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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Donstuie wrote:
Pelchen (of all people) talking some sense

https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode/?id=187844


Pelchen created 'the tank' and 'bottoming out'. Why wouldn't he be talking 'sense'.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:04 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17517
AGRO wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Henderson & Tuohy are cases in point. They went trophy hunting. Carlton got little in return.


An interesting memory.

As for Tuohey, he didn't go trophy hunting at all. We offered him a low contract which he rightly didn't accept. He openly stated he wanted to stay.
In return we got Caleb Marchbank. A probable 10 year defender and probably one of our 2 best players until he rolled his ankle.
Would you like to take the deal back?



If I recall correctly it was Tuohy and pick 20 for Marchbank - not Tuohy for Marchbank.

As I said not against getting Marchbank, but we paid David Jones prices.


IIRC, We traded Tuohey and our future second rounder (which ended up as 20) for Smedts, Future Geelong first rounder and pick 63. (Polson?)
We then used the Geelong first rounder with 45 and 58 for Marchbank, Pickett and the GWS future second rounder. We then on traded that GWS pick for 48, 66 and 70. Williamson, Kerr, Macreadie.

So by my calculations, we lost Tuohey, our future second rounder, 45 and 58 to get Smedts, Marchbank, Polson, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr and Jarrod Pickett. The club told us not to look at the trades in isolation but to look at the end result.

The end result isn't David Jones prices to me. In fact, I think we got a bloody bargain. Marchbank is a gun, Williamson looks like a 10 year player, I'm excited by Picketts improvement and Macreadie looks like a future long term defender. Polson I also have hopes for and Patrick Kerr is developing nicely as a key forward.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:01 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Blue Vain wrote:
AGRO wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Henderson & Tuohy are cases in point. They went trophy hunting. Carlton got little in return.


An interesting memory.

As for Tuohey, he didn't go trophy hunting at all. We offered him a low contract which he rightly didn't accept. He openly stated he wanted to stay.
In return we got Caleb Marchbank. A probable 10 year defender and probably one of our 2 best players until he rolled his ankle.
Would you like to take the deal back?



If I recall correctly it was Tuohy and pick 20 for Marchbank - not Tuohy for Marchbank.

As I said not against getting Marchbank, but we paid David Jones prices.


IIRC, We traded Tuohey and our future second rounder (which ended up as 20) for Smedts, Future Geelong first rounder and pick 63. (Polson?)
We then used the Geelong first rounder with 45 and 58 for Marchbank, Pickett and the GWS future second rounder. We then on traded that GWS pick for 48, 66 and 70. Williamson, Kerr, Macreadie.

So by my calculations, we lost Tuohey, our future second rounder, 45 and 58 to get Smedts, Marchbank, Polson, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr and Jarrod Pickett. The club told us not to look at the trades in isolation but to look at the end result.

The end result isn't David Jones prices to me. In fact, I think we got a bloody bargain. Marchbank is a gun, Williamson looks like a 10 year player, I'm excited by Picketts improvement and Macreadie looks like a future long term defender. Polson I also have hopes for and Patrick Kerr is developing nicely as a key forward.


Can you please stop making sense again BV...

:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:19 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Donstuie wrote:
moshe25 wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Pelchen (of all people) talking some sense

https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode/?id=187844
Why "of all people"? This guy understands list management more than most and has a track record, doesn't he?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

For the longest time the bloke had very little positive to say about us, and along with some of his questionably ethical list mgmt choices (Hay to Norf) has been near the top of the TC hitlist.

But in fairness he’s been more measured in recent times.


I thought Pelchen had a reputation as being a complete flower at the trade table, not that he didn't know anything about building a list.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:53 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I love you BV.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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dane wrote:
I love you BV.



me too


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Blue Vain wrote:
AGRO wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Henderson & Tuohy are cases in point. They went trophy hunting. Carlton got little in return.


An interesting memory.

As for Tuohey, he didn't go trophy hunting at all. We offered him a low contract which he rightly didn't accept. He openly stated he wanted to stay.
In return we got Caleb Marchbank. A probable 10 year defender and probably one of our 2 best players until he rolled his ankle.
Would you like to take the deal back?



If I recall correctly it was Tuohy and pick 20 for Marchbank - not Tuohy for Marchbank.

As I said not against getting Marchbank, but we paid David Jones prices.


IIRC, We traded Tuohey and our future second rounder (which ended up as 20) for Smedts, Future Geelong first rounder and pick 63. (Polson?)
We then used the Geelong first rounder with 45 and 58 for Marchbank, Pickett and the GWS future second rounder. We then on traded that GWS pick for 48, 66 and 70. Williamson, Kerr, Macreadie.

So by my calculations, we lost Tuohey, our future second rounder, 45 and 58 to get Smedts, Marchbank, Polson, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr and Jarrod Pickett. The club told us not to look at the trades in isolation but to look at the end result.

The end result isn't David Jones prices to me. In fact, I think we got a bloody bargain. Marchbank is a gun, Williamson looks like a 10 year player, I'm excited by Picketts improvement and Macreadie looks like a future long term defender. Polson I also have hopes for and Patrick Kerr is developing nicely as a key forward.


So Carlton got a bargain by getting rid of an A grade defender (or B plus) and selecting a whole lot of young recruits.
So be it. Marchbank is a gun apparently...he's played less than 50 games, and already one can summarise he will make it. I hope you are right.

Either way, even if all three turn out ok it doesn't change the equation. Tier 1 clubs can pick the eyes out of Tier 3 clubs with ease if any of those players become seriously good under the present system of trading/free agency.


My argument is that something needs to be done to ensure Tier 3 clubs don't stay down the bottom for years on end. Does free agency widen or minimise the gap between top clubs and bottom clubs? has trading between bottom and top clubs helped or hindered top clubs on average in the last 10 years? Is the draft enough of a mechanism to create new hope for tier 3 clubs?

It is in the AFL's interest, surely?, to have matches which are unpredictable.


My query isn't with Silvagni's recruiting. Considering the position he is in, he has done ok. Better than the clown before him...but my query is with equalisation, especially seeing as the PR message out of the AFL is that they are creating this equalised competition.

The NRL doesn't have a draft...is this why it is more EVEN and more prone to upset results? Someone should do a study on it, as $$ will walk out the door if there are 3-4 dead rubbers every week in the AFL.


Sydney - is this a picture of equalisation?

The AFL media tell us each club has to rise and fall, and use the draft to get back up to the top again. Is that true?

I will list the years Sydney has made the finals since 2005.

2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 ,2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 & 2017


I will list the years Hawthorn has made the finals since 2005.

2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016


I will list the years Geelong has made the finals since 2005.

2005, 2007, 2008. 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017



I will now list the years Tier 3 clubs have made the finals since 2005.

Brisbane

2009

Carlton

2009, 2010, 2011, 2013


Melbourne

2005, 2006 (the media tell us Melbourne is finals bound this year...we will wait and see)


Now I am not saying Carlton shouldn't pay for their crimes of poor recruiting. That is fine. What I want is genuine hope of improvement, and to be told that the AFL has a policy of equalisation is a lie.


Hawthorn gets 35$ million plus for their AFL endorsed Tasmania experiment, Sydney got salary cap benefits, Geelong picked the eyes out of the father-son scenario up until they changed the rule. And we wonder why all three clubs (barring significant injuries) will make the finals once again this year.


Why did Richmond win the premiership then?
I wouldn't consider them a Tier 3 club. They were not a cellar-dweller for years on end. They played finals in four of the last 5 years.

The core players were exceptional in their positions - Cotchin (a player Carlton should have recruited), Rance, Martin, Riewoldt. Around that core they built a good team, good recruiting put the icing on the cake. Lack of injuries and a good game plan did the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I hate the idea that every club gets a turn at the top. It’s a @#$%&! sport not 21st century @#$%&! pass the parcel where every whimpering snot nosed brat wins a prize.

One of the great things about the era I grew up in was that Carlton was always up there.

Another great thing was that St Kilda was always down there.

Did I want St Kilda “equalized”?

No @#$%&! way!

It’s all about the dollars now and we’re poorer for it.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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GWS wrote:
I hate the idea that every club gets a turn at the top. It’s a @#$%&! sport not 21st century @#$%&! pass the parcel where every whimpering snot nosed brat wins a prize.

One of the great things about the era I grew up in was that Carlton was always up there.

Another great thing was that St Kilda was always down there.

Did I want St Kilda “equalized”?

No @#$%&! way!

It’s all about the dollars now and we’re poorer for it.



I agree with what you are saying. The 1960s to 1980s was free market. Carlton, Hawthorn & Richmond excelled. North Melbourne with the help of brown paper bags & the 10 year rule also excelled. Rantall's home was paid off with one brown paper bag payment.

The 2000-18 period has been socialism on steroids, but Animal Farm distorted socialism, where some pigs are more equal than others.

In this type of socialism, the Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn pigs are more equal than others.

The aim of the AFL is surely to have unpredictable results. That isn't happening, so there is something wrong with their distorted socialism. The 1960s was the most unpredictable time for results -and in that time they didn't have a draft, salary cap, free agency etc....


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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A perfect example of how capitalism works within a distorted socialist drafting/trading situation is this with Tom Mitchell.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-19/h ... de-bargain

This article mentions that two tier 3 teams tried to recruit Mitchell. Carlton was one, obviously knocked back as he saw Carlton as a basement type club.

The other was Gold Coast.

"Gold Coast, which was about to reluctantly trade midfield stars Jaeger O'Meara (Hawthorn) and Dion Prestia (Richmond), met with him and offered more money than Hawthorn.

But Mitchell was set on a move to Melbourne to be closer to family."



They always throw that one "closer to family" in to disguise the real reason. I don't buy it. He wanted to get to a tier 1 contending club and be a midfielder all the time.

If Gold Coast was a competitive team, with a record of success, and paid him 800k per year he would have more than likely gone there.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:12 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21291&p=1715394#p1715394

Quote:
I am tired out about this and Carlton and football in general...so don't worry, I won't be posting much at all anymore

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:34 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Blueboy74 wrote:
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21291&p=1715394#p1715394

Quote:
I am tired out about this and Carlton and football in general...so don't worry, I won't be posting much at all anymore


Yep, and I don't post that often. Sorry to disappoint. Obviously you would prefer me to post more often, right.. :smile:

Footy Show - interview with Zach Tuohy- 19/4/18

Sam Newman - why does Geelong have such a better culture than Carlton?
Zach Tuohy - "Geelong are just a lot further down the track. Geelong have had a well established system & culture for a number of years."
Deciphered - Geelong have Paddy Dangerfield. I have a chance of winning a flag with this mob.

Zach Tuohy - "You have to expect there are teething issues with really young teams"
Deciphered - Carlton are up shite creek without a paddle. No experienced players to shield the youngsters. We at Geelong will wallop them without mercy when we play them later this year.

Fev - "He (Tuohy) saw the ship sinking & he jumped off real quick."
Ed Collingwood - "& you reckon the Irish are dumb" giggle giggle.
Zach Tuohy- big smile on his face, laughs it up, giggle, giggle.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Some of these ex Sydney players really boom when they get to a Melbourne club that has a spot for them in their preferred position. Guys like Biggs, Mitchell and now Murray at Collingwood. Are guys like Rose, Foote or Robinson worth trying to get to Carlton? I used to watch Rose as a junior and I liked him but I don't know a real lot about the other two.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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tap in 79 wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21291&p=1715394#p1715394

Quote:
I am tired out about this and Carlton and football in general...so don't worry, I won't be posting much at all anymore


Yep, and I don't post that often. Sorry to disappoint. Obviously you would prefer me to post more often, right.. :smile:

Footy Show - interview with Zach Tuohy- 19/4/18

Sam Newman - why does Geelong have such a better culture than Carlton?
Zach Tuohy - "Geelong are just a lot further down the track. Geelong have had a well established system & culture for a number of years."
Deciphered - Geelong have Paddy Dangerfield. I have a chance of winning a flag with this mob.

Zach Tuohy - "You have to expect there are teething issues with really young teams"
Deciphered - Carlton are up shite creek without a paddle. No experienced players to shield the youngsters. We at Geelong will wallop them without mercy when we play them later this year.

Fev - "He (Tuohy) saw the ship sinking & he jumped off real quick."
Ed Collingwood - "& you reckon the Irish are dumb" giggle giggle.
Zach Tuohy- big smile on his face, laughs it up, giggle, giggle.
Shocking. Really? You'd expect a lot better from TFS.... chortle chortle..

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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We can't really expect sympathy from outside the club from places like TFS.
We ran riot back in the day nabbing players from everywhere to fill a specific role.
That's why we were hated back then and the hate continues.
We reveled in it back then and now we have to cop it and fight back.
I prefer that they hate us than pity us.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
GWS wrote:
I hate the idea that every club gets a turn at the top. It’s a @#$%&! sport not 21st century @#$%&! pass the parcel where every whimpering snot nosed brat wins a prize.

One of the great things about the era I grew up in was that Carlton was always up there.

Another great thing was that St Kilda was always down there.

Did I want St Kilda “equalized”?

No @#$%&! way!

It’s all about the dollars now and we’re poorer for it.


Exactly what I was thinking. I want to be dominant up there for decades again and people whining it’s unfair we are so good, rather than people being woe is us on here.

We got ourselves in this mess by being a crap club. We will get ourselves out of it by being a good club.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:47 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Carlton will chase a gun midfielder during the trade and free agency period at end of the season
Glenn McFarlane wrote:
A CASHED-UP Carlton will chase a blue-chip midfielder as it enters this year’s free agency market confident its strategic rebuild remains on course, despite a winless start to 2018.

While the Blues have been extremely disappointed with their 0-4 start, the club’s general manager of football Andrew McKay has urged fans to remain patient ahead of Saturday’s clash with West Coast at the MCG.

McKay said the club won’t deviate from a plan set in place after coach Brendon Bolton’s appointment in late 2015, saying cutting corners would hurt the Blues in the long-run.

That involves a concerted push to seek the most suitable midfield free agent in October in an effort to fill a mid-20s void on the club’s playing list, and to help support stars such as Marc Murphy and Patrick Cripps.

“We are certainly in the free agency market,” McKay told the Herald Sun. “It has been about the timing of when to decide to seek a free agent ... we think the timing is pretty good now.

“We have got some young midfielders coming through in (Paddy) Dow, (Lochie), O’Brien and Charlie (Curnow) will go through there,” he said.

“But we still need those experienced heads that can rotate through the midfield to take pressure off ‘Murph’ and ‘Crippa’.”

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:49 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Donstuie wrote:
Carlton will chase a gun midfielder during the trade and free agency period at end of the season
Glenn McFarlane wrote:
A CASHED-UP Carlton will chase a blue-chip midfielder as it enters this year’s free agency market confident its strategic rebuild remains on course, despite a winless start to 2018.

While the Blues have been extremely disappointed with their 0-4 start, the club’s general manager of football Andrew McKay has urged fans to remain patient ahead of Saturday’s clash with West Coast at the MCG.

McKay said the club won’t deviate from a plan set in place after coach Brendon Bolton’s appointment in late 2015, saying cutting corners would hurt the Blues in the long-run.

That involves a concerted push to seek the most suitable midfield free agent in October in an effort to fill a mid-20s void on the club’s playing list, and to help support stars such as Marc Murphy and Patrick Cripps.

“We are certainly in the free agency market,” McKay told the Herald Sun. “It has been about the timing of when to decide to seek a free agent ... we think the timing is pretty good now.


who's available ?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:53 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Gaff, methinks.

Others of note in that age bracket:
    Luke Dalhaus
    Cam Guthrie
    Rory Sloane
    Mitch Wallis

Shiel next year.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:00 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14236
Rexy wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Carlton will chase a gun midfielder during the trade and free agency period at end of the season
Glenn McFarlane wrote:
A CASHED-UP Carlton will chase a blue-chip midfielder as it enters this year’s free agency market confident its strategic rebuild remains on course, despite a winless start to 2018.

While the Blues have been extremely disappointed with their 0-4 start, the club’s general manager of football Andrew McKay has urged fans to remain patient ahead of Saturday’s clash with West Coast at the MCG.

McKay said the club won’t deviate from a plan set in place after coach Brendon Bolton’s appointment in late 2015, saying cutting corners would hurt the Blues in the long-run.

That involves a concerted push to seek the most suitable midfield free agent in October in an effort to fill a mid-20s void on the club’s playing list, and to help support stars such as Marc Murphy and Patrick Cripps.

“We are certainly in the free agency market,” McKay told the Herald Sun. “It has been about the timing of when to decide to seek a free agent ... we think the timing is pretty good now.


who's available ?

Who wants to come to Carlton is more to the point.


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