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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2023 7:53 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5984
It should be non- negotiable
That’s old school tripe that’s outdated speak
If you look at the modern day football landscape 2 teams normally go out of the eight
Two go in
Given StKilda’s draw plus the fact they weren’t far off the eight last year their one improver
The other is Port who obviously have improved their fitness and list
Sydney look on the slide no thank to keeping Franklin on the list
They play better without him
We are in the mix with about 6 other teams for a final eighth spot

To say making the eight is non negotiable is such a shallow comment because your discounting the pros and cons of half a dozen teams not to mention how many more times those teams play North WC and Hawthorn particularly the first 2 who are absolutely shit
We have already played both of them


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2023 9:38 pm 
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Robert Walls

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keogh wrote:
It should be non- negotiable
That’s old school tripe that’s outdated speak
If you look at the modern day football landscape 2 teams normally go out of the eight
Two go in
Given StKilda’s draw plus the fact they weren’t far off the eight last year their one improver
The other is Port who obviously have improved their fitness and list
Sydney look on the slide no thank to keeping Franklin on the list
They play better without him
We are in the mix with about 6 other teams for a final eighth spot

To say making the eight is non negotiable is such a shallow comment because your discounting the pros and cons of half a dozen teams not to mention how many more times those teams play North WC and Hawthorn particularly the first 2 who are absolutely shit
We have already played both of them

I’ll take ‘shallow’ as a compliment Keogh and keep the discussion above the line.

Given the strategy employed by the club to stick with the list at hand and build on our game plan, yes it should be the absolute expectation to be playing finals. We chose to stick our course post 2022 and no doubt the clubs view was we were on track.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:13 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Thought I'd post this article from today's HeraldSun here. Some of you can't probably access the HeraldSun so here it it. The S##t is hitting the fan once again ,,,,,, and the fan has had enough. Make of it what you will ..... Happy reading

12 May 2023
Fed up: Carlton powerbrokers, life members unload on president Luke Sayers, board and club
As Carlton continually re-writes masterplans, the club is no closer to a 17th flag. Prominent Carlton powerbrokers are pointing the finger at the ‘pathetically’ run board. Go inside the unrest.
SAM LANDSBERGER AND MICHAEL WARNER

Billionaire Carlton powerbroker Bruce Mathieson has unloaded on Blues president Luke Sayers, chief executive Brian Cook and the club’s “weak” board.
Mathieson said coach Michael Voss was going to be the one who “copped it in the neck” because of the club’s systemic bad management as he criticised the decision to retain football boss Brad Lloyd in 2021.
“He (Voss) is going to be slaughtered because the Carlton board is so weak,” Mathieson said.
“I’m not trying to chop Vossy in half. I just think we are run pathetically. It’s a real shame.”

“Put it this way, I will never, ever go out of my way to help Carlton again while any of these people are still in power.”
Asked about whether the club might try to cut ties with the lucrative poker machine licences he has gifted the club, Mathieson said: “They possibly will try because they are complete and utter imbeciles.”
“Luke Sayers is the president – he’s the boss and should take full responsibility for all of it. He’s the bloke who is supposed to bring home the bacon,” Mathieson said.
“Even Cooky, I thought he might be OK. But when you sit down and look at it, he was controlled by Frank Costa under his regime at Geelong.
“You see, there’s a million No. 2s and No. 3s in this world – but there are very, very few No. 1s who can make a decision and carry it out and get it done.
“And Cooky was lucky – he had Frank Costa as his boss, who guided him on every decision he ever made. He’s made no decisions at Carlton.
“I woudn’t have left (football boss Brad) Lloyd there for a start.
“I mean look at the difference in Collingwood since they went out and got a coach (Craig McRae). There’s been an incredible change since the old Collingwood establishment was chopped up. And that’s what we’ve got to have.
“I just don’t think there is a future under this management.”

LADDER SINCE ROUND 10 LAST YEAR
1. Collingwood 18-2
2. Geelong 17-3
3. Sydney 13-7
4. Brisbane Lions 13-7
5. Melbourne 12-8
6. Port Adelaide 12-8
7. Western Bulldogs 12-8
8. Fremantle 11-1
9. St Kilda 10-10
10. Richmond 9-2-9
11. Adelaide 9-11
12. Essendon* 9-11
13. Gold Coast 9-11
14. CARLTON 8-1-11
15. GWS Giants 6-14
16. Hawthorn 5-15
17. North Melbourne 3-17
18. West Coast 2-18


Board agitator Vince Loccisano, who is a life member, former president of the Carltonians and advocate for Carlton Now, said the Blues’ coaching job was a “poisoned chalice”.
“If we go backwards and don’t make finals what does the Carlton board always do when we’re haemorrhaging? Do they say there should be an election of board positions, our plans have not been successful, the people we appointed have not turned out to be the right ones, we think we should resign?” Loccisano said.

“No. They sack people. There’s one scapegoat after another. They will stick the knife into Michael Voss just like they have every other predecessor because that’s the only thing they know how to do.
“This cycle has got to stop. The 28 years since Carlton won its last flag is starting to resemble what the dire teams of Fitzroy and even Richmond from 1980-2017.
“We’re starting to get close to that. We are in the longest premiership drought we have ever experienced.”
The embattled Blues have not played finals in a decade and have sacked coaches Wayne Brittain, Denis Pagan, Brett Ratten, Mick Malthouse, Brendon Bolton and David Teague this century.
On Saturday night Carlton faces Western Bulldogs before games against Collingwood, Sydney (SCG) and Melbourne in a hellish month that could define their season and the future of Voss.
Sayers has been a Blues director since 2012 and must depart next year after serving a maximum 12 years.
Mathieson’s nephew Craig Mathieson is on the board and a member of the club’s finance and audit subcommittee.
WHERE HAS IT GONE WRONG FOR THE BLUES?
Carlton great Percy Jones could barely believe his eyes when he sat down to watch last week’s match against Brisbane Lions.
“We had the ball plenty of times. But our kicking, Christ, it was atrocious,” the four-time premiership champion said.
“You look at some of those blokes and you think, Christ, how can they miss them?
“They obviously aren’t trying to miss them, are they? They’re trying to hit a player on the chest – if they’re aiming for an opposition player they are being successful.

CARLTON’S TURNOVER GAME

Points from turnover differential in 2023
+30pts (wins)
-39pts (losses)
Blues' turnover game in rounds 5-8
Points from turnovers 41.5 (14th)
Opposition points from turnovers 53.8 (12th)
Points from turnover differential -12.3 (14th)

“Maybe if they aimed for the opposition player then they’d hit Carlton.”
Champion Data’s kick rating has teenager Ollie Hollands, Zac Fisher, Patrick Cripps and Jack Silvagni as the worst offenders by foot this year.
But the Blues aren’t only missing targets on the grass.
STRATEGIC PLANS
Upstairs at Ikon Park a five-year strategic plan, The Carlton Way, was published in 2019 by then-chief executive Cain Liddle and then-president Mark LoGiudice targeting AFL and AFLW premierships by 2023.
But Liddle was sacked in 2021 and this year chief executive Brian Cook and current president Luke Sayers released a new five-year plan (2022-2027), targeting AFL and AFLW premierships by 2027.
In 2011 former president Stephen Kernahan and chief executive Greg Swann released the ‘Blue Print’ – a five-year plan aiming to deliver not one, but two AFL flags by 2015.
Kernahan and Swann left in 2014 and in the 2015 the Blues collected the wooden spoon, having gone through three coaches in the period where they were supposed to win two premierships.

Vince Loccisano, an advocate for Carlton Now and past president of powerful coterie group the Carltonians, slammed the rewrites.
“Carlton always comes up with these five-year plans. How many of them were seen through from go to whoa?” the life member said.
“How can they say that Voss needs to be held accountable for the team’s performance and yet they come up with a five-year program that neither Sayers, Cook or Voss himself will necessarily be there to see through?
“No doubt whoever takes over from them is gonna say, ‘Well, I’m the new president or I’m the new CEO or I’m the new senior coach. I want a new plan’.
“When Sayers and Cook came up with the latest one, I had to have a chuckle because I said, ‘Well, none of these guys are going to be there to be held accountable to it’.”
Cook’s plan focuses on becoming a values-based organisation. Loccisano said members had “more than had enough of all that” and called for transparency.
“Carlton comes up with all these fuzzy words like ‘Stability’ and ‘Relentless’,” he said.
“That to me is all fluff. Unless it comes with a strategic plan that’s laid out, that everyone can understand and everyone can follow, what is the point of all of those buzzwords?
“So it’s time to come clean. It’s time for the board from Sayers down to come clean, and if they’re not up to the task at the end of this year they should be saying, ‘You know what, our strategy failed and our appointments have failed’.”
When Sayers became president in 2021 he said Carlton expected to play finals last year.
“He has not gone back to those words. At the end of last year he was nowhere to be seen, nowhere to be heard,” Loccisano said.
“That to me is not leadership. I think a lot of Carlton people are entitled to feel very disappointed in that.
“If you're not prepared to follow it through when those things are not achieved well then they’re all full of piss and wind.”

THE LIST
Cook conceded the Blues had to focus on the draft in the next couple of years because the top-heavy salary cap was bursting.
Last year’s Herald Sun Rich List had Cripps, Jacob Weitering, Zac Williams, Harry McKay, Mitch McGovern, Adam Saad and Charlie Curnow in the top-100 paid players.
It was estimated those seven players banked more than $5 million – more than a third of the salary cap.
This year free agent Jack Silvagni and Tom De Koning are out of contract. Both could be lost to cashed-up rivals.
Billionaire Carlton powerbroker Bruce Mathieson highlighted two players who left last year.
“Look at (Liam) Stocker. He had about 12 or 14 marks (playing for St Kilda) over the weekend. He was killing them. But he’s under a good coach now,” Mathieson said.
“You look at bloody (Will) Setterfield at Essendon*, they’re just like different players.
“They had all the potential in the world but were just badly, badly, badly coached.

MISSING ROSS LYON
Stocker’s coach at the Saints is Ross Lyon. In 2021 Sayers said on radio he spoke to Lyon for 45 minutes when coach David Teague was sacked. It was more like four hours and Lyon was considered a shoe-in for the job.
But when Lyon was told he must submit to the process he walked — and was successfully headhunted by the Saints last year. Mathieson, but hinted at a process gone wrong.
“Ross (Lyon) wanted to come to Carlton and we had him,” he said.
“But because of one silly person on the board it didn’t happen. And if that person becomes president, well that will be the end of my association with Carlton, I can tell you that.
“That will be it. I can’t be bothered anymore.”
It ultimately became a choice between Adam Kingsley and Michael Voss, the man who was also interviewed in 2019 but missed out to caretaker David Teague.
THE VOSS APPOINTMENT
Loccisano questioned how board member David Campbell was not chosen on the subcommittee that appointed Voss.
Campbell is a partner at Egon Zehnder, a global firm specialising in chief executive searches, board advisory and leadership.
“David Campbell’s meant to be a director who specialises in employment and people and culture. He wasn't even on the committee to select (Voss),” Loccisano said.
“Do you think that the appointment of Michael Voss was made for all the right reasons at the time? Do you think that the recommendations of the committee appointed to come up with the best candidate were all independent of the board?
“Or did the board appoint people who they knew were going to give them what they wanted?”
Voss’ first 29 games has produced 15 wins and a draw. Teague won 13. Teague lost two games by five goals or more while Voss has lost five.


“I just don't know that anything has really changed even since the days when they decided to have the review on David Teague, which ended up costing him his job,” Loccisano said.
“You could even argue Voss has had a lot more than his disposal player-wise, like McKay and Curnow playing in the same team together.
“Most Carlton people would be thinking we’re treading water at the moment and unless we find a way to go up a few gears and to really start turning it on against quality opposition we’re looking substandard.”
THE COMMENTARY
As Carlton became this week’s hot topic Nathan Buckley effectively said Voss was easy to coach against.
“Carlton’s game is taken away from them too easily by the opposition and Carlton don’t spend enough time taking the opposition’s game away from them,” Buckley said on SEN.
Speaking on Fox Footy, Garry Lyon said Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay were playing in the wrong spots and called for Voss to “maximise his superstars” and “weaponise” Curnow.
“They’ve got Harry McKay playing the Jeremy Cameron role and their (super) athlete, their Jeremy Cameron clone in Charlie Curnow, playing the Tom Hawkins role,” Lyon said.
“(Curnow’s) got everything they’re screaming out for (kicking inside 50) and he’s deployed in the wrong role.”
Tim Watson called for the handball-happy Sam Walsh to go to halfback.
The Blues have averaged 69 points outside of wins against West Coast and North Melbourne and since round 10 last year have won less games than Gold Coast, Essendon* and Adelaide.

AFLW MESS
The Blues won just two AFLW games last season. Loccisano said the board should take responsibility.
“Here's the irony and hypocrisy for all members to see,” he said.
“The Carlton women's program, which has been in dire straits for three or four years now – we’ve seen top-class players leave the club, we’ve seen the team drop down the ladder, we’ve seen another review which has seen another coach (Daniel Harford) get sacked and another head of football sacrificed in Brett Munro.
“All these people have had to pay a price because they've been made accountable for the non-performance of that football program.
“Yet the person on the board, Patty Kinnersley, who was responsible for coming up with the program and implementing the program, how was she punished? She was promoted to the position of joint vice-president.”

WHO REPLACES SAYERS?
Sayers must depart in 2024 when he completes his maximum 12 years as a director.
In 2022 Loccisano successfully thwarted proposed changes to Carlton’s constitution that would’ve extended the minimum presidency from three to four years – granting Sayers an extra year – and allowed non-members to fill casual board vacancies.
Loccisano expected Sayers’ successor to come from the current board.
“It's a closed shop. It’s a boys’ club,” Loccisano said.
“The board never invites any other interest from outside of its own bubble of corporate heavyweights to take part in governing the club.
“In fact it discourages people from outside the connections and the networks within the current board members. The reality is that every person that’s ever nominated for a board position within the last 20 years has been bullied into not standing for the board, and they’ve succeeded in bullying those people to reverse their original decision to stand.
“Or if they haven‘t succeeded in getting those people to back off they have sought to discredit and diminish those people’s chances by imposing this independent nominations committee to basically say this person’s got a few skills but we can adequately cover the skills required by way of this board member that we’ve already nominated.
“They will just appoint Robert Priestley or someone like him to take over from Sayers because being head of JPMorgan means Priestley’s got the business credentials and networks to fit the bill for what they want.”

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:36 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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I say Mathieson can take his pokies and shove them UHA.
Just like him to mouth off because he was isolated from having a say at the club. Egotist!


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:41 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Navy One wrote:
Thought I'd post this article from today's HeraldSun here. Some of you can't probably access the HeraldSun so here it it. The S##t is hitting the fan once again ,,,,,, and the fan has had enough. Make of it what you will ..... Happy reading


95% correct. Bruce's comments are nothing short of what we'd expect.

Sounds like a copy+paste from one of my rants over the years! My advice to Vince would be 'don't let Carlton be the death of you'. It isn't going to change and they're not worth it. I suspect it's already sent him mad, and it sounds as though he's in the angry phase. The acceptance phase is ok and it's possible to get there. I was in my very early 20s the last time Carlton won a flag. The club will not win another flag in my lifetime and I plan on living a long life. And I'm ok with that. Some very, very fundamental changes would have to be made for that to change. Can't see it though. You'd have to scorch the earth and start again... :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:02 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Hard to argue with much of that

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Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:13 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
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grrofunger wrote:
Hard to argue with much of that

Yep.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:23 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Posts: 1263
With all due respect Bruce, @#$%&! off.

JFC we are in the 8.

In. The. Eight.

The fools associated with our club and relics of the past have fallen into the media's trap hook line and sinker.

Embarrassing stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:29 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Agree with most of that - and Lyon probably would have been able to get Brad Lloyd removed as well - but at the end of the day this club has been a coach killer since David Parkin retired:

- Brittain
- Pagan
- Ratten
- Malthouse
- Bolton
- Teague
- dare I say Voss

And reckon we’d have destroyed Lyon as well even if we appointed him instead of Voss.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Posts: 1263
Just read that again, honestly what a pathetic rant.

"Cook only successful because of Frank Costa"

"That silly person on the board"

"Bloody Setterfield"

No surprises from someone who's profited off of human misery.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:51 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
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Well Sayers does need to explain why we didn't make finals last year. He said we would. He's the leader. He needs to be accountable and explain. But No. He says SFA. Bruce is a loud mouth and we don't need that stuff before the biggest game of the year but he is right about Sayers.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:56 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 5984
Bruce is a relic who has made money from others misery
Vince makes some good points
As I said not a big wrap in Sayers


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 5:13 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:58 pm
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Paddycripps wrote:
He said we would.


“Our expectation, based on the list that we have, we are looking to make finals in 2022,” an unapologetic Sayers told reporters.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/ ... f60f4ba8ab

No, he didn't.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 6:51 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Sounding like the back page spread...we are worse than Fitzroy.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:21 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Our footy club has been unsuccessful for so long it has become a breeding ground for unrest .

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 8:22 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
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Mickstar wrote:
Our footy club has been unsuccessful for so long it has become a breeding ground for unrest .


So true, until we start to consistently win games, the Herald Sun will continually find a way to bring this club down.

Sad but I have more important things to worry about. Better to keep some perspective about articles like that.

Matheson will soon realise that this club will be forced to wean itself off pokies revenue and will no longer have any influence over us.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 9:42 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Mathieson isn’t a dumb person and dare I say, maybe knows a bit of what he’s talking about.
The issue is, he is talking this sh1t through the media jungle. We need to keep this in house and work together, not against each other. He should be talking directly to Sayers and the board and they should be listening and communicating.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:32 am 
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Robert Walls
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SurreyBlue wrote:
Mathieson isn’t a dumb person and dare I say, maybe knows a bit of what he’s talking about.
The issue is, he is talking this sh1t through the media jungle. We need to keep this in house and work together, not against each other. He should be talking directly to Sayers and the board and they should be listening and communicating.


This.

Keep it in house.

People fixate on our coaching decisions but I would argue our footy operations have been equally (if not more) of an issue than our coaching situation.

I


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:55 am 
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Bruce Doull
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I wish Cerra had told the media that they might as well just hand us the cup now

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:04 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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CK95 wrote:
I wish Cerra had told the media that they might as well just hand us the cup now

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:grin:

I agree


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