of real market value? Trading seems to perpetuate the inequities as Mitchell nominated his club of choice and bingo!

2 first round draft picks minimum real market value

His dad played for Carlton not Hawthorn. He wouldn’t come here in a raging fit.

Now I wonder why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney make the finals EVERY year almost?

In comparison, Teams like Richmond & Bulldogs have built their teams in a more honourable way, I just look at Geelong, Sydney & Hawthorn & see their team building as a cynical exercise of extorting in built inequities within the trading, drafting system.


I'll be brief as you never listen anyway.

- Mitchell fell out with Longmire and a heap of team mates. For whatever reason Horse played him in the NEAFL or as a sub regularly in his first 5 seasons. His trade value was lowered due to these circumstances.

- If you are going to use a one off example to prove your point perhaps think about the fact that in this example the team on the receiving end of Hawthorn's "good fortune" in the Mitchell deal, is one of the other teams you are trying to prove is exorting the system in Sydney. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you are ranting about Hawthorns free agency/system rorting advantage do you ever bring up the fact they lost Lance Franklin for just Pick #19?.

- And finally if you are going to bring up one off trade examples from the 2016 exchange period to prove how Hawthorn have an unfair advantage, why not take us through the O'Meara deal where they gave up something like Picks #7, #23, #26 and #36 for O'Meara and #68?



I actually think your counter-arguments are valid, very valid. They have credence.

Just a couple of points to counter the counter argument though.

1- Tom Mitchell- He was averaging 30 possessions or thereabouts at the Swans. Everyone knew he was a gun player. It wasn't a mystery like picking up an 18 year old rookie in the draft. Why did they fall out with him? was it because he was seeking to return to Melbourne?

Personally, I wouldn't care if he fell out with everyone from the president to the bootstudder, if you are picking up 30 possessions per match in the engine room...fall out with as many people as you like.

2- Yes, Hawthorn got extorted by the deal for Franklin. That clearly wasn't market value. I agree.

But think about the club he went to...Sydney. A club that he chose as it was consistently a Tier 1 club and had extra money in the salary cap...further entrenching their stint at the top. How many games has Sydney beaten Carlton in in the last 2-3 years largely on the back of Franklin's goal kicking? Why did the AFL give them an allowance to basically keep them at the top?



Re: Franklin trade for Hawthorn.
Tier 1 clubs can afford to lose out on the odd trade, tier 3 clubs cannot. Why? because they are still a destination club - hence why Mitchell basically told the Swans I want to get to Hawthorn. The players clearly have too much power in where they want to end up as it stands.

Tier 3 clubs aren't in the real game, they are sideshows. Tier 3 clubs are perpetually trading for B or C grade players eg Carlton getting that bloke who played reserves at Geelong Lang and Mullett from North. There is no easy fix.



Carlton can't spend up big to get a Kernahan, Bradley and a Motley, Footscray can't spend up big to get a Royal, McGuiness etc and turn around their fortunes quickly. Again, Carlton will go to the draft at the end of the year and sell the "big white hope" on one young 18 year old with no real experience. Contrast to that in the 1980s when Carlton got Kernahan. We knew what we were getting- the best player in the SANFL.


My argument is get rid of the draft. It entrenches inequities, or radically change the draft. Do what the NRL is doing. They have no draft. Try something eg. No recruitment of 18 year olds, give them a year or two in the SANFL, WAFL etc so we have a better read.

3- The O'Meara trade is your 3rd point. I hope they lose out big time on this, so far it is looking good. This is one key way that I can hope Hawthorn will be brought back to the pack. Bad trades - eg the Vickery one. If they start making a few more like this perhaps things will change, but I doubt it. Hawthorn have the resources, they will make the finals again this year, barring injuries. Surprise ! Surprise!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:44 am 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Posts: 321
is the draft the issue, or the constant bastardising the AFL do to it?

every couple of season there is an adjustment to it


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-06-15/c ... r-the-dees

On the theme of the overall impact of free agency there's a comment in this article which, if correct, should cause great concern at AFL house.
It reads:

Industry sources estimate he could command about $600,000 a season to stay at Carlton, most likely on a two-year deal. That's still a sizeable cut from his existing four-year contract that is understood to be worth, on average, around $750,000 a year, but a team like Melbourne would be more likely to offer him between $450,000 and $500,000.

So $200,000 to $300,000 over two years looms as the price Murphy must pay to have a final tilt at a flag.


We've discussed how hopeless the FA system is as a bottom club because we have to pay so much more to attract good players, but this is much worse. This is suggesting that we should also expect to pay a lot more just to keep our good players. If true then bottom clubs better get used to being bottom clubs under the current system.

Perhaps in addition to giving bottom clubs lower draft picks etc the AFL needs to consider a formula for granting these clubs additional salary cap space.


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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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FWIW - MS3 on BF (who’s mail can be shaky at times) thinks we’re looking at both McGoverns and A Brayshaw, and that Shiel is a big chance next year.

I don’t buy it, but we can all do with some hope today.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Donstuie wrote:
FWIW - MS3 on BF (who’s mail can be shaky at times) thinks we’re looking at both McGoverns and A Brayshaw, and that Shiel is a big chance next year.

I don’t buy it, but we can all do with some hope today.


But are they looking at us? :sly:

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Time will tell I guess.

But I have to admit that I’m surprised how strong and specific the club has been on the FA issue this year.

Given how timid we’ve been in the past, I’d be surprised if the club would risk the ridicule (ala Norf last year) if they didn’t have some aces in the hole.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:09 pm 
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formerly BlueRob
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WOW wrote:
kezza wrote:
I still think we cut the list back too far.
I know it needed to be done but we have let go or lost good senior players such as Touhy and Gibbs when they were the type of players we needed to help bring on the young players.
Everyone will say that the Touhy trade got us Marchbank, he was always going to to come to Carlton and a trade would have been done some other way.
At this point questions have to be asked. Our young players are not developing as they should because of our lack of senior players around them.
Injuries of course have played a big part.
Because we are so bad no free agents will want to come to us so we are in a difficult situation.
It is either the draft of bringing in players who other clubs don't want.


Agree

Still think letting Gibbs go was a mistake

A good durable player with at least 5 - 6 years left in him, would have been invaluable for our younger players

That is why I also believe keeping Murphy should be a priority

We ain't getting Gaff


Absolutely agree on Gibbs ... at last people are seeing the light ... unfortunately too late.

Not sure about Gaff ... word is we are hunting him hard ... but we will need to show something before years end.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Donstuie wrote:
FWIW - MS3 on BF (who’s mail can be shaky at times) thinks we’re looking at both McGoverns and A Brayshaw, and that Shiel is a big chance next year.

I don’t buy it, but we can all do with some hope today.

I’ve heard similar as regards the last two plus two others ...

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Juddy&theKruezers wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
FWIW - MS3 on BF (who’s mail can be shaky at times) thinks we’re looking at both McGoverns and A Brayshaw, and that Shiel is a big chance next year.

I don’t buy it, but we can all do with some hope today.

I’ve heard similar as regards the last two plus two others ...


I heard that SOS in 2017 had spoken to managers of players coming out of contract end 2018. All that are known.
There's a lot of targets and there's a huge war chest.

We obviously need a couple class mids this year, plus another couple next year to make us competitive.
Im assuming another preseason for the kids, and a more coherent understanding in the game plan will see heaps of improvement next year.

We MUST trade for class and recruit FA's this year. WE can't just keep adding kids to kids.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Players who have been delisted or are currently playing in the reserves should not be targets for trade, unless they play for the top teams, and fill a gap for us.

OShea, Mullett are opt the type we need.
We need hard running mids with mature bodies.

Im sure there were a few in the WAFL SAFL or even VFL who would have helped us this year.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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Wines, DeGoey or Gaff are who we should chase id prefer one of Wines or DeGoey as inside mids to back up Crippa with Gaff on the outside.
Ill be gutted if they do not have a real crack at these guys.


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