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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:29 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I don't get how come this is so hard to understand.
When you start training in the pre-season you come up with a coaching plan for the year that will help address the issues from the season before to make you more competitive (in our case, lack of scoring). And when you make these plans, you do so around the players you have on the list and to their individual strengths. You then train the hell out of this plan to make it become natural to the players. In a "normal" season you would allow for a few injuries and replacement of those players and have contingencies in place for that.
The "Facts" that most people understand and some can't are:
1. The age and experience of your list and the size of the bodies.
2. How many injuries the team has sustained and can sustain.
3. The turn over of players in the off season that are learning the new game plan.

All of these contribute to the results during the year and I have asked this many a times on this thread but NONE of the Bolton detractors are yet to answer. Explain the coaching fails of these teams that had unusually high injuries to "key" players (unlike Collingwood), Hawthorn in 2017 and Adelaide in 2018. Please include extent of injuries and depth and age of list.

The only thing I will agree with this year is that the coaching team was unable to re-structure a plan to help make our VFL grade players competitive in the AFL (the kids get a pass, because they are just that......kids). To which most of these players have been delisted or retired from the club, which should speak volumes in itself.

And as for complicated game plan, seriously.....if the club had a basic game plan then I would be on the band wagon with you guys to sack the coach. This is AFL, not country football for @#$% sake.

The truth will be in the results next year if we have a near fully fit team, with a years more experience into the kids and allowing players the play their roles and to their individual strengths.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:44 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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SurreyBlue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
verbs wrote:
From listening to that podcast I get the feeling it will take Russell up to a year to make a significant impact. It really sounds like he likes to know the players inside out, which takes time.


Take note BB....here is your next excuse....


I don't understand the constant attack and belittling of our coach?

I bet he doesn't use that as an excuse, and its just an excuse for you to hae a dig at him.

Have some faith surrey.

This club and its supporters have been to hell and back.
Surely you can see positive changes on every level of the footy club over the last 3 years.
Give BB a chance to coach a team capable of delivering. There 23 kids under 23 on our list...that's not an excuse, its reality.


Bondi, wrong or not, Bolton has used the excuse of youth and injuries plenty of times during the year.
Please review his after match conferences, if you need too.

My issue is not either of injuries or youth but the players looked like headless chooks in 2018 and they had no idea what the game plan was or what was required. After 3 years in charge of the group alarm bells are ringing. I’ve lost faith - you bet, but I’m not alone!

The fact the review confirmed the game plan was too complicated confirms what I was watching unfold.


Firstly, I was referring to the comment that it takes time for Russell to get to know the players and I bet this will not be used as an excuse by Bolton. In other words, whilst you used that comment to have a dig at Bolton, I thought you were wrong to suggest that and seemd to be looking for amo to have a go at Bolton.

The fact the Game Plan may be too complex for the kids to put in action may be a fact. I'm aware of this as it has been suggested. Yet we do know that the experienced players like Simpson, Murphy, Docherty and Thomas understood the game plan, albeit complex. One of the reasons Thomas was an instant selection was his grasp of the game plan. It doesn't imply that the Game plan wouldn't work, it only suggests that the newcomers to the big boys league couldn't apply themselves to make it happen. That could have something to do with the fact the kids bodies under developed, and fatigue renders them ineffective.

If older players understand and can action the game plan, that alone suggests that the game plan may still be a good one, just a tad too early for the new kids. Given the plethora of new kids on our list, and age profile being unbalanced, we have no choice but to expedite the development, physically and their footy IQ. We don't have a choice but to go through the pains that come with kids.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:48 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Sidefx wrote:
I don't get how come this is so hard to understand.
When you start training in the pre-season you come up with a coaching plan for the year that will help address the issues from the season before to make you more competitive (in our case, lack of scoring). And when you make these plans, you do so around the players you have on the list and to their individual strengths. You then train the hell out of this plan to make it become natural to the players. In a "normal" season you would allow for a few injuries and replacement of those players and have contingencies in place for that.
The "Facts" that most people understand and some can't are:
1. The age and experience of your list and the size of the bodies.
2. How many injuries the team has sustained and can sustain.
3. The turn over of players in the off season that are learning the new game plan.

All of these contribute to the results during the year and I have asked this many a times on this thread but NONE of the Bolton detractors are yet to answer. Explain the coaching fails of these teams that had unusually high injuries to "key" players (unlike Collingwood), Hawthorn in 2017 and Adelaide in 2018. Please include extent of injuries and depth and age of list.

The only thing I will agree with this year is that the coaching team was unable to re-structure a plan to help make our VFL grade players competitive in the AFL (the kids get a pass, because they are just that......kids). To which most of these players have been delisted or retired from the club, which should speak volumes in itself.

And as for complicated game plan, seriously.....if the club had a basic game plan then I would be on the band wagon with you guys to sack the coach. This is AFL, not country football for @#$% sake.

The truth will be in the results next year if we have a near fully fit team, with a years more experience into the kids and allowing players the play their roles and to their individual strengths.


We need a game plan to differentiate ourselves and to give us an advantage, not copy all and sundry. The players believe in the game plan; that's what they have said.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 am 
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Ken Hunter
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bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
verbs wrote:
From listening to that podcast I get the feeling it will take Russell up to a year to make a significant impact. It really sounds like he likes to know the players inside out, which takes time.


Take note BB....here is your next excuse....


I don't understand the constant attack and belittling of our coach?

I bet he doesn't use that as an excuse, and its just an excuse for you to hae a dig at him.

Have some faith surrey.

This club and its supporters have been to hell and back.
Surely you can see positive changes on every level of the footy club over the last 3 years.
Give BB a chance to coach a team capable of delivering. There 23 kids under 23 on our list...that's not an excuse, its reality.


Bondi, wrong or not, Bolton has used the excuse of youth and injuries plenty of times during the year.
Please review his after match conferences, if you need too.

My issue is not either of injuries or youth but the players looked like headless chooks in 2018 and they had no idea what the game plan was or what was required. After 3 years in charge of the group alarm bells are ringing. I’ve lost faith - you bet, but I’m not alone!

The fact the review confirmed the game plan was too complicated confirms what I was watching unfold.


Firstly, I was referring to the comment that it takes time for Russell to get to know the players and I bet this will not be used as an excuse by Bolton. In other words, whilst you used that comment to have a dig at Bolton, I thought you were wrong to suggest that and seemd to be looking for amo to have a go at Bolton.

The fact the Game Plan may be too complex for the kids to put in action may be a fact. I'm aware of this as it has been suggested. Yet we do know that the experienced players like Simpson, Murphy, Docherty and Thomas understood the game plan, albeit complex. One of the reasons Thomas was an instant selection was his grasp of the game plan. It doesn't imply that the Game plan wouldn't work, it only suggests that the newcomers to the big boys league couldn't apply themselves to make it happen. That could have something to do with the fact the kids bodies under developed, and fatigue renders them ineffective.

If older players understand and can action the game plan, that alone suggests that the game plan may still be a good one, just a tad too early for the new kids. Given the plethora of new kids on our list, and age profile being unbalanced, we have no choice but to expedite the development, physically and their footy IQ. We don't have a choice but to go through the pains that come with kids.


1 question Bondi, do regard Jones as kid who wouldn’t be developed enough to understand the game plan?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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SurreyBlue wrote:



Quote:
1 question Bondi, do regard Jones as kid who wouldn’t be developed enough to understand the game plan?


I'm sure you're referring to 198cm 27 yo Liam Jones as a kid. I understand the reference to him, my comments and kid.

The other night my kids were watching their favourite show The Bounce. They were highlighting, I think, the coach killers of 2018, and first off the rank was Jones who was manning Lynch from GCS. What was highlighted was Jones playing a long way off his man and in 2 minds. He could've attacked the bloke ahead going for the loose ball or he could have manned up his opponent. He made himself look stupid. Their was no sign of game plan in his head, other than his own games plan between the ears.

i dont think Jones has high footy IQ and a bloke in 2 minds is an indecisive player or schizo imo. After the media went to town on his ridiculous decision (he admitted was what he was working on this tactic over the preseason) to play off his man and take the game on even more than last year because it seemed to work in 2-17. He shot himself in the foot playing Russian Roulette. In any other team he would have shot himself in the head and sent to the reserves for the rest of the year, as a liability.

With injuries at the time to Rowe Macreadie and Marchbank he was deemed required, and after his first 4 games were highlighted in the media as the worst defender in the comp, he curbed his style of play.

He ain the future, and there's no way his indecisiveness had anything to do with the Game Plan. That was knocked on the head by him!

Do you see his actions to play loose as Bolton's game plan? He wasn't zoning off. He was lost.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:



Quote:
1 question Bondi, do regard Jones as kid who wouldn’t be developed enough to understand the game plan?


I'm sure you're referring to 198cm 27 yo Liam Jones as a kid. I understand the reference to him, my comments and kid.

The other night my kids were watching their favourite show The Bounce. They were highlighting, I think, the coach killers of 2018, and first off the rank was Jones who was manning Lynch from GCS. What was highlighted was Jones playing a long way off his man and in 2 minds. He could've attacked the bloke ahead going for the loose ball or he could have manned up his opponent. He made himself look stupid. Their was no sign of game plan in his head, other than his own games plan between the ears.

i dont think Jones has high footy IQ and a bloke in 2 minds is an indecisive player or schizo imo. After the media went to town on his ridiculous decision (he admitted was what he was working on this tactic over the preseason) to play off his man and take the game on even more than last year because it seemed to work in 2-17. He shot himself in the foot playing Russian Roulette. In any other team he would have shot himself in the head and sent to the reserves for the rest of the year, as a liability.

With injuries at the time to Rowe Macreadie and Marchbank he was deemed required, and after his first 4 games were highlighted in the media as the worst defender in the comp, he curbed his style of play.

He ain the future, and there's no way his indecisiveness had anything to do with the Game Plan. That was knocked on the head by him!

Do you see his actions to play loose as Bolton's game plan? He wasn't zoning off. He was lost.



Jones doesn't make up his own game plan bondi.
It's Boltons zone defense and new attacking game plan. It makes all the defenders look silly and scoring against us simple.
Don't blame individual players when the the game plan doesn't work, look at the coach's plan and it's success under real game situation. All the practice and planning in the world cannot make a plan successful until in operation. This defensive zone is a detriment to our progress and Bolton should acknowledge it and move forward. I have said it before but maybe the new rules a bit of a refresh hopefully Bolton swallows his pride and adjusts accordingly.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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redback wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:



Quote:
1 question Bondi, do regard Jones as kid who wouldn’t be developed enough to understand the game plan?


I'm sure you're referring to 198cm 27 yo Liam Jones as a kid. I understand the reference to him, my comments and kid.

The other night my kids were watching their favourite show The Bounce. They were highlighting, I think, the coach killers of 2018, and first off the rank was Jones who was manning Lynch from GCS. What was highlighted was Jones playing a long way off his man and in 2 minds. He could've attacked the bloke ahead going for the loose ball or he could have manned up his opponent. He made himself look stupid. Their was no sign of game plan in his head, other than his own games plan between the ears.

i dont think Jones has high footy IQ and a bloke in 2 minds is an indecisive player or schizo imo. After the media went to town on his ridiculous decision (he admitted was what he was working on this tactic over the preseason) to play off his man and take the game on even more than last year because it seemed to work in 2-17. He shot himself in the foot playing Russian Roulette. In any other team he would have shot himself in the head and sent to the reserves for the rest of the year, as a liability.

With injuries at the time to Rowe Macreadie and Marchbank he was deemed required, and after his first 4 games were highlighted in the media as the worst defender in the comp, he curbed his style of play.

He ain the future, and there's no way his indecisiveness had anything to do with the Game Plan. That was knocked on the head by him!

Do you see his actions to play loose as Bolton's game plan? He wasn't zoning off. He was lost.



Jones doesn't make up his own game plan bondi.
It's Boltons zone defense and new attacking game plan. It makes all the defenders look silly and scoring against us simple.
Don't blame individual players when the the game plan doesn't work, look at the coach's plan and it's success under real game situation. All the practice and planning in the world cannot make a plan successful until in operation. This defensive zone is a detriment to our progress and Bolton should acknowledge it and move forward. I have said it before but maybe the new rules a bit of a refresh hopefully Bolton swallows his pride and adjusts accordingly.


Relax redback.

I'm not blaming the players. I responded to a question about one player. Have another look.

I am rehashing what Jones has admitted. I didn't make it up. It was in the media. He was ridiculed. He got ahead of himself with his attacking style last year and got a bit over confident and over enthused with his attacking style. It was his initiative. He said so and he fixed it up. So technically its public news he made up his own... game style, not game plan: they're your words.

As for Bolton's zone defence, that's only one aspect of Bolton's game plan, so I'm not sure how one aspect "zone defence" becomes Bolton's game plan when has been described as complex.

I acknowledge your statement as a theory because I don't think you know what the game plan is, like the rest of us. Looking from the outside its OK to have an opinion but turning that into fact is a bit far fetched. A bit like you suggesting I'm blaming the players when I'm responding to one posters question about ONE player. Capiche?

Don't shoot the messenger.

I saw things that didn't work this year. I saw changes made to last years game plan and again to round 2 and 3's game plan. I don't know exactly what it was, but I'm sure there will be more tweaks and developments to THE game plan. Lets hope everyone at Carlton on field and off field develops and improves next year. I have a feeling we will if we start with a clean bill of health.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Effing hell mate,three years in and we suddenly discover the game plan is no good..............thats what is starting to worry me.You either no what you are doing or you don't.If you need a myriad of assistant coaches to sort it out you aint the man for the job.Sorta like the tail wagging the dog.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:19 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Jones made a lot of mistakes last year. He had a few bags kicked on him as a result BUT
he was also one of the highest contested marks in the competition.
In terms of playing down back he is a novice still.
We saw what he achieved in 2017, second half based on pure instinct and athleticism. Coaches have worked him out now so he needs to adjust.
I think he has a future.
When the footy comes inside your area 70 times a game, your mates are all injured or too high, you have to worry aboiut the coach's 1:1.5 defensive zone and you want to play wide, you are going to make mistakes.
I would prefer to see how he goes in a stable back six, if we can achieve that.
I would also like to see if he can pinch hit in the ruck.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:36 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Jones made a lot of mistakes last year. He had a few bags kicked on him as a result BUT
he was also one of the highest contested marks in the competition.
In terms of playing down back he is a novice still.
We saw what he achieved in 2017, second half based on pure instinct and athleticism. Coaches have worked him out now so he needs to adjust.
I think he has a future.
When the footy comes inside your area 70 times a game, your mates are all injured or too high, you have to worry aboiut the coach's 1:1.5 defensive zone and you want to play wide, you are going to make mistakes.
I would prefer to see how he goes in a stable back six, if we can achieve that.
I would also like to see if he can pinch hit in the ruck.
Jones played about 8 to 10 games in 2017 where he was brilliant. Towards the back end of 2017 he was getting slaughtered.
This year he played 2 to 3 reasonable games the rest was rubbish.
But he wasn't alone there

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:36 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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SurreyBlue wrote:
The fact the review confirmed the game plan was too complicated confirms what I was watching unfold.


I must have missed that confirmation. Where can I read this report?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:29 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Blue Vain wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
The fact the review confirmed the game plan was too complicated confirms what I was watching unfold.


I must have missed that confirmation. Where can I read this report?


That was a Big footy rumour which was squashed as soon as the poster let fly with the statement...amazing how it becomes fact.
Says more about the spruikers than the target.

Shits me no end that some Carlton fans don't apply "Innocent until proven guilty" to their own.
Just stick the boots in. Along with the media bias and bashing, its awful TBH. Disgraceful is the apt word.
I've shown great understanding of the levels of frustration, but I will let fly on them one day.

Such is the built up level of frustration over the years. I understand but I don't accept if.
The past is the past. Move on and get real and with the times, for they are a changing.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:34 am 
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Craig Bradley

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Yeah, I'm curious about whether this rumour has actually been confirmed as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:54 am 
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Harry Vallence

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The fact our game plan was too complicated and negative was blatantly obvious to anyone who understands football.
It doesn't need new assistant coaches to point it out (even though they apparently have) because it is demonstrably true.
If some people honestly couldn't see that than I don't know what to say?

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Last edited by smithy on Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:05 am 
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Harry Vallence

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And the issue isn't whether the validity of the rumor is confirmed or not, forget the rumor. The real question is do we have an over complicated game plan or not... don't allow this obfuscation, it kills common sense.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:20 am 
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Rod Ashman
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bondiblue wrote:
redback wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:



Quote:
1 question Bondi, do regard Jones as kid who wouldn’t be developed enough to understand the game plan?


I'm sure you're referring to 198cm 27 yo Liam Jones as a kid. I understand the reference to him, my comments and kid.

The other night my kids were watching their favourite show The Bounce. They were highlighting, I think, the coach killers of 2018, and first off the rank was Jones who was manning Lynch from GCS. What was highlighted was Jones playing a long way off his man and in 2 minds. He could've attacked the bloke ahead going for the loose ball or he could have manned up his opponent. He made himself look stupid. Their was no sign of game plan in his head, other than his own games plan between the ears.

i dont think Jones has high footy IQ and a bloke in 2 minds is an indecisive player or schizo imo. After the media went to town on his ridiculous decision (he admitted was what he was working on this tactic over the preseason) to play off his man and take the game on even more than last year because it seemed to work in 2-17. He shot himself in the foot playing Russian Roulette. In any other team he would have shot himself in the head and sent to the reserves for the rest of the year, as a liability.

With injuries at the time to Rowe Macreadie and Marchbank he was deemed required, and after his first 4 games were highlighted in the media as the worst defender in the comp, he curbed his style of play.

He ain the future, and there's no way his indecisiveness had anything to do with the Game Plan. That was knocked on the head by him!

Do you see his actions to play loose as Bolton's game plan? He wasn't zoning off. He was lost.



Jones doesn't make up his own game plan bondi.
It's Boltons zone defense and new attacking game plan. It makes all the defenders look silly and scoring against us simple.
Don't blame individual players when the the game plan doesn't work, look at the coach's plan and it's success under real game situation. All the practice and planning in the world cannot make a plan successful until in operation. This defensive zone is a detriment to our progress and Bolton should acknowledge it and move forward. I have said it before but maybe the new rules a bit of a refresh hopefully Bolton swallows his pride and adjusts accordingly.


Relax redback.

I'm not blaming the players. I responded to a question about one player. Have another look.

I am rehashing what Jones has admitted. I didn't make it up. It was in the media. He was ridiculed. He got ahead of himself with his attacking style last year and got a bit over confident and over enthused with his attacking style. It was his initiative. He said so and he fixed it up. So technically its public news he made up his own... game style, not game plan: they're your words.

As for Bolton's zone defence, that's only one aspect of Bolton's game plan, so I'm not sure how one aspect "zone defence" becomes Bolton's game plan when has been described as complex.

I acknowledge your statement as a theory because I don't think you know what the game plan is, like the rest of us. Looking from the outside its OK to have an opinion but turning that into fact is a bit far fetched. A bit like you suggesting I'm blaming the players when I'm responding to one posters question about ONE player. Capiche?

Don't shoot the messenger.

I saw things that didn't work this year. I saw changes made to last years game plan and again to round 2 and 3's game plan. I don't know exactly what it was, but I'm sure there will be more tweaks and developments to THE game plan. Lets hope everyone at Carlton on field and off field develops and improves next year. I have a feeling we will if we start with a clean bill of health.



I wasn't having a go bondi, but you can plainly see that the players are confused about their role.
They run to spots and clearly loose sight of their opponent, not just Jones. They were taught to come off their men so they have an advantage when ready for an attacking option and to take up space but with the forwards out of position and a turnovers occurring they were sitting ducks and our defensive zone that was suppose to turn into our strength was our biggest weakness.

Jones or any other player isn't going to come out and blame the game plan or coaching if they want to keep playing in the seniors so most of the time you need to take the players public commentary with a grain of salt.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:57 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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There's lots of things being thrown around as fact and confirmation in this thread which are neither.

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Last edited by Blue Vain on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:03 pm 
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John Nicholls
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I think a critical factor here is skill level. You can have all the plans and having players run to position. However, if the ball is delivered at their feet or more often out of their reach all plans will look ineffective. Improving skill level especially when under pressure and when fatigue sets in is vital. So many times this past season, players just did not hit targets by foot and hand consistently.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Taff wrote:
I think a critical factor here is skill level. You can have all the plans and having players run to position. However, if the ball is delivered at their feet or more often out of their reach all plans will look ineffective. Improving skill level especially when under pressure and when fatigue sets in is vital. So many times this past season, players just did not hit targets by foot and hand consistently.


When Roos took on the job as Head Coach of Melbourne, he stated the best plan in the world can't work if your players dont have the tools to carry them out.

Start with the fundamentals kicking and hand balling and work from there.

If players can't get to the level of fitness required to execute the game plan, replace them with the types that can.

I'm sure a lot of the 23 players under 23 will be cut in the next 3-4 years because of this.

As mentioned above Carlton had Murphy Docherty Thomas Rowe Lamb and one other who could execute the game plan. Interesting that all these players are seasoned with a few preseasons and a lot of footy under their belts.

I'm sure there were problems with the Game plan for this group of players at the stage they're at, along with parts of the game plan that are just too difficult to execute, ie don't work in practicality.

I'm expecting change, development and improvement on every level next year or they are on notice. All of them.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I think it was just a case of our 'depth' players not having the talent or execution in carrying out the gameplan.


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