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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1783
Location: Geelong
toddkurnski wrote:
keogh wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Keogh that's simply not true.

Kennedy was part of Judd deal. Judd wasn't a bad player
Cripps traded for 2nd round pick
Redden traded for 1st round pick - 17 I think
Jetta - swapped for a decent ruckman in Sinclair
Vardy was v cheap agree


Kennedy and Masten still play
Judd is long gone Armfield
It took WC a while but they go there
McGovern has cost us TWO picks in the 20s

It’s the quick fix all over again

I don’t think you read my post thoroughly enough
Cripps cost 2 picks in the 40s
And WC got one pick back from the aunts

All smart trades
Compare Carlton to West Coast intl the last 8 years
There is your definitive answer

How did they get Norm Smith medallist Sheuy and also Darling? Wasn't smart trading. Was the equalisation no longer available that would have got us McGovern. Again, no one will ever notice the leg up they got. All of a sudden they are genuises? They have done well. But don't think it's just by being so much smarter. The got some very nice assistance there.

Look at the last 9 premiers and see 6 had PPs playing for them, one COLA and one a raft of F/S gained under the old system. Leaving the Dogs somehow snatching one. All deserving premiers, but don't think that a little AFL assistance did play an insignificant role in their triumph.

I think the price for McGovern looks a little high. But I also know that picks in the 20s have a low strike rate and we already have plenty of talented kids on the list. I also think Setterfield came probably a little cheap.

So overall, plenty of talented kids already, two more players traded in with two years in the system who are in our best 22 for a decade, a shot at the best kid in the country to come and the best player high performance manager in the AFL to get them on the park firing.

No panic, no messiahs, no farms sold, no players lost to other teams, no murmurs of discontent in a playing group coming off 2 wins, everyone ready for preseason, cash and future picks still available for a Whitfield, Bont, Coniglio or the equivalent to slot into the side in 2020.

Have a look at the list at the end of 2015 and the list today. If this comes off, this will be the greatest exhibition of list management ever seen. That's how bad we were. Not hyperbole.


No one wanted to be traded ... in fact our best were keen to sign early. This more than anything gives me hope that Bolton & Carlton are doing something right.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Posts: 4034
Ha Ha boys and girls
Well anyway see what happens in the next phase
if the clubs development

Oh by the way WC won the flag
With no Nick Nat
No Gaff
No Shepherd
All top 10 draft picks
Why
Depth
You don’t get depth by trading 2 or 3 for one

Hawthorn made the finals but are miles of winning a flag
Competitive but way off the holy grail

Let’s hope McGovern is a star and releases Charlie Curnow
To the middle

As I said interesting times ahead


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 11092
Location: Bondi Beach
Great post keogh,

Good to know more about the man behind the keyboard.

Ive got a similar story, only diff I was in my mid 20s and they were paying me to ski for 6 weeks a year and other intestate trip, and let me run a business overseas, which I had to go to, leaving teaching. A lot of politics, thats the truth

You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them...

My 5 year stint was one I didnt apply for nor one I waned to leave.
Thems the breaks.

Back to footy.

Forget about the past keogh
Start from the day we signed up MLG, Judd as Director, Bolton as Head Coach, SOS as the List Manager, Liddle as CEO, Lloyd in recruitment and Andrew Russell in Player Conditioning/

FMD we have come a long way in tyhe last 3 years, Give the club some credit mate.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:34 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 9612
BigKev wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
keogh wrote:
sticksaftersiren87 wrote:
Keogh that's simply not true.

Kennedy was part of Judd deal. Judd wasn't a bad player
Cripps traded for 2nd round pick
Redden traded for 1st round pick - 17 I think
Jetta - swapped for a decent ruckman in Sinclair
Vardy was v cheap agree


Kennedy and Masten still play
Judd is long gone Armfield
It took WC a while but they go there
McGovern has cost us TWO picks in the 20s

It’s the quick fix all over again

I don’t think you read my post thoroughly enough
Cripps cost 2 picks in the 40s
And WC got one pick back from the aunts

All smart trades
Compare Carlton to West Coast intl the last 8 years
There is your definitive answer

How did they get Norm Smith medallist Sheuy and also Darling? Wasn't smart trading. Was the equalisation no longer available that would have got us McGovern. Again, no one will ever notice the leg up they got. All of a sudden they are genuises? They have done well. But don't think it's just by being so much smarter. The got some very nice assistance there.

Look at the last 9 premiers and see 6 had PPs playing for them, one COLA and one a raft of F/S gained under the old system. Leaving the Dogs somehow snatching one. All deserving premiers, but don't think that a little AFL assistance did play an insignificant role in their triumph.

I think the price for McGovern looks a little high. But I also know that picks in the 20s have a low strike rate and we already have plenty of talented kids on the list. I also think Setterfield came probably a little cheap.

So overall, plenty of talented kids already, two more players traded in with two years in the system who are in our best 22 for a decade, a shot at the best kid in the country to come and the best player high performance manager in the AFL to get them on the park firing.

No panic, no messiahs, no farms sold, no players lost to other teams, no murmurs of discontent in a playing group coming off 2 wins, everyone ready for preseason, cash and future picks still available for a Whitfield, Bont, Coniglio or the equivalent to slot into the side in 2020.

Have a look at the list at the end of 2015 and the list today. If this comes off, this will be the greatest exhibition of list management ever seen. That's how bad we were. Not hyperbole.


No one wanted to be traded ... in fact our best were keen to sign early. This more than anything gives me hope that Bolton & Carlton are doing something right.

I think that was the biggest plus for us this trade period. Not one player requested to be traded, which is a nice change for us.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:34 am 
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Rod McGregor
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Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:36 am
Posts: 150
keogh wrote:
Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise




To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


Nankervis, Prestia, Caddy.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:35 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Posts: 28188
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Whoops

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 3214
Franc de Borges wrote:
keogh wrote:
Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise




To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


Nankervis, Prestia, Caddy.


Clape and Rice.

Collingwood this year - Varcoe, Crisp, Adams, Howe, Greenwood, Mayne, Aish etc

Sydney Swans - Kennedy, Rhys Shaw etc

Luke Ball to Collingwood 2010

I could go on...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 13075
Yes, but besides them, there was no one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 28188
Location: COMFORTABLY DISSATISFIED
Image

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#GUILTY


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 20406
:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am
Posts: 21747
Kennedy - Judd
Jetta - Sinclair
Redden - First round pick

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dane's trolling again


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4034
You guys are either thick as bricks or dont read my posts

I’m all for trading picks for players so long as it’s smart
Trading an established player for an established player
based on the teams needs is smart as well

I don’t agree with the McGovern or Fasolo trades

With the McGovern trade we have given up 2 picks in the 20s
Plus a mature player who could be an X factor in McAdam
For a future 3 Rd rounder and a bloke who has maybe reached his peak
Already is undersized and really hasn’t achieved the heights
To warrant given up 2 potentially good mids

It’s goes against what the club said it would do
The messiah approach

Fasolo isn’t good enough just like Mullett and O’Shea
That’s proven

All the trades you guys have mentioned
we’re good trades
One for one
Restricted free agents
With Mayne for instance
A free agent who went from a forward to defender
at Collingwood
Can’t see Fasolo playing anyway but forward unless
He gets super fit to play midfield
A huge risk
I would have picked McAdam with the AFL concessions we got
Happy with the Newman trade
The Setterfield is ok but let’s see how could he is with a decent run
With injury

The McGovern trade is [REDACTED] unless he improves his output
I would have picked 2 mids with the talent on offer in this draft




As


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4034
keogh wrote:
You guys are either thick as bricks or dont read my posts

I’m all for trading picks for players so long as it’s smart
Trading an established player for an established player
based on the teams needs is smart as well

I don’t agree with the McGovern or Fasolo trades

With the McGovern trade we have given up 2 picks in the 20s
Plus a mature player who could be an X factor in McAdam
For a future 3 Rd rounder and a bloke who has maybe reached his peak
Already is undersized and really hasn’t achieved the heights
To warrant given up 2 potentially good mids

It’s goes against what the club said it would do
The messiah approach

Fasolo isn’t good enough just like Mullett and O’Shea
That’s proven

All the trades you guys have mentioned
we’re good trades
One for one
Restricted free agents
With Mayne for instance
A free agent who went from a forward to defender
at Collingwood
Can’t see Fasolo playing anyway but forward unless
He gets super fit to play midfield
A huge risk
I would have picked McAdam with the AFL concessions we got
Happy with the Newman trade
The Setterfield is ok but let’s see how good he is with a decent run
With injury

The McGovern trade is [REDACTED] unless he improves his output
I would have picked 2 mids with the talent on offer in this draft




As


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:17 am
Posts: 11262
Location: threeohfivethree
keogh wrote:
keogh wrote:
You guys are either thick as bricks or dont read my posts

I’m all for trading picks for players so long as it’s smart
Trading an established player for an established player
based on the teams needs is smart as well

I don’t agree with the McGovern or Fasolo trades

With the McGovern trade we have given up 2 picks in the 20s
Plus a mature player who could be an X factor in McAdam
For a future 3 Rd rounder and a bloke who has maybe reached his peak
Already is undersized and really hasn’t achieved the heights
To warrant given up 2 potentially good mids

It’s goes against what the club said it would do
The messiah approach

Fasolo isn’t good enough just like Mullett and O’Shea
That’s proven

All the trades you guys have mentioned
we’re good trades
One for one
Restricted free agents
With Mayne for instance
A free agent who went from a forward to defender
at Collingwood
Can’t see Fasolo playing anyway but forward unless
He gets super fit to play midfield
A huge risk
I would have picked McAdam with the AFL concessions we got
Happy with the Newman trade
The Setterfield is ok but let’s see how good he is with a decent run
With injury

The McGovern trade is [REDACTED] unless he improves his output
I would have picked 2 mids with the talent on offer in this draft




As


It wasn’t that good a post first time around.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 2364
Franc de Borges wrote:
keogh wrote:
Have a look at West Coasts premiership team
The majority of that team was drafted by the club as kids
And many of those picks were not first round
The trades they did to get
Cripps
Kennedy
Jetta
Redden
Cards
were good trades where they didn’t give up much at all

That’s how you build up your list to win a flag

Not doing crazy trades like the Mc Govern trade
Or the Shield deal

Throw in Wingard O’Meara even Mitchell
Trades like these keep you competitive in the short term
by long term don’t win you a flag

Give me evidence to suggest otherwise




To put it bluntly it’s plain dickens dumb


Nankervis, Prestia, Caddy.


Wells, Spalding, Manton, Diesel...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 4034
Someone mentioned Josh Kennedy being traded to counter
my argument
MCGlynn and Kennedy for
pick 39 46 70

McGovern and a future 3rd rounder
For McAdam and pick 13 ( from Sydney for pick 26 and 28)

The case rests your honour


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:28 pm
Posts: 27
Someone mentioned Josh Kennedy being traded to counter
my argument
MCGlynn and Kennedy for
pick 39 46 70

McGovern and a future 3rd rounder
For McAdam and pick 13 ( from Sydney for pick 26 and 28)

The case rests your honour

Hey Keogh your not getting much love. I agree that we slightly overpaid for McGovern but if you commit to someone you have to get the trade done. Especially in our situation.
Also you say we gave up pick 13. Adelaide gave Sydney their pick 40 to facilitate the deal so we were not getting pick 13 without Adelaide ponying up the extra pick.
If you believe the scuttle butt the bones of the trade was agreed in principle around August.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 11092
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
Yes, but besides them, there was no one.


There's the "etc" you may have missed.

Let me help:

2 x 1st Rounders for Treloar
1 x 1st Rounder for Adams
etc

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 11092
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
Someone mentioned Josh Kennedy being traded to counter
my argument
MCGlynn and Kennedy for
pick 39 46 70

McGovern and a future 3rd rounder
For McAdam and pick 13 ( from Sydney for pick 26 and 28)

The case rests your honour


...and Adeliade had tp throw in pick 40 in the mix to create the same points value of Pick 13.

Kennedy was excess at Hawthorn.

You seem to pick and choose how you use/argue your point.

You're wrong keogh. Plus you are still fixed on the wicked ways of 'old' Carlton.

McGovern for pick 13 is a win for us. McAdam wasn't even necessary once Crows got Pick 13.

We need mature bodies. We have enough kids.
We've cashed in all our chips to get quality kids.
We have them now, and we will also add 18yo Walsh.

Lets move on, and understand we have a very young, undeveloped, immature list and they are not ready for finals....but they will be. Like you, I can feel it in my bones.

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Last edited by bondiblue on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:58 pm
Posts: 1380
By most accounts the Sturt lad Shane McAdam was probably going to go late second round. Some rated top 20.
So we gave up in reality a first round pick (13) and the equivalent of a second round pick (30-40). A fairly high price.
Now, people are saying " But yeah he's contracted so you have to pay extras". However this is misleading due to the circumstances we all know about. He was never going to play there next year, they admitted that; he said that. So we were in fact in a better position than what people realize.
We should have and could have got a pick back in the 40 range I reckon, easy to say in hindsight of course, and perhaps this was in part due to the Shiel drama going on and just wanting to get it done.
So he better be worth it....can see the logic in what we did, but if he has no impact in 2 years time and some of those second round mids kick on within 2 years a la Zach Merrett it isn't going to look so good. Because at the end of the day what we still need more than anything are mids...arrgh feel like I say this every year.


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