..plenty of us have strong opinions regarding our ruck situation, so I'm going to try and keep track of how it goes thru the season.. ..I will keep editing this first post so it's easy for us all to track the ruck battles round by round, we can discuss rucking in here and not hijack other threads with our argument which will be better suited here..




--Round 1 Warnock & Krooz vs Lobbe & Trengove
Warnock 31 HO @ 26%, 4 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 6 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Krooz 13 HO @ 38%, 14 disp, 3 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 0 tackle, 7 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist

Lobbe 28 HO @ 11%, 12 disp, 2 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 5 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Trengove 4 HO @ 75%, 15 dips, 3 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 7 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 2 Warnock & Rowe vs Hampson & Griffiths
Warnock 30 HO @ 33%, 14 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 4 tackle, 6 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Rowe 6 HO @ 33%, 8 disp, 3 mark, 0 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 2 tackle, 7 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist

Hampson 26 HO @ 42%, 14 disp, 2 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 0 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Griffiths 7 HO @ 14%, 11 dips, 7 mark, 4 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 5 tackle, 1 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 3 Warnock & Rowe vs Carlisle & Daniher
Warnock 41 HO @ 24%, 5 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 3 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Rowe 14 HO @ 7%, 15 disp, 5 mark, 0 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 2 tackle, 4 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist

Carlisle 18 HO @ 17%, 17 disp, 9 mark, 0 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 2 tackle, 0 one%s, 1 goal, 1 goal assist
Daniher 9 HO @ 0%, 14 disp, 5 mark, 1 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 2 tackle, 2 one%s, 1 goal, 1 goal assist


--Round 4 Warnock & Casboult vs Spencer & Pedersen
Warnock 35 HO @ 29%, 15 disp, 4 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 0 tackle, 7 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 4 HO @ 0%, 16 disp, 8 mark, 2 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 3 tackle, 2 one%s, 1 goal, 1 goal assist

Spencer 30 HO @ 17%, 10 disp, 5 mark, 2 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 5 tackle, 3 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist
Pedersen 3 HO @ 0%, 13 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 5 tackle, 4 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 5 Warnock & Casboult vs Minson
Warnock 38 HO @ 26%, 9 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 4 tackle, 4 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 4 HO @ 0%, 10 disp, 5 mark, 2 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 2 tackle, 1 one%, 0 goal, 0 goal assist

Minson 48 HO @ 23%, 14 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 1 one%, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 6 Warnock & Casboult vs Cox & NicNat
Warnock 22 HO @ 36%, 8 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 2 tackle, 1 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 5 HO @ 0%, 14 disp, 9 mark, 3 cont. mark, 2 mark i50, 0 tackle, 4 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist

Cox 29 HO @ 17%, 18 disp, 6 mark, 2 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
NicNat 24 HO @ 25%, 10 disp, 1 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 7 Warnock & Casboult vs Grundy & Witts
Warnock 24 HO @ ??%, 13 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 6 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 5 HO @ ??%, 14 disp, 8 mark, 3 cont. mark, 3 mark i50, 0 tackle, 2 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist

Grundy 16 HO @ ??%, 11 disp, 1 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 4 tackle, 1 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist
Witts 15 HO @ ??%, 9 disp, 2 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 4 tackle, 2 one%s, 2 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 8 Warnock & Casboult vs Longer & Stanley
Warnock 40 HO @ 25%, 13 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 0 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 5 HO @ 40%, 10 disp, 7 mark, 1 cont. mark, 2 mark i50, 3 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist

Longer 26 HO @ 35%, 14 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 6 tackle, 3 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Stanley 2 HO @ 0%, 6 disp, 2 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 0 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 9 Warnock & Casboult vs Jacobs
Warnock 29 HO @ 31%, 11 disp, 2 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 5 HO @ 40%, 10 disp, 4 mark, 0 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 4 tackle, 3 one%s, 1 goal, 1 goal assist

Jacobs 38 HO @ 29%, 23 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 2 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


--Round 10 Warnock & Casboult vs West
Warnock 57 HO @ 23%, 14 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 2 tackle, 4 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist
Casboult 12 HO @ 33%, 14 disp, 4 mark, 1 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 5 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist

West 9 HO @ 33%, 2 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist



Round 11 Warnock & Casboult vs McIntosh & Blicavs
Warnock 39 HO @ 21%, 6 disp, 2 mark, 1 cont. mark, 1 mark i50, 3 tackle, 2 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 5 HO @ 20%, 16 disp, 8 mark, 2 cont. mark, 3 mark i50, 3 tackle, 2 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist

McIntosh 29 HO @ 35%, 12 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 5 tackle, 1 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Blicavs 11 HO @ 27%, 12 dips, 5 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 5 tackle, 5 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist


Round 12 Warnock & Casboult vs Ceglar & Hale
Warnock 29 HO @ 7%, 4 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 1 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 6 HO @ 0%, 12 disp, 5 mark, 3 cont. mark, 3 mark i50, 1 tackle, 3 one%s, 4 goal, 0 goal assist

Ceglar 22 HO @ 36%, 16 disp, 4 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 2 tackle, 2 one%s, 2 goal, 0 goal assist
Hale 13 HO @ 15%, 5 disp, 1 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 3 one%s, 1 goal, 0 goal assist


Round 13 Warnock & Casboult vs Mumford & Patton
Warnock 30 HO @ 23%, 5 disp, 0 mark, 0 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 3 tackle, 4 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist
Casboult 9 HO @ 33%, 5 disp, 3 mark, 2 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 6 tackle, 2 one%s, 0 goal, 0 goal assist

Mumford 55 HO @ 29%, 18 disp, 5 mark, 1 cont. mark, 0 mark i50, 9 tackle, 0 one%s, 0 goal, 1 goal assist
Patton 2 HO @ 0%, 13 disp, 9 mark, 4 cont. mark, 2 mark i50, 1 tackle, 1 one%s, 2 goal, 2 goal assist

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..I added in their ruck opponents, will list them each game as well.. ..I think Warnock is good at nullifying his opponent, but without extra sharp midfield set ups and work he will be like Sandi in that most of the time all mids out there know to rove to Warnock so unless he improves his tap work our midfield's don't get a boost from him..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Something out of left field.

Put up both Kreuzer and Warnock for trade at the end of the year for early draft picks which everyone agrees we need.

Wood we use as an interim ruckman for the next 2 -4 years as we groom another young ruckman or wait to buy one to take over. He looked impressive in the pre-season.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

Make sure you include tackles, shepherds, acts of physical pressure, one-percenters. I doubt the list will be long for either Warnock or Kreuzer. Contested mark figures too would be handy.

Here is a list of premiership ruckmen regarding tackling:

Brad Ottens - 2011 grand final 5 tackles
Darren Jolly - 2010 grand final 4 tackles
Brad Ottens - 2007 grand final 3 tackles.
Max Bailey - 2013 grand final 3 tackles
David Hale - 2013 grand final 2 tackles.

These premiership players were willing to tackle and apply physical pressure. Kreuzer 0 tackles on the weekend.

Justin Madden - 1995 grand final 15 possessions, 1 goal, 4 marks.

If any current Carlton ruckman can dominate the hit-outs, get 15 possessions, at least 1 goal, at least 3 contested marks and say 2-3 tackles in a match - it will be a miracle...and they should be given a red carpet limousine ride to the ground every match, free dining at Quaff for a year and free champagne for a decade.

Hey BKB - is it possible to find out scores while each ruckman is on the job?
Notwithstanding the taps/to advantage, it seemed from the stands that we did better when Warnock was in the ruck than when Kreuzer was?

An interesting stat would be scores for/against while rucking. My impression is that Warnock would be a fair way in front

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Carlton - Nothing's changed
I still love you, oh, I still love you
Only slightly, only slightly less
Than I used to, my love

..added what I could that you asked for.. ..krooz was obviously underdone, but if you think he lacks physical presence you are flat out wrong.. ..last season he avg'd a bit over 4 tackles a game and a bit over 3 marks a game which puts him in top bracket of ruckman, no ruck avg'd more than the 3 contested mark a game you demand, in fact it was only Pyke that avg'd over 2 contested marks a game and even then it was 2.1.. ..krooz was equal highest with goal assists avg as well as top for one percenters and is top bracket for contested marking and marking i50..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..krooz doesn't want to leave and nobody wanted knockers when we tried..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..17th prem & godnavyblue..

..if there is a score breakdown per ruckman I don't know where to source it, other than my own two eyes.. ..but I say think it through,, coz we were heavily outscored after quarter time, especially so in the 2nd and 4th quarters.. ..knockers spent much more time in the ruck than krooz did, ergo we were scored against no matter who rucked.. ..and the 4th quarter smashing we copped would have been more with knockers in ruck than krooz.. ..everyone knows knockers will win the tap, everyone knows that his ruck craft is limited, so once our mids stopped working their mids just roved to knockers' predictable taps.. ..I think opposition mids can shark knockers more easily than krooz, much like mids used to do to Sandi..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

If he was "underdone" then they shouldn't have played him - instead put Casboult in - or taken him off for the last quarter. It was a poor team selection decision if he was underdone as much as he was in this match.

He got 56 marks in 2013 - Hale almost doubled it and got 98. (with about 5 extra games)

Hale can play forward and ruck. Kreuzer can only play the ruck.

Pyke ( a Canadian) kicked 28 goals and obtained 276 disposals.

Kreuzer kicked 10 goals and obtained 195 disposals.

Will Minson 860 hitouts - Kreuzer 428 hit outs.

If we are going to compare Kreuzer (and for that matter Warnock as well) to the good ruckmen they fall short. One or the other of them has to either be an exceptional ruck (ie Will Minson) or be able to kick goals (ie Hale, Pyke etc) to find a place in the team...ie have a second bow to his string.

Carlton can't have two specialist ruckmen in the team who can only ruck at an average (or sometimes slightly above average) standard...either be an exceptional ruck, or have a second function.

I don't care which ruckman steps up to be number 1- Kreuzer, Warnock, Wood or Casboult or whatever combination they go with, but time is running out in experimenting. Get it sorted. Kick goals, be effective, Malthouse shouldn't get out-foxed by teams that select one ruckman - eg Port - and then wonder why they have more run in the last quarter. Think about what are the minimum benchmarks required. For Kreuzer - I agree that he has to have a second string to his bow as his rucking isn't good enough when compared to Minson and the like.

..sure I agree he ought not to have been played, but mc obviously think even under done they must play krooz.. ..they have done this plenty of times, so much in fact that it seems to me that they have little faith in knockers, and or any other replacement..


..keep in mind that krooz played fwd/ruck to knockers in a fair few of his games, other rucks you mentioned played first ruck for majority of year.. ..he also got injured early in round three, and first game back from broken thumb was nowhere near ready, these affect his averages too..

..hale did well up fwd, with roughy and buddy alongside, how good was he at the roo's..??.. ..also he played 7 more games over the full season, yet overall avg's 4.1 marks a game to krooz 3.3, they avg the same contested marking and hale is .2 more in marks i50 playing in the most talented and well drilled forward line in the league.. ..hale and also bailey avg less hitouts..

..pyke kicked very well in front of goal, kicking 28.8 to krooz's 8.11, in 8 more matches.. ..krooz was unusually inaccurate, kicking most of those behinds in the matches directly after being rushed back from the broke thumb so perhaps it effected his balldrop?..

..pyke has surprised everyone, but again these two rucks are in the last two flag teams.. ..hard working, disciplined teams.. ..put krooz in these and he would be aa easily..

..minson had a good season granted but it's taken him a long time, he also would have had double the time in the ruck.. ..krooz is ahead of those rucks at same point in time and career, aside from pike who has grasped the ruck very well in short time..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..I agree with the chopping and changing of ruck set ups, it hurts us.. ..krooz has spent plenty of his development years with us being tried as a forward ruck, partly out of desperation.. ..instead of us getting a real kpf, we try and turn him into one even though he isn't and hasn't shown any knack for it.. ..majority of rucks are only so-so kpf's, and usually show some fwd craft late in their careers..

..btw, your 'fitzy' doesn't 'get' all the gnashing of teeth regarding krooz, he said last year (with madden also saying) that krooz is about to enter his prime in the coming years and that all they have seen of him up to this point makes them both think he will be a very good ruck over his career..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..added in the ruck battle for round two..

..not including clangers cos I feel that you will get a few with any ruck, something you live with due to position and role, all rucks have a few.. ..but damn, knockers' had a bad night in this regard, more so than normal for a ruck..

..hopefully he can mprove, and hopefully krooz injury setback isn't so severe cow knockers looks knackered by end of match and I doubt he will last half a season as lone ruck.?

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..yanno, I'm curious where all the ppl that have claimed knockers to be a dominant and best skilled tap ruckman have gone..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

We are two games into 2014 but this is what Champion Data had to say about Kreuzer/Warnock on their 2013 seasons.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

..great find effes, thanks for the info and addition to thread.. .... ..I dig champ data, and interesting to see how much better they both are as sole ruck.. ..krooz did however spend a third of his season as kpf.ruck, a role he is not suited to.. ..also, two of his games included injury, broken thumb and rushed game back when not ready which, as well as fwd role does bring down some of his season stats, which is why it was good that there was some info on his games as sole ruck.. ..also, knockers doesn't share ruck duties with anyone, he doesn't make a true ruck combo, he will technically share but it's always heavily in his favour since he simply can't play anywhere else at all..

..either way, which ever ruck we prefer, it's obvious recruiting them both was a huge blunder, since only one can truly shine and sure Jacobs was always going to leave but offloading hammer to keep these two was another mistake, cos we won't get the best out of them with shared duty.. ..or rather, not with krooz cos he will always be second ruck to knockers, and never the other way around.. ..but krooz champ data points when sole ruck are huge.. ..as for winning percentage, it's not as simple as who rucks, we were down on some players during krooz sole ruck stretch, but we will see soon enough how knockers goes carrying sole ruck load.. (if he can)

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..updated original post to include round 3 ruck battle..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..poor game from knockers, no real competition in the ruck but killed outside the tap..

..specialised rucks no longer part of modern game, no place for a tap specialist in our team until we are top four worthy, up until then you need more much more from your ruck unless rest of team is ace and firing consistently..,

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Yeah he wasn't great, but he's all we've got really.


Is Wood going to be elevated for Kreuzer?
Wouldn't mind giving him a crack while Robby has a rest, see if Cam can stake a claim.

Robby just couldn't keep his feet last night, and wasn't mobile enough.