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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:54 am 
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Ken Hunter
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murraycray wrote:
Re Bolton the teacher. If the majority of 40 kids in a class continually fail their exams, then there's 2 questions that would be asked.
Are maybe 30 of those kids all dunces ?
Or is the teacher the problem ?

If by the law of averages we accept that , that many kids aren't dunces, then surely the spotlight moves to the teacher's competence.
Does it not ?


Maybe the exam is too hard.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:17 am 
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Garry Crane

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Braithy wrote:
I wish (I know, I know) that we never had the injuries this season, so we could fairly and properly appraise bolton. Due the injuries Bolton will get another year as our coach. If it turns out bolton can't coach (there's enough eveidence to at least raise an alarm to this possibility), we as supporters and as a club spend another season lost like this one.


If the team plays the first half of next year as it has played this year Bolton will get sacked during the season. He and his game plan have been very poor this year, but he should be given a chance to correct for this season; but a short leash.

The club should hold firm for now in my opinion. Tim Clarke has gone, so hopefully that will initiate a change for the better inside the box.

Cain Liddle and Brad Lloyd are looking at our fitness & injury management. I expect they will find we are league worst. Improve that is of extreme importance.

I am so glad this year is over. Surely, surely this is rock bottom; no more green shoots talk, we got to get actual results; 6-8 wins required at a minimum in 2019.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:27 am 
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Harry Vallence

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murraycray wrote:
Re Bolton the teacher. If the majority of 40 kids in a class continually fail their exams, then there's 2 questions that would be asked.
Are maybe 30 of those kids all dunces ?
Or is the teacher the problem ?

If by the law of averages we accept that , that many kids aren't dunces, then surely the spotlight moves to the teacher's competence.
Does it not ?


Maybe you're having Grade 3 kids sit VCE exams?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:41 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Braithy wrote:
I wish (I know, I know) that we never had the injuries this season, so we could fairly and properly appraise bolton. Due the injuries Bolton will get another year as our coach. If it turns out bolton can't coach (there's enough eveidence to at least raise an alarm to this possibility), we as supporters and as a club spend another season lost like this one.
I haven't agreed with much of your thoughts this season, but I do agree with this one.

Bolton needs at least one season with a fully fit list for his abilities to be properly judged IMO. The issue of whether or not he can actually coach has this year been clouded by other circumstances out of his control. Injuries are one, lack of mid-age talent another.

If the other factors aren't present next year but we still finish near the bottom, we'll have our answer.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:52 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Donstuie wrote:
Braithy wrote:
I wish (I know, I know) that we never had the injuries this season, so we could fairly and properly appraise bolton. Due the injuries Bolton will get another year as our coach. If it turns out bolton can't coach (there's enough eveidence to at least raise an alarm to this possibility), we as supporters and as a club spend another season lost like this one.
I haven't agreed with much of your thoughts this season, but I do agree with this one.

Bolton needs at least one season with a fully fit list for his abilities to be properly judged IMO. The issue of whether or not he can actually coach has this year been clouded by other circumstances out of his control. Injuries are one, lack of mid-age talent another.

If the other factors aren't present next year but we still finish near the bottom, we'll have our answer.


The chance of having a fully fit list is virtually zero. The fact that Bolton so proudly states that we've turned over 42 players in 3 years sums up why he's no good.

We're 5-10 years behind the movement of clubs like Essendon* and North - which is terrifying!! Not only do you not need to 'bottom out' anymore, it's now a completely dumb and outdated strategy.

Essendon* will get another couple of good kids plus a free agent or two and have the base to grow for a flag.... while we're still trying to determine whether Bolton can actually coach :banghead: .

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:08 am 
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Bruce Doull
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How long did it take for Richmond, Hawthorn and Collingwood to figure out whether their coaches could actually coach?

Nonetheless, I've been waiting all year for a suitable answer to this, and I'm still yet to get one.

What. Is. The. Alternative?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:21 am 
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Donstuie wrote:
I've been waiting all year for a suitable answer to this, and it still rings true.

What. Is. The. Alternative?


You start looking and the alternative will present itself. Extending contracts and blindly sticking with the wrong bloke is a bad strategy.

I only saw a small amount of last nights game - thank @#$%&! - but the group looked absolutely lost - AGAIN!!!!! STILL!!!!

No spine whatsoever. No mental toughness at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:24 am 
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Bruce Doull
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The Duke wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
I've been waiting all year for a suitable answer to this, and it still rings true.

What. Is. The. Alternative?


You start looking and the alternative will present itself.

I'd prefer to hear your version

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:33 am 
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Last night meant @#$%&! all in the grand scheme of things but winning the inside 50's and losing by over 100 is still pretty damning and what is with setting up with only 2 forwards v 6 defenders at the centre bounce?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:37 am 
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Winning the i50's is nothing to crow about if you've got all your players in defence pinging the ball in but watching it pinging back out because there's no-one there.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:41 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Which is exactly the problem i think everyone is alluding to.

Stupid strategy.

....we also won the centre clearances

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:51 am 
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Geoff Southby
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jim wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
When I note that the only teams since Fitzroy to win just two games in a season were Fremantle in 2001 and Melbourne in 2013 I feel nothing but anger. The brand of the Carlton football club is being shovelled thru s**t

Carlton is on track to its worst season since 1901. Clearly the coach’s game plan should shoulder some of this blame. Why are there so many people out of their depth at Carlton?


Mate, if you haven't got it by now, you'll never get it.

Time to move along!

It's the last game of the year, just enjoy one last look at the kids that are developing before pre-season.
It's you that hasn't got it. Even this side, as there is still plenty of ability out there, is better than 2 wins, 3 x 100 pts the things, other humiliating thrashings. We have no idea how to actually move the ball in the modern game, we are so poorly drilled it's ridiculous, so bad as such that a side outscored us 7 goals to 1 in a last qtr a few weeks back with 16-17 men. And another 100pt defeat. This is 3 years to a rebuild and we still have no onflield structure we have locked into. Then how often have complained about a lack of effort. Thats a lack of respect for the coach.

So when all this started it was supposedto be a 66 game rebuild. How's that going. 2 wins! Love the result of that 66 game rebuild?

So dont b4 telling us to run along. Maybe you should be the one to do that as you embrace failure.


With out knowing what you do it's clear you don't do what I do. I go into businesses that are not performing and I analyse them from ground up, then I implement processes across all facets of the business. I then put in strategies and targets to monitor the development of the changes and here's the clutch, I fully understand that final performance does not always reflect growth in these processes, especially where anomalies are involved during the change period.

So to think that I embrace failure or fail to understand is laughable. It's clear that everything you write only reflects on the obvious statistics and you refuse to look to deeper to have a better understanding why. i.e. inside 50 count from last night. As you so boldly put it we won that stat 61-54, but you failed to mention that they had a 65% accuracy compared to our 30% odd as it was stated. Our injuries and lack of leadership on the field you blame the coaches for game plan, it's pretty hard to run a business and implement new processes when your key staff are always changing and you're constantly trying to train kids to fill those roles, especially in a business when the work load is tailored to men, not kids. And finally, I have played in a team that has had only 2 wins for the season and believe me the last game of the year is more of a relief as your spirit and body have copped a flogging all year you actually begin to doubt yours and your teams ability. And no coach on the planet can change that, it's an individual mental thing.

As I said before if you haven't got it by now you never will. Let's just all enjoy the off season and put this woeful year behind us and look forward to new players a refreshed mindset and most importantly NO INJURIES.


Last edited by Sidefx on Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:51 am 
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Rod Ashman

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grrofunger wrote:
Last night meant @#$%&! all in the grand scheme of things but winning the inside 50's and losing by over 100 is still pretty damning and what is with setting up with only 2 forwards v 6 defenders at the centre bounce?


watching the game from behind the goals last night this was the weirdest set up i have ever seen...
i could clearly see where the adelaide spares were but it was almost like our spares were hiding...i couldnt see any spares in our back 50..more like out wide on the wings..
i'd love to see a stat for centre clearances we won that resulted in forward 50 entries but were then rebounded up the other end for an Adelaide score..


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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And this is the thing I'd like to know better first before advocating for a sakc-fest.

Who is responsible for these setups/issues at our club?

Is it Bolton himself, our line coaches, or our 'head of strategy' (Barker)?

You'd think Clarke's swift booting last night would be a pretty big clue.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Donstuie wrote:
Braithy wrote:
I wish (I know, I know) that we never had the injuries this season, so we could fairly and properly appraise bolton. Due the injuries Bolton will get another year as our coach. If it turns out bolton can't coach (there's enough eveidence to at least raise an alarm to this possibility), we as supporters and as a club spend another season lost like this one.
I haven't agreed with much of your thoughts this season, but I do agree with this one.

Bolton needs at least one season with a fully fit list for his abilities to be properly judged IMO. The issue of whether or not he can actually coach has this year been clouded by other circumstances out of his control. Injuries are one, lack of mid-age talent another.

If the other factors aren't present next year but we still finish near the bottom, we'll have our answer.


We may well have the answer by round 2 (assuming the fixture is similar to this year)

We lose to GC at home and Bolton can start clearing his office. The rot started then. How FKN dare Murphy say that the players didn't take that game seriously...what, just because they kicked the first 5 goals against Rich the week before?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Sidefx wrote:
jim wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
When I note that the only teams since Fitzroy to win just two games in a season were Fremantle in 2001 and Melbourne in 2013 I feel nothing but anger. The brand of the Carlton football club is being shovelled thru s**t

Carlton is on track to its worst season since 1901. Clearly the coach’s game plan should shoulder some of this blame. Why are there so many people out of their depth at Carlton?


Mate, if you haven't got it by now, you'll never get it.

Time to move along!

It's the last game of the year, just enjoy one last look at the kids that are developing before pre-season.
It's you that hasn't got it. Even this side, as there is still plenty of ability out there, is better than 2 wins, 3 x 100 pts the things, other humiliating thrashings. We have no idea how to actually move the ball in the modern game, we are so poorly drilled it's ridiculous, so bad as such that a side outscored us 7 goals to 1 in a last qtr a few weeks back with 16-17 men. And another 100pt defeat. This is 3 years to a rebuild and we still have no onflield structure we have locked into. Then how often have complained about a lack of effort. Thats a lack of respect for the coach.

So when all this started it was supposedto be a 66 game rebuild. How's that going. 2 wins! Love the result of that 66 game rebuild?

So dont b4 telling us to run along. Maybe you should be the one to do that as you embrace failure.


With out knowing what you do it's clear you don't do what I do. I go into businesses that are not performing and I analyse them from ground up, then I implement processes across all facets of the business. I then put in strategies and targets to monitor the development of the changes and here's the clutch, I fully understand that final performance does not always reflect growth in these processes, especially where anomalies are involved during the change period.

So to think that I embrace failure or fail to understand is laughable. It's clear that everything you write only reflects on the obvious statistics and you refuse to look to deeper to have a better understanding why. i.e. inside 50 count from last night. As you so boldly put it we won that stat 61-54, but you failed to mention that they had a 65% accuracy compared to our 30% odd as it was stated. Our injuries and lack of leadership on the field you blame the coaches for game plan, it's pretty hard to run a business and implement new processes when your key staff are always changing and you're constantly trying to train kids to fill those roles, especially in a business when the work load is tailored to men, not kids. And finally, I have played in a team that has had only 2 wins for the season and believe me the last game of the year is more of a relief as your spirit and body have copped a flogging all year you actually begin to doubt yours and your teams ability. And no coach on the planet can change that, it's an individual mental thing.

As I said before if you haven't got it by now you never will. Let's just all enjoy the off season and put this woeful year behind us and look forward to new players a refreshed mindset and most importantly NO INJURIES.
Ahh one of them.
That explains a lot

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Robert Walls

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The Duke wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Braithy wrote:
I wish (I know, I know) that we never had the injuries this season, so we could fairly and properly appraise bolton. Due the injuries Bolton will get another year as our coach. If it turns out bolton can't coach (there's enough eveidence to at least raise an alarm to this possibility), we as supporters and as a club spend another season lost like this one.
I haven't agreed with much of your thoughts this season, but I do agree with this one.

Bolton needs at least one season with a fully fit list for his abilities to be properly judged IMO. The issue of whether or not he can actually coach has this year been clouded by other circumstances out of his control. Injuries are one, lack of mid-age talent another.

If the other factors aren't present next year but we still finish near the bottom, we'll have our answer.


The chance of having a fully fit list is virtually zero. The fact that Bolton so proudly states that we've turned over 42 players in 3 years sums up why our recruiting between 2008 and 2014 have denied us decent players in the demographic he speaks about

We're 5-10 (or insert any other natural number to suit your argument) years behind the movement of clubs like Essendon** and North - who last time I looked at the ladder didn't make the eight. Not only do you not need to 'bottom out' anymore, it's now a completely dumb and outdated strategy, especially for those clubs who didn't have to pare the list back to bare bones because of the aforementioned recruiting

Essendon** will get another couple of good kids plus a free agent or two and have the base to grow for a flag.... while we're still trying to determine whether Bolton can actually coach :banghead: .


EFA

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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murraycray wrote:
Re Bolton the teacher. If the majority of 40 kids in a class continually fail their exams, then there's 2 questions that would be asked.
Are maybe 30 of those kids all dunces ?
Or is the teacher the problem ?

If by the law of averages we accept that , that many kids aren't dunces, then surely the spotlight moves to the teacher's competence.
Does it not ?


Great analogy, but it lacks a little detail.

Firstly you have to look at the class as a whole. The kids in the class actually have to attend to be able to learn or even take the exams. And when they come back they have to play catch up as well as moving forward in the curriculum.
Secondly these kids have been selected to attend classes because of their talent in certain subjects, the problem lies when they are asked to do other subjects outside this for the benefit of the whole class.

I think it will be fair to judge the teacher after a year when the absentees are a lot less.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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We should rename this forum TalkingAnalogies.

We're on fire in this area.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Donstuie wrote:
How long did it take for Richmond, Hawthorn and Collingwood to figure out whether their coaches could actually coach?

Nonetheless, I've been waiting all year for a suitable answer to this, and I'm still yet to get one.

What. Is. The. Alternative?


Don't hold your breath

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