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1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
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Author:  Cretylus [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
About one and half decades separate the 1995 and 1981/82 Carlton premiership teams. The purpose of this thread is to examine how these two teams would match up in a Grand Final.

The main assumption or condition for this exercise to be meaningful is that both teams would train at 1995 standards and have the same access to facilities and fitness regimes etc (supplement programs along the lines of the EFC*/Hird/Dank/Charters/Alavi doctrine are OUT of bounds – our champions are clean and honourable people, as is our club)

So who would win in a Grand Final?

I have a few reasons for concluding that the 81/82 team would find a way to conquer the 1995 team in a Grand Final.

The other main point to emerge from this exercise was that I couldn’t find an effective match up for Kouta, even though he hadn’t peaked in 1995. It seems that someone would have to soften Kouta up or take him out of the game via other means – perhaps a job for a sacrificial Bortolloto or the wily assassin Jimmy Buckley.

I would be interested to know what supporters think about the player match ups and other factors such as leadership, courage, and the character of each team and its individual players to fight back in games.

cheers

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Author:  DocSherrin III [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Cretylus wrote:
The main assumption or condition for this exercise to be meaningful is that both teams would train at 1995 standards and have the same access to facilities and fitness regimes


I'd suggest the aforementioned weren't too far apart.

Cretylus wrote:
The other main point to emerge from this exercise was that I couldn’t find an effective match up for Kouta


Doull's ability to play tall is the answer. He could shut Koutoufides down, but a 22 year old Kouta wouldn't be Parkin/Silvagni/Birt's biggest headache.

Cretylus wrote:
So who would win in a Grand Final?


81/82. I'll start with '82. But it depends how much I can alter history. I envisage a Ditchburn/Silvagni matchup. Providing Ditchburn doesn't go off the ground with concussion early - I'm using him as a decoy forward and starting him a bit further out. But I also want to expose Hogg, Rice and an inexperienced Whitehead to the Mosquito Fleet and have Sheldon, Ashman, Johnston, Marcou and Buckley going through the forward line and having plenty of room around Bosustow and McConville.

Wow Jones is my number one ruck against Madden. At 200cm - he's better built to compete with Harry than Fitzpatrick, whom I'm bringing off the bench late in quarters. Glascott is my most important player today. He's tagging Diesel around the ground while others take care of him at the stoppage. Buckley and Maylin are instructed to drive him into the ground at every opportunity. I think Glascott can run off Williams. Williams is slow and unaccountable. Others will do his chasing, but given what's at my disposal - I doubt Diesel is coming out after half time.

Perovic to Kernahan is one my more surprising moves. But he's the only one who has the height apart from Fitzpatrick. Maclure is only 188 but he's my backup despite giving away 6cm to Sticks. I'm confident he can play effective defence, and he may have to go to Spalding. McConville can play loose if desired. The Johnston/Bradley, Buckley/Brown matchups are to die for. McConville seems likely for Pearce.

Close match. 1982 by two goals.
Author:  aboynamedsue [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Hey Cretylus, my thoughts -

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29425&hilit=Parkin

:thumbsup:
Author:  Cretylus [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
aboynamedsue wrote:
Hey Cretylus, my thoughts -

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29425&hilit=Parkin

:thumbsup:


not all that surprised that this comparison has been mentioned before (even if its almost 3 years ago)

I actually believe the 95 team is a more dynamic and cohesive team - but I still think the 81/82 line up would somehow manage to will themselves to the contest and find a way to win in a Grand Final situation
Author:  CK95 [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
81/82 has a 2 man bench.

95 by 5 goals...
Author:  Cretylus [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
DocSherrin wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
The main assumption or condition for this exercise to be meaningful is that both teams would train at 1995 standards and have the same access to facilities and fitness regimes


I'd suggest the aforementioned weren't too far apart.

Cretylus wrote:
The other main point to emerge from this exercise was that I couldn’t find an effective match up for Kouta


Doull's ability to play tall is the answer. He could shut Koutoufides down, but a 22 year old Kouta wouldn't be Parkin/Silvagni/Birt's biggest headache.

Cretylus wrote:
So who would win in a Grand Final?


81/82. I'll start with '82. But it depends how much I can alter history. I envisage a Ditchburn/Silvagni matchup. Providing Ditchburn doesn't go off the ground with concussion early - I'm using him as a decoy forward and starting him a bit further out. But I also want to expose Hogg, Rice and an inexperienced Whitehead to the Mosquito Fleet and have Sheldon, Ashman, Johnston, Marcou and Buckley going through the forward line and having plenty of room around Bosustow and McConville.

Wow Jones is my number one ruck against Madden. At 200cm - he's better built to compete with Harry than Fitzpatrick, whom I'm bringing off the bench late in quarters. Glascott is my most important player today. He's tagging Diesel around the ground while others take care of him at the stoppage. Buckley and Maylin are instructed to drive him into the ground at every opportunity. I think Glascott can run off Williams. Williams is slow and unaccountable. Others will do his chasing, but given what's at my disposal - I doubt Diesel is coming out after half time.

Perovic to Kernahan is one my more surprising moves. But he's the only one who has the height apart from Fitzpatrick. Maclure is only 188 but he's my backup despite giving away 6cm to Sticks. I'm confident he can play effective defence, and he may have to go to Spalding. McConville can play loose if desired. The Johnston/Bradley, Buckley/Brown matchups are to die for. McConville seems likely for Pearce.

Close match. 1982 by two goals.


Yes some incredible match ups with players of diverse skill set.

The 95 side a little more robotic and disciplined - but the 81/82 x factor and individual brilliance across every line would make it a close game.

Probable English on Pearce - Des was very good with the resting rovers and could match the leading forwards with strength and agility. Des could also switch onto Clappe or Rice.

I would maybe drag Maclure back to the goal square and hope that SOS takes him - then Maclure could take SOS further up the ground.

The only thing I am quite certain of, is that the Dominator would start like a fire cracker and would most likely kick the first goal.

Spaulding could present problems with his sheer bulk - a massive man at 6ft 6" and 110 kg

A Southby (who was in our best team in 81/82 but missed through injury) would make a grand final win by the 81/82 line up a near certainty. It would mean Doull could be used as a more attacking player, with Perovic and Southby taking the talls.

Wayne Harmes - well what can we say about this dynamic freak. Could play anywhere.

I would love to see a Harmes-Kouta match up in the middle for a 15 minute burst. Could decide the outcome
Author:  cimm1979 [ Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
81/82 for me.

Just looks a better spread of talent.
Author:  ThePsychologist [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
1995 was the most self driven team in AFL history. After being turfed out in 1994 and then two big losses to Sydney and St Kilda in early 1995 they went on a run of quite incredible football. No one really got close and their whole finals campaign was first class.

Having said that the sides of 81/82 where as talented as you could get (for the time) and played some of the most exhilarating football I have ever seen. The famous 3rd quarter bursts became a regular trait. The mosquito fleet of Sheldon, Ashman, Marcou, Buckley, Glascott, Johnston, Harmes etc was just great to watch.

Bosustow was a freak. The bigger the stage the better the performance, Johnston even better. Hunter was a star and Doull was simply a great of the game that never made a mistake.

Des English I rate as equal of any Back Pocket that played the game. McConville was underrated and many times went forward and kicked goals even if he wasn't that tall.

Fitzy and WOW were a great ruck combo and spent time at CHF.

IMO Ditchburn was a fantastic player and if he stayed could of been anything. Great lead, one grab mark and a great kick for goal. No fuss. We were also able to get seemingly average players to come in and play vital roles. The finals games of Bortolotto and Howell were significant.

For me its 81/82 easily! That was my favourite period as a Carlton supporter. :wink:
Author:  AGRO [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.
Author:  Cretylus [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


The closest that I have seen in terms of the self belief and leadership of the 81/82 era (and probably the 79 side too) is the recent Geelong premiership teams (esp the 2009 and 2011 victories)

In terms of class I would say the Brisbane Lions in their 2001-2003 peak could match it with the 81/82 line up.

But the 1995 season as a stand alone season, and performance in the finals may not be repeated again. Just lost the two games then, 16 in a row. Took on a lot of genuine threats too, such as the cats, the reigning premiers Eagles, and other strong line ups.
Author:  AGRO [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Cretylus wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


The closest that I have seen in terms of the self belief and leadership of the 81/82 era (and probably the 79 side too) is the recent Geelong premiership teams (esp the 2009 and 2011 victories)

In terms of class I would say the Brisbane Lions in their 2001-2003 peak could match it with the 81/82 line up.

But the 1995 season as a stand alone season, and performance in the finals may not be repeated again. Just lost the two games then, 16 in a row. Took on a lot of genuine threats too, such as the cats, the reigning premiers Eagles, and other strong line ups.



The 68, 70, 72, premiership sides also closely resemble the Geelong 2007, 09, 11 sides.

Same coach for the first two premierships and then a change of coach for the third, of course as is usual our 3 premierships in 5 years team is overlooked whilst the media have a collective permanent woody over Geelong's team.
Author:  Fenwick Snap [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Cretylus wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


The closest that I have seen in terms of the self belief and leadership of the 81/82 era (and probably the 79 side too) is the recent Geelong premiership teams (esp the 2009 and 2011 victories)

In terms of class I would say the Brisbane Lions in their 2001-2003 peak could match it with the 81/82 line up.

But the 1995 season as a stand alone season, and performance in the finals may not be repeated again. Just lost the two games then, 16 in a row. Took on a lot of genuine threats too, such as the cats, the reigning premiers Eagles, and other strong line ups.



I know we'd all rather forget it, but if you're going to bring in other clubs, you surely have to consider Essenscum's 2000 side. They seem to have been driven by their 99 failure as much or even more so as our 95 side was driven by 93 and especially 94. We can speculate as to why no one got close to them that year (still reckon we would've nailed them with a fit Kouta, Bradley & SOS) or we can just ignore it because they're particularly on the nose at this present time.

Sorry for darkening this thread, but it's an elephant suggested by mention of Brizzie and Geelong sides. As you were...
Author:  CK95 [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Fenwick Snap wrote:
We can speculate as to why no one got close to them that year



Roids.
Author:  Cretylus [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
Fenwick Snap wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


The closest that I have seen in terms of the self belief and leadership of the 81/82 era (and probably the 79 side too) is the recent Geelong premiership teams (esp the 2009 and 2011 victories)

In terms of class I would say the Brisbane Lions in their 2001-2003 peak could match it with the 81/82 line up.

But the 1995 season as a stand alone season, and performance in the finals may not be repeated again. Just lost the two games then, 16 in a row. Took on a lot of genuine threats too, such as the cats, the reigning premiers Eagles, and other strong line ups.



I know we'd all rather forget it, but if you're going to bring in other clubs, you surely have to consider Essenscum's 2000 side. They seem to have been driven by their 99 failure as much or even more so as our 95 side was driven by 93 and especially 94. We can speculate as to why no one got close to them that year (still reckon we would've nailed them with a fit Kouta, Bradley & SOS) or we can just ignore it because they're particularly on the nose at this present time.

Sorry for darkening this thread, but it's an elephant suggested by mention of Brizzie and Geelong sides. As you were...


youre quite right, the Bombers only lost one game in 2000 and that was to a Terry Wallace led Bulldogs side that introduced flooding in the defence = a tactic that hadn't been effectively countered yet.

Personally I would rather treat anything to do with the Essendon* Football Club with a grain or salt, or with one very big asterix ********
Author:  Cretylus [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
AGRO wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


The closest that I have seen in terms of the self belief and leadership of the 81/82 era (and probably the 79 side too) is the recent Geelong premiership teams (esp the 2009 and 2011 victories)

In terms of class I would say the Brisbane Lions in their 2001-2003 peak could match it with the 81/82 line up.

But the 1995 season as a stand alone season, and performance in the finals may not be repeated again. Just lost the two games then, 16 in a row. Took on a lot of genuine threats too, such as the cats, the reigning premiers Eagles, and other strong line ups.



The 68, 70, 72, premiership sides also closely resemble the Geelong 2007, 09, 11 sides.

Same coach for the first two premierships and then a change of coach for the third, of course as is usual our 3 premierships in 5 years team is overlooked whilst the media have a collective permanent woody over Geelong's team.


the blues have often set the standards and trends in the game.

that 68 to 73 period was a great era, with strong opposition from the tigers, saints, pies, cats, hawks. Those flags were well earned.

Again, the blues had colourful players with mercurial skills, and the odd x-factor players like crosswell and Jackson etc

It is now up to the current Blues set up to set new trends - something I am less confident of (and the reason I say that, is partly due to the quality of the leadership in the playing group, and partly due to the conservative manner with which the club is run from the top - no creativity or thinking outside the box going on at VISY park at the moment)
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
AGRO wrote:
It's really like that saying which of your children do you love the most.

However I have to lean towards the 81/82 side, as they got the most out of themselves after a very shaky start to the season and a few hiccups midseason.

The 95 side great as it was really should have nailed another flag, and I'd argue should have three peated 93 through to 95.


They should have given 93-96 a crack, and been competitive in 97-98 too.

Almost as under performing as Essendon* 1999-2001 (Sorry. Had to be said)
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
CK95 wrote:
Fenwick Snap wrote:
We can speculate as to why no one got close to them that year



Haemorrhoids.
Author:  ThePsychologist [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
My Grandfather reckons the 1945 side would of beaten the crap out of both of them! :yikes:
Author:  Cretylus [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1995 vs 1981/82, Sticks vs Fitzy, Parko vs Parko
ThePsychologist wrote:
My Grandfather reckons the 1945 side would of beaten the crap out of both of them! :yikes:


if there were two Carlton grand finals that I would have love to attended, they would be the 1945 and 1970 grand finals

The 1945 blood bath was held at Princes Park where at least 60,000 people were shoe horned into the ground.

1945
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOii1O5owO4

1970
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXQj04uMtBU
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