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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Intestine transplant coming up.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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BigKev wrote:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-06-15/comment-why-murphy-should-consider-the-dees

On the theme of the overall impact of free agency there's a comment in this article which, if correct, should cause great concern at AFL house.
It reads:

Industry sources estimate he could command about $600,000 a season to stay at Carlton, most likely on a two-year deal. That's still a sizeable cut from his existing four-year contract that is understood to be worth, on average, around $750,000 a year, but a team like Melbourne would be more likely to offer him between $450,000 and $500,000.

So $200,000 to $300,000 over two years looms as the price Murphy must pay to have a final tilt at a flag.


We've discussed how hopeless the FA system is as a bottom club because we have to pay so much more to attract good players, but this is much worse. This is suggesting that we should also expect to pay a lot more just to keep our good players. If true then bottom clubs better get used to being bottom clubs under the current system.

Perhaps in addition to giving bottom clubs lower draft picks etc the AFL needs to consider a formula for granting these clubs additional salary cap space.


This perfectly sums up how the free agency system works. It makes loyal servants into products.

Under the present system, Carlton’s Culture and standards means less than trading to another club being assisted by the AFL. Keep Murph. He is an uplifting symbol of all the pain we have gone thru over the last 20 years.. we have shared his pain..and what’s more-it stuffs right up the AFL agenda of giving subtle support to Melbourne. Stuff them, stuff Hawthorn, stuff Sydney.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:32 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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hey, tap. I was just wondering: who are your top three most disliked teams?

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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We'll probably recruit some tall, slow, second string forwards.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Robert Walls

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We got the best of Murph but his shoulders mean he's now a seriously flawed elite on baller. Get a solid mid and a draft pick for him and I'll take that :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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cortez wrote:
We'll probably recruit some tall, slow, second string forwards.


I can guarantee you we won’t get Rory Sloane, who has apparently nominated Hawthorn as his preferred destination club. I wonder why that is?? What a massive, startling surprise!!

McKay said Carlton is in the market for A grade talent this year. Well let’s see if they get anywhere close to Sloane. We all know the answer for that. A grade players chose A grade clubs. C grade clubs can please themselves in trading. A Mullett is around the corner.

Re:Murph= keep at all costs. Stand for club culture over and above expediency. Not a club of revolving doors.


Last edited by tap in 79 on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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robertbb wrote:
hey, tap. I was just wondering: who are your top three most disliked teams?


Any of the clubs that have been given a leg up by the AFL
Eg Hawthorn, Sydney and Geelong.

Richmond, West Coast and Bulldogs built their team with some level of integrity considering how dubious the system is.

People also forget than Adelaide seriously breached the salary cap with Tippett scenario but they have still built a solid team whilst losing Dangerfield and getting nothing. Good recruiting all considered. Heading for a fall now though.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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GWS wrote:
Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:


If it is “obsessional” to be angry about watching 20 years of crap Carlton teams getting pummeled week after week so be it.

GWS- you tell me why Carlton is so shite? And don’t say just poor recruiting. Why are there so many misses with Carlton’s recruiting? Is a draft of 18 year olds the best option? Is equalisation working in your opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:06 am 
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Harry Vallence
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tap in 79 wrote:
GWS wrote:
Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:


If it is “obsessional” to be angry about watching 20 years of crap Carlton teams getting pummeled week after week so be it.

GWS- you tell me why Carlton is so shite? And don’t say just poor recruiting. Why are there so many misses with Carlton’s recruiting? Is a draft of 18 year olds the best option? Is equalisation working in your opinion?


If the draft can work for Adelaide, West Coast and the Western Bulldogs (teams you note have built successful teams with integrity), then the draft isn’t the problem, we are.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:17 am 
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Harry Vallence
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cecil89 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
GWS wrote:
Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:


If it is “obsessional” to be angry about watching 20 years of crap Carlton teams getting pummeled week after week so be it.

GWS- you tell me why Carlton is so shite? And don’t say just poor recruiting. Why are there so many misses with Carlton’s recruiting? Is a draft of 18 year olds the best option? Is equalisation working in your opinion?


If the draft can work for Adelaide, West Coast and the Western Bulldogs (teams you note have built successful teams with integrity), then the draft isn’t the problem, we are.


I agree it is partly poor recruiting, yet It is a gamble getting any 18 year old.

Poor team selection as well eg Walls mentioned when they dropped McKay for Sydney game. I agree with his point. Every mistake is magnified when tier 3.

Yet All three clubs -Adelaide, WCoast, Bulldogs, didn’t spend year after year after year in the basement doing a full rebuild. Once you do what they euphemistically refer as a “full rebuild” the system (especially since the introduction of free agency)doesn’t allow a steady climb for a tier 3 club. I basically agree with what David King said all those months ago.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:33 am 
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Ken Hunter

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Which of our past 3 drafts would you say we failed at Cecil?
Personally I'd suggest we've selected very well.

As for dropping McKay, that's a lazy criticism from Wallsy IMO.
He isn't playing well enough. Yes he has kicked some goals but his defensive pressure is non existent. He also struggles to work within a team structure. He spoils team mates, draws his opponent into their space etc.
He has the attributes to be a good AFL player but he still has a lot to learn.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:59 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Blue Vain wrote:
Which of our past 3 drafts would you say we failed at Cecil?
Personally I'd suggest we've selected very well.

As for dropping McKay, that's a lazy criticism from Wallsy IMO.
He isn't playing well enough. Yes he has kicked some goals but his defensive pressure is non existent. He also struggles to work within a team structure. He spoils team mates, draws his opponent into their space etc.
He has the attributes to be a good AFL player but he still has a lot to learn.


So does Levi and he’s 28yo

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:09 am 
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Ken Hunter
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tap in 79 wrote:
GWS wrote:
Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:


If it is “obsessional” to be angry about watching 20 years of crap Carlton teams getting pummeled week after week so be it.

GWS- you tell me why Carlton is so shite? And don’t say just poor recruiting. Why are there so many misses with Carlton’s recruiting? Is a draft of 18 year olds the best option? Is equalisation working in your opinion?


It’s not obsessional to be angry about the last 20 years of CFC performances but it is obsessional to keep screaming the same thing over and over again at people who’ve heard it a million times.

We’ve been shit for years for a multitude of reasons of our own making that have been done to death but if you can’t see the difference in what we’re doing with the draft now compared to a few years back then there’s nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Keep yelling at the system though if it makes you feel better. There might still be one person on the planet who hasn’t heard your spiel.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:45 am 
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John Nicholls
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pardon?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:49 am 
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Harry Vallence

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1) If McKay works out, I am confident in the list we are building. And we need to be sure by the end of the year whether or not we believe he will work out. B/c this will affect our approach to the draft: if he is looking the goods, perhaps we trade our 1st round pick (no.1) for 2 lower in the top 10, giving up one of the top three KPPs, in favour of two top tier mids?

2) Wallsy’s criticism of the reject recruits is not really very incisive. We replaced a bunch of definite 3rd raters with a bunch of possible 2nd raters. We had a bunch of 3rd rate list cloggers but can’t replace them all with top 10draft talent. So, we traded to get a few additional 1st & 2nd rounders, and then replacing the certain dead weight players with those who just might be able to play a role. I would say not many of these recruits are worse than those they replaced and a couple of them are doing a bit better. Plowman doing well overall, jury still out on Lamb, Pickett & Garlett. Wright pulling his weight. I reckon Kennedy will be good for us but might still question the price we paid. And are Marchbank, Jones, Docherty incl in his list of rejects?

3) I hink we are overdoing the criticism generally. Collingwood list and coaching was written off last year. Richmond had the worst captain and underperforming coach in 2016.
Yes, it is bad but the coaches will learn from this and the players too. We’ve got a young coach and a group of young players with not much in the way of senior level leaders well versed in the game plan. As distinct from freo who had a ‘younger’ list but still had the best player in the comp + a few others well versed in Lyons game plan. I clearly remember Judd carrying us across the line in a few matches and Fyfe, Neale, Sandi lift freo. And Lyon is an experienced senior coach. our effort was undoubtedly shite and that needs to be addressed. Our attitude is a longstanding cultural problem. It is also interesting looking at the sooftish muscle tone of our players vs some of the other harder teams.
But, our poor performances this year do not mean we are on the wrong track altogether.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:21 am 
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Harry Vallence
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GWS wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
GWS wrote:
Sometimes the internet appears to be an extraordinary piece of infrastructure connecting individuals and communities in ways unimagined only thirty years ago.

But most of the time it looks like a microphone for the obsessional.

I’m not sure which gives me greater pleasure... :lol:


If it is “obsessional” to be angry about watching 20 years of crap Carlton teams getting pummeled week after week so be it.

GWS- you tell me why Carlton is so shite? And don’t say just poor recruiting. Why are there so many misses with Carlton’s recruiting? Is a draft of 18 year olds the best option? Is equalisation working in your opinion?


It’s not obsessional to be angry about the last 20 years of CFC performances but it is obsessional to keep screaming the same thing over and over again at people who’ve heard it a million times.

We’ve been shit for years for a multitude of reasons of our own making that have been done to death but if you can’t see the difference in what we’re doing with the draft now compared to a few years back then there’s nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Keep yelling at the system though if it makes you feel better. There might still be one person on the planet who hasn’t heard your spiel.


The difference between you and me is I don’t believe in the draft fairytale anymore. You obviously are sold on the lie that this is the first time Carlton “has truly invested in the draft”. Three top picks in three consecutive drafts and hey presto!!

What if other bottom clubs eg Fremantle pick better players than you? Have a better coach? More team spirit. Carlton has stripped its club to the bones. One good draft pick or even two or three won’t change a thing when clubs like Sydney never need to drop down the ladder. Players like Florent etc would struggle at Carlton but because they are at Sydney they are aware of the standards required and have good players around them so confidence is built.

You still haven’t answered my questions. Why don’t Sydney, Hawthorn and Geelong ever have to rebuild? Is equalisation working? Don’t worry. I am sure the draft mechanism helps bottom clubs climb up the ladder quickly. All Carlton needs to do is “invest in young talent & trust the system.”


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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tap in 79 wrote:
cortez wrote:
We'll probably recruit some tall, slow, second string forwards.


I can guarantee you we won’t get Rory Sloane, who has apparently nominated Hawthorn as his preferred destination club. I wonder why that is?? What a massive, startling surprise!!

McKay said Carlton is in the market for A grade talent this year. Well let’s see if they get anywhere close to Sloane. We all know the answer for that. A grade players chose A grade clubs. C grade clubs can please themselves in trading. A Mullett is around the corner.

Re:Murph= keep at all costs. Stand for club culture over and above expediency. Not a club of revolving doors.


I sort of agree with you, re Murphy - not "at all costs", but certainly I hope we offer him a "reasonable" deal and the decision as to what is "reasonable" is influenced by the service he's given the club. This sort of thing is seen by all at the club.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

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Quote:
Why don’t Sydney, Hawthorn and Geelong ever have to rebuild?


Just my 2c worth.

All three have a stable coach and off field back office for the past 10 or so years.

Sydney have their academy which has netted them 1st round picks for next to nothing. They have been outstanding with rookie listed player development. They will continue to contend for the next 4/5 years. They trade for need and get it right.

Hawthorn - their successes in the Clarkson years are epic. But don'f forget that Clarkson was nearly necked by Kennett after his first 3 years. Big Jeff had to be talked in to keeping him...
They also got the draft right - Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Rioli, Burchall, Lewis etc... All high picks that set them up for 10 years. Add in Burgoyne, Lake, Dew, Gibson from other clubs etc...
Plus rookie gold in Mitchell.
So you have generational players in Hodge, Franklin, Rioli, Mitchell (Sam) goes along way.
The real test for Hawthorn is now - their past successes is fuelling them. Just my opinion but I see them as 12th to 6th for the next 5years unless Clarkson is a genius and then I'm wrong and he is right with their current list strategy.

Geelong - built their dynasty through the draft and father son picks.
Have topped up with high end talent in free agency and giving away first round draft picks. Lots of good will abounds with Dangerfield (gun), Selwood (once in a generation player) and Ablett (maybe the best mid-fielder of his generation) to see what they can do but they are ageing and have 1/2 years left before they fall off the ledge as potent threat.
So it is now or never for Geelong. I can't see them kicking or defending a winning score in finals...

I see Carlton as the 2006 Hawks, the 2005 Cats. Whether we have once in a generation talent to become a grandfinal winning team wont be known until 2020 and beyond. But I can't see an alternative to the strategy that has been followed with player recruitment - you can argue over individual trades/players but I don't think you can successfully argue against the strategy.

As for the coaching, that is the area that I question. Is Bolton the new Clarkson, Thompson, Hardwick? I don't know. But one thing is for sure if he is got rid of in the next 12-24 months we will never know...


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