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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am
Posts: 1626
Rexy wrote:
Rod Waddell wrote:
Rexy wrote:
rather die on our feet than live on our knees


Sure just like:

Swans-cola
Cats-picking up free agents, multi million govt handouts
Hawks-Tassie deal, free agents, 2 years of PP tanking
Demons-AFL investment in footy dept and in exec positions
GWS & GC don’t get me started


do you admire those clubs for the handouts they've received ?


Rexy l despise ALL AFL clubs with the exception of our beloved blues.

Every club will look for an edge exploit and take it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:52 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:35 pm
Posts: 2421
Rod Waddell wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Rod Waddell wrote:
Rexy wrote:
rather die on our feet than live on our knees


Sure just like:

Swans-cola
Cats-picking up free agents, multi million govt handouts
Hawks-Tassie deal, free agents, 2 years of PP tanking
Demons-AFL investment in footy dept and in exec positions
GWS & GC don’t get me started


do you admire those clubs for the handouts they've received ?


Rexy l despise ALL AFL clubs with the exception of our beloved blues.

Every club will look for an edge exploit and take it.


It’s just taking advantage of the system we were the last club to embrace - accept might be a better word.
Add North to that list with their Tassie adventure and access to the best local kid the state has produced in at least 5 years.
Tough talk might be a smart marketing move but why cut your nose off to spite your face? There’s precious little reputation to save now anyway.
Club needs every bit of help it can get.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:23 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 6783
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:26 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4517
Location: Blisstonia.
Rod Waddell wrote:
Rexy wrote:
rather die on our feet than live on our knees


Sure just like:

Swans-cola
Cats-picking up free agents, multi million govt handouts
Hawks-Tassie deal, free agents, 2 years of PP tanking
Demons-AFL investment in footy dept and in exec positions
GWS & GC don’t get me started


No club has yet gained a significant advantage through free agency.

Under Free Agency, Geelong gained Scott Selwood, Jarrod Rivers and Patrick Dangerfield. Whilst it was for unders they still needed to trade picks for Dangerfield as he was a restricted Free Agent.

Under Free Agency, Hawthorn has gained Ricky Henderson, Ty Vickery and James Frawley and lost Lance Franklin.

Also their second year of priority pick tanking only gained them Ellis and Dowler so has no bearing on their current situation, but hey let's all keep blaming the system for our current situation....

My thoughts on asking for a PP is like borrowing cash from your in-laws, but each to their own.

The point that continually is being missed is a) The assumption that is wasn't asked for behind closed doors and rejected and b) The assumption that a deal hasn't already been made for assistance in another area instead which won't be as transparent to the supporters of the other 17 clubs to prevent "a mutiny" and "outrage".

First and foremost if this rebuild is going to work, it will be dependent on whether all of the right people are currently in place to see it through, not how many more early picks we aquire.

The formula is simple.

If the right people are in place ie coaches, recruiters, board, medical staff, fitness staff etc then another pick at #19 won't make any difference as we already have enough early picks on the list to add to the crop that we receive next year for them to work with.

On the flip side if the wrong people are in place - which seems to be the common theme from many that are screaming for a PP - then an extra pick will not make a scrap of difference. Would be akin to giving a gambling addict $1000 to go get rehab.

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Last edited by Blueboy74 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:32 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Posts: 16661
Location: Left Cuckistan
I'm with you. I reckon we have already asked for and received assistance in another area. There is already an amount of talk around country footy circles that the TAC is going the way of the dodo and zones are going to come back in. With clubs responsible for development in 'their' zone.

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Left wing moralists
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They shit me no end


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:47 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Posts: 5819
Its all turned to shit since Trigg got the lemonade and sarse.Still bewildered by this decision.If marketing was the problem,why was Liddle not employed in this capacity.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:57 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 28221
Mickstar wrote:
Its all turned to shit since Trigg got the lemonade and sarse.Still bewildered by this decision.If marketing was the problem,why was Liddle not employed in this capacity.


It's hard from the outside to know the politics and personalty clashes going on behind the curtain. Does your head in trying to work it all out.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:58 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10061
Blueboy74 wrote:

Under Free Agency, Geelong gained Scott Selwood, Jarrod Rivers and Patrick Dangerfield. Whilst it was for unders they still needed to trade picks for Dangerfield as he was a restricted Free Agent.

Under Free Agency, Hawthorn has gained Ricky Henderson, Ty Vickery and James Frawley and lost Lance Franklin.

Also their second year of priority pick tanking only gained them Ellis and Dowler so has no bearing on their current situation, but hey let's all keep blaming the system for our current situation....

My thoughts on asking for a PP is like borrowing cash from your in-laws, but each to their own.

The point that continually is being missed is a) The assumption that is wasn't asked for behind closed doors and rejected and b) The assumption that a deal hasn't already been made for assistance in another area instead which won't be as transparent to the supporters of the other 17 clubs to prevent "a mutiny" and "outrage".

First and foremost if this rebuild is going to work, it will be dependent on whether all of the right people are currently in place to see it through, not how many more early picks we aquire.

The formula is simple.

If the right people are in place ie coaches, recruiters, board, medical staff, fitness staff etc then another pick at #19 won't make any difference as we already have enough early picks on the list to add to the crop that we receive next year for them to work with.

On the flip side if the wrong people are in place - which seems to be the common theme from many that are screaming for a PP - then an extra pick will not make a scrap of difference. Would be akin to giving a gambling addict $1000 to go get rehab.


:clap:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 28221

https://twitter.com/CarltonFC/status/1008165590446403584


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8172
Location: Australia
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14238
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?

It is my understanding that a PP will only be considered if the club requests one.
The whole thing blew up when Gerard, Carlton hating, Whately announced on his radio show that it would be outrage if we got one.
The usual media jumped on board and it seems the club released that statement to make it go away.
The next week the media had turned their attention to GC so we should have just ridden it out and not said anything.
Do you think Melbourne supporters think they have been humiliated?
They requested a PP and were rejected only to be given pick 3 for Frawley instead.
The AFL approached Roos and convinced him to coach them, the AFL paid his lucrative contract and also put a CEO in there to sort the club out.
I don't think they feel humiliated.
They are now enjoying the improvement of their team, who have yet to prove anything yet by the way.
They are on the right path due to AFL assistance.
Can you imagine our humiliation if we do not ask for a PP and GC and Brisbane do and get granted one.
Imagine finishing on the bottom and teams above us get assistance simply because we hastily made a decision mid season not to ask for help?
Imagine if we finish last and only get pick 3.
I think the club would be failing its supporters if it doesn't take advantage of a rule that is there for clubs like us.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3450
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?


Let's go back to basics here
Fact 1. NOBODY can predict the future
Fact 2. The best ESTIMATE of the future comes from mathematical modelling to look at present and past data. Again, this is just an extrapolated estimate
Question. Based on what we have seen since 2007 (Kruezer Cup), what evidence do you have to extrapolate the fact that one PP will make any shred of difference in the future?

Distraction. Move on. We've got bigger issues to worry about

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8172
Location: Australia
kezza wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?

It is my understanding that a PP will only be considered if the club requests one.
The whole thing blew up when Gerard, Carlton hating, Whately announced on his radio show that it would be outrage if we got one.
The usual media jumped on board and it seems the club released that statement to make it go away.
The next week the media had turned their attention to GC so we should have just ridden it out and not said anything.
Do you think Melbourne supporters think they have been humiliated?
They requested a PP and were rejected only to be given pick 3 for Frawley instead.
The AFL approached Roos and convinced him to coach them, the AFL paid his lucrative contract and also put a CEO in there to sort the club out.
I don't think they feel humiliated.
They are now enjoying the improvement of their team, who have yet to prove anything yet by the way.
They are on the right path due to AFL assistance.
Can you imagine our humiliation if we do not ask for a PP and GC and Brisbane do and get granted one.
Imagine finishing on the bottom and teams above us get assistance simply because we hastily made a decision mid season not to ask for help?
Imagine if we finish last and only get pick 3.
I think the club would be failing its supporters if it doesn't take advantage of a rule that is there for clubs like us.


Umm, so you agree with me?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8172
Location: Australia
99prelim wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?


Let's go back to basics here
Fact 1. NOBODY can predict the future
Fact 2. The best ESTIMATE of the future comes from mathematical modelling to look at present and past data. Again, this is just an extrapolated estimate
Question. Based on what we have seen since 2007 (Kruezer Cup), what evidence do you have to extrapolate the fact that one PP will make any shred of difference in the future?

Distraction. Move on. We've got bigger issues to worry about


I agree, why did we make such a big deal of it? Why not just take the free handout on the chance we’ll snag a good player and move on?

I’ll also say again, if draft picks aren’t the solution to a rebuild why have we made such a big deal that we have to rebuild via the draft?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 5819
Anyhow,Matt Scarlett has an incredible eye for young talent.A bloke who has a discerning eye for who can actually take there junior talent to senior level.I would be poaching this guy from the Cats myself.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 4685
99prelim wrote:
Question. Based on what we have seen since 2007 (Kruezer Cup), what evidence do you have to extrapolate the fact that one PP will make any shred of difference in the future?

Distraction. Move on. We've got bigger issues to worry about



when hawthorn drafted roughhead and franklin. that seemed to make a big difference to them.

when we lost our draft picks from the salary cap rort. how many years did that set us back? tht first year we were lined up to grab goddard. i wonder in the west coast prelim final, if a healthy goddard would have been the difference between winning that game or not?

not taking a high PP that we could be entitled to, in our position right now could be a death blow to the club. or it could be nothing.

who wants to gamble on that?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:29 am
Posts: 13627
kezza wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?

It is my understanding that a PP will only be considered if the club requests one.
The whole thing blew up when Gerard, Carlton hating, Whately announced on his radio show that it would be outrage if we got one.
The usual media jumped on board and it seems the club released that statement to make it go away.
The next week the media had turned their attention to GC so we should have just ridden it out and not said anything.
Do you think Melbourne supporters think they have been humiliated?
They requested a PP and were rejected only to be given pick 3 for Frawley instead.
The AFL approached Roos and convinced him to coach them, the AFL paid his lucrative contract and also put a CEO in there to sort the club out.
I don't think they feel humiliated.
They are now enjoying the improvement of their team, who have yet to prove anything yet by the way.
They are on the right path due to AFL assistance.
Can you imagine our humiliation if we do not ask for a PP and GC and Brisbane do and get granted one.
Imagine finishing on the bottom and teams above us get assistance simply because we hastily made a decision mid season not to ask for help?
Imagine if we finish last and only get pick 3.
I think the club would be failing its supporters if it doesn't take advantage of a rule that is there for clubs like us.


My thoughts exactly. Stupid decision yet again by those at the club.

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So hard to earn, so easily burned
In the fullness of time
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14238
sinbagger wrote:
kezza wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Rexy wrote:
If a PP is imposed on us I guess there's not much we can do other than to use it, however humiliating that is. Getting on our knees begging daddy for another handout is a very different action which I'm totally against.

I agree... if we're bad enough the AFL will award us a pp and we will accept it... the club doesn't need to publicly ask for one when it can and will be mentioned behind closed doors.

Unless it's a beginning of first round pick I couldn't care less if we get one or not... I definitely don't want to beg for a speculative second rounder.


All you guys banging on about how horrifying and humiliating it is to request a priority pick, can you share all the examples of those clubs that have been humiliated and destroyed by requesting a priority pick?

Can you also give an example of the AFL gifting a priority pick that wasn’t asked for? Or when it was already rejected in advance by the club?

It is my understanding that a PP will only be considered if the club requests one.
The whole thing blew up when Gerard, Carlton hating, Whately announced on his radio show that it would be outrage if we got one.
The usual media jumped on board and it seems the club released that statement to make it go away.
The next week the media had turned their attention to GC so we should have just ridden it out and not said anything.
Do you think Melbourne supporters think they have been humiliated?
They requested a PP and were rejected only to be given pick 3 for Frawley instead.
The AFL approached Roos and convinced him to coach them, the AFL paid his lucrative contract and also put a CEO in there to sort the club out.
I don't think they feel humiliated.
They are now enjoying the improvement of their team, who have yet to prove anything yet by the way.
They are on the right path due to AFL assistance.
Can you imagine our humiliation if we do not ask for a PP and GC and Brisbane do and get granted one.
Imagine finishing on the bottom and teams above us get assistance simply because we hastily made a decision mid season not to ask for help?
Imagine if we finish last and only get pick 3.
I think the club would be failing its supporters if it doesn't take advantage of a rule that is there for clubs like us.


Umm, so you agree with me?

You, yes. Not the others who said it is humiliating.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:17 am
Posts: 33829
List of clubs who have won a premiership after receiving a priority pick:

Collingwood
Hawthorn
West Coast
Western Bulldogs
Richmond


List of clubs who appeared in a Grand Final after receiving a priority pick:

Melbourne
St Kilda
Fremantle

List of clubs who have not appeared in a Grand Final after receiving a priority pick:

Carlton
Brisbane


I'm not arguing that priority picks lead to success, but it is clear that receiving a priority pick isn't the death-knell that some seem to believe.

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