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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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I have to agree sos has for the majority done his part (not really excited about his choice of recycled players in the last draft though). The talls needed to come first so they can have time to develop and he has taken some good kids later in the draft. We have pace and skill and more will come but our problem right now is the style of play, the intensity and leadership.
We have lost Gibbs and Doc which is a huge hole but this is the area we need to push onto others. Bolton needs to make the seniors responsible and accountable while protecting the juniors and having them enjoy their initiation.
Is it easy? No, but that's just one role the coach needs to address.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Blue Vain wrote:

..... Plowman has been a constant in our backline .....



A constant what?

:?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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A constant selection. Obviously Bolton and the MC rate him and I'd suggest they know far more than you or I.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
A constant selection. Obviously Bolton and the MC rate him and I'd suggest they know far more than you or I.
I would back you and Argo any day of the week

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17569
Braithy wrote:
I don't think SOS is a problem. he's turning over the list, i think he's neglected pace and delisting a few of our faster guys at the end of last season like Buckley has left a hole.

development is the concern.

as of right now, SPS, Weitering, McKay, and a handful of others either haven't come along, or have taken a step or two backwards from their rookie years. and that is alarm bells. whether it's bolton's coaching, or the line coaches and development strategy, if it's not fixed soon, we'll lose another whole generation of high picks to mediocrity.


Weitering is struggling but I'm not sure of the others. SPS is up on last years kicks, handballs, marks and is impacting games with greater consistency. McKay has put on a bit of size and started to get his body right. Who are the handful of others you're talking about?
Fisher has improved significantly. Charlie has improved enormously. Marchbank has improved significantly. Cuningham looks to have improved significantly. Williamson would be a walk up start if fit, Kym LeBois is having a more consistent impact in the VFL and Macreadie is defending well in the VFL.
I'm seeing quite a number of players who have improved.

As for Dylan Buckley, please. He's a sub -standard AFL player. Suggesting his delisting is a mistake is drawing a long bow IMO. Its no point having pace if you cant get the ball or cant impact contests. Buckley is in his 7th year in the AFL. He's not up to it.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5990
Location: Melbourne
Blue Vain wrote:
Braithy wrote:
I don't think SOS is a problem. he's turning over the list, i think he's neglected pace and delisting a few of our faster guys at the end of last season like Buckley has left a hole.

development is the concern.

as of right now, SPS, Weitering, McKay, and a handful of others either haven't come along, or have taken a step or two backwards from their rookie years. and that is alarm bells. whether it's bolton's coaching, or the line coaches and development strategy, if it's not fixed soon, we'll lose another whole generation of high picks to mediocrity.


Weitering is struggling but I'm not sure of the others. SPS is up on last years kicks, handballs, marks and is impacting games with greater consistency. McKay has put on a bit of size and started to get his body right. Who are the handful of others you're talking about?
Fisher has improved significantly. Charlie has improved enormously. Marchbank has improved significantly. Cuningham looks to have improved significantly. Williamson would be a walk up start if fit, Kym LeBois is having a more consistent impact in the VFL and Macreadie is defending well in the VFL.
I'm seeing quite a number of players who have improved.

As for Dylan Buckley, please. He's a sub -standard AFL player. Suggesting his delisting is a mistake is drawing a long bow IMO. Its no point having pace if you cant get the ball or cant impact contests. Buckley is in his 7th year in the AFL. He's not up to it.


Delisting Buckley may not have been a mistake, but what do O’Shea Mullett or Shaw offer that’s better than Buckley? Or even Boeky for that matter


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Brisbane
Adam Chatfield wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Braithy wrote:
I don't think SOS is a problem. he's turning over the list, i think he's neglected pace and delisting a few of our faster guys at the end of last season like Buckley has left a hole.

development is the concern.

as of right now, SPS, Weitering, McKay, and a handful of others either haven't come along, or have taken a step or two backwards from their rookie years. and that is alarm bells. whether it's bolton's coaching, or the line coaches and development strategy, if it's not fixed soon, we'll lose another whole generation of high picks to mediocrity.


Weitering is struggling but I'm not sure of the others. SPS is up on last years kicks, handballs, marks and is impacting games with greater consistency. McKay has put on a bit of size and started to get his body right. Who are the handful of others you're talking about?
Fisher has improved significantly. Charlie has improved enormously. Marchbank has improved significantly. Cuningham looks to have improved significantly. Williamson would be a walk up start if fit, Kym LeBois is having a more consistent impact in the VFL and Macreadie is defending well in the VFL.
I'm seeing quite a number of players who have improved.

As for Dylan Buckley, please. He's a sub -standard AFL player. Suggesting his delisting is a mistake is drawing a long bow IMO. Its no point having pace if you cant get the ball or cant impact contests. Buckley is in his 7th year in the AFL. He's not up to it.


Delisting Buckley may not have been a mistake, but what do O’Shea Mullett or Shaw offer that’s better than Buckley? Or even Boeky for that matter



Fair question. Yet to see Moments with Mullet, Offerings with O'Shea, Symposiums with Shaw or Brainstorming with Boeky.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Blue Vain wrote:

As for Dylan Buckley, please. He's a sub -standard AFL player. Suggesting his delisting is a mistake is drawing a long bow IMO. Its no point having pace if you cant get the ball or cant impact contests. Buckley is in his 7th year in the AFL. He's not up to it.




buckley wasn't up to it, i agree. but we have a half dozen on the senior list every weekend also not up to it. with buckley he had heart and run and carry and pace. and right now, that would be an element i'd enjoy watching. just someone having a go and taking the game on.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Blue Vain wrote:
I understand people are looking for answers after a poor start this season but lets be realistic in our assessments. Yes our list is unbalanced at the moment but it will balance out after another draft. We did the right thing chasing KPP first because they require more time.


:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
Dylan Spraycan


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4518
Location: Blisstonia.
Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
A constant selection. Obviously Bolton and the MC rate him and I'd suggest they know far more than you or I.
I would back you and Argo any day of the week

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


Even though they are disagreeing with each other? :?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:58 pm
Posts: 1636
BigBlueWave wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
cimm1979 wrote:
I haven't got much of a problem with the players we've drafted or recruited in general since SOS got the gig, but he's rooted any chance of Bolts being competitive ATM.

Loading up with 4 recycled HBF's this season was a disaster for a team with no midfield support.

That we didn't at least try to pick up one or two high possession mids from WAFL / SANFL etc has left us uncompetitive.



I agree. One or 2 inside type Mids would have been good.
More than half the list should be midfielders or capable of playing midfield.
In a list of 44 . At least 22 should be mids

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Yep ... absolutely agree.


We have too many talls on our list.

Talls at Carlton.

Casboult
C Curnow
Weitering
Marchbank
Macreadie
Jones
Rowe
Kerr
Plowman
McKay
Kreuzer
Phillips
Lobbe
A Silvagni
De Koning
Glasse-McCasker

Next year we get another in Ben Silvagni.

We need to load up on midfielders ... Oh Really? Sorry ... stating the obvious.

Immediate purge required at end of year.

Row, Lobbe ... not because I don't think they are of value ... we just need to get rid of some talls.
Glasse-McCasker
Graham, Kerridge, Mullet, O'Shea, Polson, Shaw because they are List Cloggers.



You were going so well till you spoiled it by putting a 3rd gamer in the category of list clogger.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:18 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2035
scottopee wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Let’s face facts, whatever list management decisions Carlton makes it is going to be a 3rd tier team for some while. I don’t watch the NRL but at least their games are much more unpredictable.

The AFL should stop worrying about gender fluidity, refugees, religious minorities and being social justice warriors and worry about why the game is made up of 3 tier teams as early as 4 matches into the season.

1st tier- Sydney (year after year and never in a “rebuild”), GWS, Richmond etc teams competing for flag

Btw Why does Sydney never need to rebuild? Are the AFL’s equalising measures really working?

2nd tier- generally competitive against most teams and perhaps building for 1st tier eg Port

3rd tier- teams that have no hope of victory against 1st and 2nd tier teams for 90% of time eg Carlton, Brisbane, Gold Coast

Why are these teams cellar dwellers year after year? Is it all due to poor list management decisions or is there something structurally wrong with AFL?

Do good players want to get out of these clubs ASAP? Free agency? Is the draft really an equalising mechanism?

NRL = unpredictable by 30% more where underdogs win
AFL = does anyone really want to tip Carlton against West Coast? Or Brisbane vs Geelong? We know the results of these matches before they are played.

The game has a problem. Results are easy to pick. Carlton nailing one draft pick per year isn’t going to fix anything.

In an entertainment business you need unpredictability. At least 2 to 3 matches each weekend are highly predictable in terms of the result. The AFL should focus on this.


So you picked Richmond and the Bulldogs to win flags the last 2 years? Nothing predictable in that.
Someone has to be bottom and because of a ineptitude the last 5 years its us. Agree 1 draft pick doesn't do anything and PP should come back for any side finishing 2-3 years in a row finishing bottom 3 etc.


My argument is that we are sold a pup with this PR message - “we just need to stay fat and “rebuild”. Tier 3 clubs (btw Richmond & Bulldogs weren’t tier 3) never get a chance to fully “rebuild” as the vultures swoop on tier 3 clubs’ top players and recruit them via free agency, trading & other mechanisms.

Henderson & Tuohy are cases in point. They went trophy hunting. Carlton got little in return.

Conversely, tier 1 clubs stay Tier 1 clubs. Sydney has made what? 18 of the last 20 finals series. Geelong & Hawthorn similar. I thought the AFL said “equalisation” is working. It ain’t. Those 3 clubs will make finals again barring injury.

Get rid of the draft or modify it. Do something as each week there are a lot of dead rubbers played. Who wants to watch 3 80 plus point thrashing’s every week?

The biggest question is - will the AFL allow Lynch to leave their project club Gold Coast..? Why does Carlton pay an equalisation tax when they have lost 14 of their last 15 matches? Why does Hawthorn make millions in Tasy? Equalisation- it’s a lie.

Carlton will be a cellar dweller for many more years in this “equalised” competition. There is no rebuild at Carlton when established players such as Gibbs, Tuohy & Henderson want to get out. A house without foundations is just waiting to be blown over.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:58 pm
Posts: 1636
tap in 79 wrote:
scottopee wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Let’s face facts, whatever list management decisions Carlton makes it is going to be a 3rd tier team for some while. I don’t watch the NRL but at least their games are much more unpredictable.

The AFL should stop worrying about gender fluidity, refugees, religious minorities and being social justice warriors and worry about why the game is made up of 3 tier teams as early as 4 matches into the season.

1st tier- Sydney (year after year and never in a “rebuild”), GWS, Richmond etc teams competing for flag

Btw Why does Sydney never need to rebuild? Are the AFL’s equalising measures really working?

2nd tier- generally competitive against most teams and perhaps building for 1st tier eg Port

3rd tier- teams that have no hope of victory against 1st and 2nd tier teams for 90% of time eg Carlton, Brisbane, Gold Coast

Why are these teams cellar dwellers year after year? Is it all due to poor list management decisions or is there something structurally wrong with AFL?

Do good players want to get out of these clubs ASAP? Free agency? Is the draft really an equalising mechanism?

NRL = unpredictable by 30% more where underdogs win
AFL = does anyone really want to tip Carlton against West Coast? Or Brisbane vs Geelong? We know the results of these matches before they are played.

The game has a problem. Results are easy to pick. Carlton nailing one draft pick per year isn’t going to fix anything.

In an entertainment business you need unpredictability. At least 2 to 3 matches each weekend are highly predictable in terms of the result. The AFL should focus on this.


So you picked Richmond and the Bulldogs to win flags the last 2 years? Nothing predictable in that.
Someone has to be bottom and because of a ineptitude the last 5 years its us. Agree 1 draft pick doesn't do anything and PP should come back for any side finishing 2-3 years in a row finishing bottom 3 etc.


My argument is that we are sold a pup with this PR message - “we just need to stay fat and “rebuild”. Tier 3 clubs (btw Richmond & Bulldogs weren’t tier 3) never get a chance to fully “rebuild” as the vultures swoop on tier 3 clubs’ top players and recruit them via free agency, trading & other mechanisms.

Henderson & Tuohy are cases in point. They went trophy hunting. Carlton got little in return.

Conversely, tier 1 clubs stay Tier 1 clubs. Sydney has made what? 18 of the last 20 finals series. Geelong & Hawthorn similar. I thought the AFL said “equalisation” is working. It ain’t. Those 3 clubs will make finals again barring injury.

Get rid of the draft or modify it. Do something as each week there are a lot of dead rubbers played. Who wants to watch 3 80 plus point thrashing’s every week?

The biggest question is - will the AFL allow Lynch to leave their project club Gold Coast..? Why does Carlton pay an equalisation tax when they have lost 14 of their last 15 matches? Why does Hawthorn make millions in Tasy? Equalisation- it’s a lie.

Carlton will be a cellar dweller for many more years in this “equalised” competition. There is no rebuild at Carlton when established players such as Gibbs, Tuohy & Henderson want to get out. A house without foundations is just waiting to be blown over.

:clap: Yeah I have a feeling that they will do everything they can to ensure Lynch stays, including paying the whole salary outside the cap.
Does anybody really think some of these top teams aren't at least 1mill over the cap? cough cough GWS. Swans
Tell me Essendon* are going to think twice about going 1.5 mill over the cap after what they have already pulled lol.
This is dirty dirty corrupt sport, it stinks to high heaven. We wont go anywhere again till we take the gloves off.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20312
Location: North of the border
The biggest concern for me with the list management is that the majority of recycled players brought in were either over coming injuries or get injured and can't get on the paddock long enough to get any consistency in their game.
And it has been happening for years.
Warnock
Thomas
Hendo
Pickett
KJ
Marchbank
Docherty
Lang
Rowe
Byrne
Phillips
Lobbe
Wiley

And I am sure there is more.

They enter seasons with limited preseason and struggled to see out seasons when they played

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:58 pm
Posts: 1636
Yeah it always bothered me that a lot of our recruits were injury prone, particularly the GWS ones. It's also why I didn't agree with letting a solid durable player like Touhy go.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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this is now getting really weird....

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
dannyboy wrote:
this is now getting really weird....


Yep.

Bring in kids and develop them.
Top players have currency and we trade for picks.
A few top end players want success now and leave and we bottom out.
Develop kids and when they are ready bring in the FA's and Big trades.

We have quality kids.

Carlton's list could be described in financial terms as asset rich, cash poor.
It will come good. But obviously not soon.
Enjoy the ride. If this one fails, a lot will be opting out!

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
bondiblue wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
this is now getting really weird....


Yep.

Bring in kids and develop them.
Top players have currency and we trade for picks.
A few top end players want success now and leave and we bottom out.
Develop kids and when they are ready bring in the FA's and Big trades.

We have quality kids.

Carlton's list could be described in financial terms as asset rich, cash poor.
It will come good. But obviously not soon.
Enjoy the ride. If this one fails, a lot will be opting out!

If this one fails, Bondi, the club as we know it will fold and be forced to merge or relocate.
The fact the AFL has given us NOTHING for a decade by comparison to Hawks (Waverley), Demons (Roos salary + ridiculous compo for FA) Brisbane (PP galore plus extra salary cap), Sydney GWS (Extra salary cap disguised as COLA), Essendon* (the entire trying to isolate them from the drug scandal plus personnel concessions) and so on make it appear to me that they are happy for us to go under.
We have made a rod for our own backs along the way to be sure but we have to make this work pretty well on our own, just as we have always done.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:42 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
I get good mid age players want to leave.

We need to get some quality 22-26 year old mids into the list asap. This is the most important part of the ground and the one we are most lacking in.

But the problem is nobody wants to come to us .

So we have to use our picks in the draft on young mids who are ready to impact. Strong of body and mind. Wines types.

No more skinny kids. We've enough of them

That's the only way out of this hole IMO.

Get a PP.

Go to draft with

1
19
22?
29?

Draft an entire midfield

Bulls

Tough lads

Cripps is tired of tags, I got that from a mate of his. He needs support it he will flee.


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