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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
todd, do you think perhaps this might have something to do with our quickest and most skillful half backs (Docherty, Williamson and Byrne) being injured all year?

It certainly does and that is why I cut some slack about kicking ability. But the point is both the players out there kicking it (Byrne, Ed Curnow, Lang, Thomas, Simpson, Murphy, gulp Kerridge) or the players up the field (Pickett, Wright, Curnow, McKay) don't appear to be well drilled enough to create space or coordinated enough to get to the right spots with numbers if we have to go to a contest. So we chip across with four 20m kicks from one half back to the other then kick it to a contest on the wing where we are outnumbered whilst they still have a player free in the middle.


And I guess you don't factor in the opposition blocking space as we go forward or the opposition outplaying our players man on man.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:27 pm 
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John Nicholls
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We simply can't play the kind of style we want to without the personnel to break lines and hit targets by foot off half back. So the game plan was changed accordingly to maintain possession. We actually did this pretty well for the first half against Freo and the commentators noticed it too.

In fact, it's a necessary learning for our players to be able to switch to this kind of slow, keepings-off game plan if we've lost momentum and want to hold the game up (or protect a lead).

It won't be how we play when we have our HB play-makers back.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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robertbb wrote:
We simply can't play the kind of style we want to without the personnel to break lines and hit targets by foot off half back. So the game plan was changed accordingly to maintain possession. We actually did this pretty well for the first half against Freo and the commentators noticed it too.

In fact, it's a necessary learning for our players to be able to switch to this kind of slow, keepings-off game plan if we've lost momentum and want to hold the game up (or protect a lead).

It won't be how we play when we have our HB play-makers back.


:thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Sidefx wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
todd, do you think perhaps this might have something to do with our quickest and most skillful half backs (Docherty, Williamson and Byrne) being injured all year?

It certainly does and that is why I cut some slack about kicking ability. But the point is both the players out there kicking it (Byrne, Ed Curnow, Lang, Thomas, Simpson, Murphy, gulp Kerridge) or the players up the field (Pickett, Wright, Curnow, McKay) don't appear to be well drilled enough to create space or coordinated enough to get to the right spots with numbers if we have to go to a contest. So we chip across with four 20m kicks from one half back to the other then kick it to a contest on the wing where we are outnumbered whilst they still have a player free in the middle.


And I guess you don't factor in the opposition blocking space as we go forward or the opposition outplaying our players man on man.


From half back to the wings you have more space to work with across the ground than anywhere else. How we are unable to find space or work as a team to switch and create space quickly needs to be addressed by the Coaches. If they are blocking space then switch but do it quickly not four twenty metre kicks. If they are man on man spread and go to Charlie or McKay.

And like I said, this is when we have the ball. I get we can outmuscled at stoppages. I get our defence can be shredded if the ball comes in quickly. Our inability to distribute quickly of half back needs addressing from the coaching staff.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:01 pm 
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John Nicholls
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If you switch too quickly and cough it up (which we often do), you get cut up because you're out of position (which we often are).

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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robertbb wrote:
a necessary learning


I know everyone in the AFL industry now uses the word. But pretty sure 'learning' is not a noun, or never has been.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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Stefchook wrote:
robertbb wrote:
a necessary learning


I know everyone in the AFL industry now uses the word. But pretty sure 'learning' is not a noun, or never has been.
Yep, speaking like "learning" is a noun, is a real fail.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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toddkurnski wrote:
My issue with the coaching is the lack of strategy off half back.

You can get done at stoppages simply because you don't have the talent there.
You can leak goals when the ball is coming in quickly with little pressure because of the above.

But when we have the ball we so often lack the ability to switch quickly to create space, or find a contest and place the ball to advantage, or have our half forwards make space/block/decoy for Curnow or McKay. I think that is something all the players should be well drilled in even if they are young or coming in from the seconds.

We cough it up on the wing at a contest we are outnumbered at and then the opposition switch into the corridor where they have a free man. Yes there may be a poorly executed kick that caused the turnover but how do we end up both outnumbered at the contest and they still have a free player in the corridor? Either the tactic is poor or players don't understand it. Fix one of them.


Hard to do things without a functioning midfield, sorry, make that midfield

Then factor in the quality of the players.....


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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toddkurnski wrote:
One thing Bolton did understand was the value of Gibbs. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong but I remember hearing he was against the first attempt to poach Gibbs because he knew what would happen to our midfield. Well, he was right.

I agree with the trade as a long term strategy but I guess did not see how bad the short term pain would be with Gibbs gone, then compounded further by losing Docherty.


You are right, Bolton was also against the eventual trade of Gibbs to Adelaide because of the reasons you mentioned... the list manager promised to bring in a quality, experienced mid via free agency to replace Gibbs.

The list manager failed to lure Smith, low balled Rockliff (whose preference was to come back to Victoria), then traded Gibbs anyway...

One of our worst seasons in history....


Last edited by ColourMan on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:33 pm 
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John Nicholls
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toddkurnski wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
todd, do you think perhaps this might have something to do with our quickest and most skillful half backs (Docherty, Williamson and Byrne) being injured all year?

It certainly does and that is why I cut some slack about kicking ability. But the point is both the players out there kicking it (Byrne, Ed Curnow, Lang, Thomas, Simpson, Murphy, gulp Kerridge) or the players up the field (Pickett, Wright, Curnow, McKay) don't appear to be well drilled enough to create space or coordinated enough to get to the right spots with numbers if we have to go to a contest. So we chip across with four 20m kicks from one half back to the other then kick it to a contest on the wing where we are outnumbered whilst they still have a player free in the middle.


And I guess you don't factor in the opposition blocking space as we go forward or the opposition outplaying our players man on man.


From half back to the wings you have more space to work with across the ground than anywhere else. How we are unable to find space or work as a team to switch and create space quickly needs to be addressed by the Coaches. If they are blocking space then switch but do it quickly not four twenty metre kicks. If they are man on man spread and go to Charlie or McKay.

And like I said, this is when we have the ball. I get we can outmuscled at stoppages. I get our defence can be shredded if the ball comes in quickly. Our inability to distribute quickly of half back needs addressing from the coaching staff.


The problem is exacerbated by dreadful foot skills that see the ball turned over so easily. Case in point last week with Kerridge on numerous occasions.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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moshe25 wrote:
Stefchook wrote:
robertbb wrote:
a necessary learning


I know everyone in the AFL industry now uses the word. But pretty sure 'learning' is not a noun, or never has been.
Yep, speaking like "learning" is a noun, is a real fail.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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toddkurnski wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
todd, do you think perhaps this might have something to do with our quickest and most skillful half backs (Docherty, Williamson and Byrne) being injured all year?

It certainly does and that is why I cut some slack about kicking ability. But the point is both the players out there kicking it (Byrne, Ed Curnow, Lang, Thomas, Simpson, Murphy, gulp Kerridge) or the players up the field (Pickett, Wright, Curnow, McKay) don't appear to be well drilled enough to create space or coordinated enough to get to the right spots with numbers if we have to go to a contest. So we chip across with four 20m kicks from one half back to the other then kick it to a contest on the wing where we are outnumbered whilst they still have a player free in the middle.


And I guess you don't factor in the opposition blocking space as we go forward or the opposition outplaying our players man on man.


From half back to the wings you have more space to work with across the ground than anywhere else. How we are unable to find space or work as a team to switch and create space quickly needs to be addressed by the Coaches. If they are blocking space then switch but do it quickly not four twenty metre kicks. If they are man on man spread and go to Charlie or McKay.

And like I said, this is when we have the ball. I get we can outmuscled at stoppages. I get our defence can be shredded if the ball comes in quickly. Our inability to distribute quickly of half back needs addressing from the coaching staff.


Ahhhhhhh, now I get it.

Yeah, it's definitely the coaching and not the fact that our half backs that can actually hit their targets are all injured. Gotcha! :screwy:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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When you look at the amount of games missed this season by our first choice defenders it’s pretty shocking. Particularly for the small / medium type. Out of a possible 20 games, our defenders have played:

Docherty - 0 games
Williamson - 0 games
Byrne - 5 games
Cuningham - 5 games
Marchbank - 10 games
Weitering - 12 games
Plowman - 13 games

Not only the fact that we’ve had most of our best defenders for most of the season, it’s impossible to get any synergy and understanding happening. I really wonder what the season would have looked like if they had all played 20 games.

(I acknowledge that Cuningham and Weitering missed some due to form, and Cuningham is not strictly a defender but if fit he would have been filling the role of Byrne / Docherty / Williamson more often this season)

Then you add injuries to other runners such as Murphy, Pickett, Lang, Fisher, Kennedy, we never really had a chance this year.

It was always going to be a tough year in the middle of a rebuild, playing so many kids and losing a player like Gibbs, you add injuries like we’ve had and you have to feel sorry for Bolts


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Robert Walls

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robertbb wrote:
If you switch too quickly and cough it up (which we often do), you get cut up because you're out of position (which we often are).


Not sure I follow you here. A quick switch and error is better to me than the chip chip possession.

All players should be learning the right movements including the forwards. Our players lack of movement to help each other up the field to create options or spread a defence is something that needs to improve. Regardless of who is in the team or the skill level. Do you believe the way players run to create targets and space is good enough or could be improved?

Like anything, repetition of good habits will improve results over extended periods. I am worried we are short changing ourselves and are not developing those habits regardless of who is in the team.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Sidefx wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
todd, do you think perhaps this might have something to do with our quickest and most skillful half backs (Docherty, Williamson and Byrne) being injured all year?

It certainly does and that is why I cut some slack about kicking ability. But the point is both the players out there kicking it (Byrne, Ed Curnow, Lang, Thomas, Simpson, Murphy, gulp Kerridge) or the players up the field (Pickett, Wright, Curnow, McKay) don't appear to be well drilled enough to create space or coordinated enough to get to the right spots with numbers if we have to go to a contest. So we chip across with four 20m kicks from one half back to the other then kick it to a contest on the wing where we are outnumbered whilst they still have a player free in the middle.


And I guess you don't factor in the opposition blocking space as we go forward or the opposition outplaying our players man on man.


From half back to the wings you have more space to work with across the ground than anywhere else. How we are unable to find space or work as a team to switch and create space quickly needs to be addressed by the Coaches. If they are blocking space then switch but do it quickly not four twenty metre kicks. If they are man on man spread and go to Charlie or McKay.

And like I said, this is when we have the ball. I get we can outmuscled at stoppages. I get our defence can be shredded if the ball comes in quickly. Our inability to distribute quickly of half back needs addressing from the coaching staff.


Ahhhhhhh, now I get it.

Yeah, it's definitely the coaching and not the fact that our half backs that can actually hit their targets are all injured. Gotcha! :screwy:


I already acknowledged the players missing and the skill of those in the team. However, do our players stand flat footed at half forward barely moving? Do we block for each other? Do we have players running on a 45 to spread a defence? I think all these could be improved as per the comment above about learning good habits. Long camera shots down the ground of a stagnant team mean there is room for the Coaches to improve their training and development of the players.

The down talk is unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:22 am 
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John Nicholls
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toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
If you switch too quickly and cough it up (which we often do), you get cut up because you're out of position (which we often are).


Not sure I follow you here. A quick switch and error is better to me than the chip chip possession.

All players should be learning the right movements including the forwards. Our players lack of movement to help each other up the field to create options or spread a defence is something that needs to improve. Regardless of who is in the team or the skill level. Do you believe the way players run to create targets and space is good enough or could be improved?

Like anything, repetition of good habits will improve results over extended periods. I am worried we are short changing ourselves and are not developing those habits regardless of who is in the team.


I stopped reading after your first sentence. Really? You want us to switch quick, lose the ball and have the opposition hammer repeat entries into our undermanned D50? :donk: :clap:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Robert Walls

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robertbb wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
If you switch too quickly and cough it up (which we often do), you get cut up because you're out of position (which we often are).


Not sure I follow you here. A quick switch and error is better to me than the chip chip possession.

All players should be learning the right movements including the forwards. Our players lack of movement to help each other up the field to create options or spread a defence is something that needs to improve. Regardless of who is in the team or the skill level. Do you believe the way players run to create targets and space is good enough or could be improved?

Like anything, repetition of good habits will improve results over extended periods. I am worried we are short changing ourselves and are not developing those habits regardless of who is in the team.


I stopped reading after your first sentence. Really? You want us to switch quick, lose the ball and have the opposition hammer repeat entries into our undermanned D50? :donk: :clap:


Quick switch lose possession
Chip chip lose possession

One is a good habit the other isn’t.
Practice one and not the other.
One will actually put pressure on the opposition if it works.
The other won’t.
Have a vision of how we should be playing 12 and 24 months from now. Chip chip and no player movement up the field isn’t the habit our players should be learning.

Cough up a few more goals today to learn better habits that will take us further tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
toddkurnski wrote:
robertbb wrote:
If you switch too quickly and cough it up (which we often do), you get cut up because you're out of position (which we often are).


Not sure I follow you here. A quick switch and error is better to me than the chip chip possession.

All players should be learning the right movements including the forwards. Our players lack of movement to help each other up the field to create options or spread a defence is something that needs to improve. Regardless of who is in the team or the skill level. Do you believe the way players run to create targets and space is good enough or could be improved?

Like anything, repetition of good habits will improve results over extended periods. I am worried we are short changing ourselves and are not developing those habits regardless of who is in the team.


I stopped reading after your first sentence. Really? You want us to switch quick, lose the ball and have the opposition hammer repeat entries into our undermanned D50? :donk: :clap:


Quick switch lose possession
Chip chip lose possession

One is a good habit the other isn’t.
Practice one and not the other.
One will actually put pressure on the opposition if it works.
The other won’t.
Have a vision of how we should be playing 12 and 24 months from now. Chip chip and no player movement up the field isn’t the habit our players should be learning.

Cough up a few more goals today to learn better habits that will take us further tomorrow.


Yes except we need to practice both, one to attack and one when opposition get a run on and we need to just deny them the ball.

At the moment we don't have the players on the field to play the big switch and with the constant changing of the team every week, it is very risky to ask players to practise this in real game situations.

The big switch requires the team to be all on the same page and understand each other as to when to go and when to kick down the line. Our players just don't have that chemistry at the moment and our players kicking from half back don't have the foot skills to execute even if the switch is on.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:28 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Precisely. Or was that concisely.

Maybe both.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Given this is a Bolton thread, go and have look at the way in which TDK was told of his inclusion on the Carlton website.

Bolton was outstanding.


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