TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Are blue skies ahead?

We are a still miles away

Our top 22 wont challenge the top 4 by a large stretch. On a good day where around the 6 th best team in the comp

There have been improvements stats wise this year but the biggest knock in this group is a lack of effort overall and no leaders when the chip are down.

If you look at it we only got rid of 3 guys last year and recruited 3 18 yearolds
Yesterday I went to the Geelong game and we had 15 guys(12 senior and 3 rookies) playing

IMO only Menzel, Collins. McInnes and Bootsma are worth keeping.
All the rest are either second or longer period players and are clearly not worth keeping

The cupboard is bare let me tell you and if we get half the injuries we got last year we are !@#$%& once again

I like the look of Graham from what i saw in the praccie games.
Menzel bar injury will be a player.
Collins copped a heavy clash and didnt see much action. went back into a pack(gutsy effort) but I personally like this bloke
McInnes is a good defender

The bottom line is this

We need a big clean out at the end of the year

We simply must start over again
I believe Scotland and Judd are in our top half dozen players and will be gone soon
Waite wont be far behind

IMO we must start rebuilding again
Hopefully the guys who are worth a spot on our list and are in their mid twenties can improve and become the experience and we can become a top 4 side with a batch of players

we must hope that the new recruiting team will have more hits and misses
and please recruit guys who can kick and make dood decisions more times than not

Yesterday at Geelong was depressing

We have always had players in form and players out. It is collectively that is the problem. As a group we lack the toughness required to make us difficult to play against for 115 mins each week.

It has been noted on here for years. I am disappointed we haven't addressed it properly and somehow got convinced that it all came down to the last coach. Dull thinking. Now he needed to be swapped out but the other 80% of the problem was not addressed last pre season when we had the chance. It will happen this year but unfortunately Micks ego has cost us 12mths. 12mths is all gold coast will require to beat us to the top even if we nail the personnel changes this pre season.

Skies still a little cloudy unfortunately.

club29 wrote:

again he did have 5 years to identify this and fix it..

we still have a bunch of players on our list were working through.

its why he had to go...... he couldnt organise a list in 5 seasons.

not dull thinking at all....

dull thinking is believing its the players that need sorting out but the coach does the same thing over an dover again...

and signs superflous types on mutiple season contracts and keeps trading and drafting for a position on the ground u only cant play them all... and taking away meanwhile mids are older and few

thats dull thinking!!!

Synbad wrote:

club29 wrote:

Agree Ratts had his chance. 5 years was enough time to get results. I have told you that is what I think many times. However, the only change was to the coach. That was it. People blaming our losses on player positions, the coaches appearance, what he ate during games, where he coached from, closed sessions, talking about stats in pressers etc.. anything the but the team being full of talented players collectively having no ticker. That is where it was dull thinking. Noone told the new coach or the new coach was off spruiking a book rather than spending a couple of weeks watching tapes or listening to people that knew the list needed fresh blood. The list needed a new face. One that was tough and hated losing and would do everything it could week after week to make sure it didn't happen.

The new coach thought he could turn it around. Ego or just plan lack of research into our last few years?
The same things are happening this year as last year and the years before that.

It will get done this pre season. 12 mths too late in my opinion.

Author:	Sugarcane [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Are blue skies ahead?
Talking to a fellow blue bagger today and we both agreed many individuals at the club seem to be playing near career best footy Walker Henderson Jamison Waite Garlett Armfield McLean Plus .. Simpson has turned the corner and last couple weeks has looked very good at HB Casboult was exceptional in the air the other night, easily his best game despite no goals Cachia was been terrific Touhy still improving Curnow has been good too Lucas, albeit can't tackle for sheet his numbers have gone trough the roof Kreuzer looking good when played in Ruck Ironically it's some of our better players who have yet to consistently hit their straps .. Murphy Judd Yarran Betts Scotland Gibbs Carrazzo Add to this despite having lost a fair number of games it's interesting our biggest losing margin is just 17 points, which means we've been in every game and at least have the psychological fortitude to not get bent over and smashed ! I just get the feeling we are maybe not that far away Some things need to change, but as Mick said after Fridays game "we are only 2-3 goals from the better teams". That's not a massive gap , especially considering we are still acclimatising to a new coach I know we're not doing as well as we'd all like but think about it, the side is a hell of a lot more settled and experienced than a couple years back Hendo and Jamo are now key pillars down back Waite seems to now realize his importance and also time in ticking for him Maybe Casboult will be his side kick Touhy has more games in him, as do Yazz, Jeff, Army etc Guess what I'm saying is, a lot of measures indicate we should be doing better than we are, so maybe the wheel is close to turning??

Author:	Teddy Hopkins [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
Don't let Synbad read this, you make too much sense.

Author:	DocSherrin III [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
The separating of 'form' and 'out of form' group is exactly our problem. Some players don't want to play a certain way. We have A-grade midfielders who are happy to sprint forward of the ball, but not put the same effort in the other way. Unless everyone plays as equals and plays to team rules - then you can't succeed. Having said that - there's quite a bit to be happy about...but equally there's lots to your head about (still).

Author:	Adam Chatfield [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
Still haven't figured out the best way to get the most from the group of relatively under performing stars in Murph, Gibbs, Yaz, Betts and Carrots (was a bit down before injured). I think we would of taken 6-5 especially when we were 0-3. Still its hard to see us getting much better with the run of games we have coming up.

Author:	ShanDog [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
There is plenty to look forward to in the next few years. I think across the ground we have all aspects covered with good or excellent players with the exception of the KPF. Waite can't be relied on and Casboult and co havent shown that they are ready to steer the club to a flag, but I have no doubt the recruiters will look to target someone like Buddy Franklin with a trade next year to fill that gap. Then we have the cattle, and only require a solid and well executed game plan. Thats a lot of "ifs", but we are looking better than we have in a long time IMHO.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Are blue skies ahead? http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33028	Page 1 of 8

Author:	keogh [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
We are a still miles away Our top 22 wont challenge the top 4 by a large stretch. On a good day where around the 6 th best team in the comp There have been improvements stats wise this year but the biggest knock in this group is a lack of effort overall and no leaders when the chip are down. If you look at it we only got rid of 3 guys last year and recruited 3 18 yearolds Yesterday I went to the Geelong game and we had 15 guys(12 senior and 3 rookies) playing IMO only Menzel, Collins. McInnes and Bootsma are worth keeping. All the rest are either second or longer period players and are clearly not worth keeping The cupboard is bare let me tell you and if we get half the injuries we got last year we are [REDACTED] once again I like the look of Graham from what i saw in the praccie games. Menzel bar injury will be a player. Collins copped a heavy clash and didnt see much action. went back into a pack(gutsy effort) but I personally like this bloke McInnes is a good defender The bottom line is this We need a big clean out at the end of the year We simply must start over again I believe Scotland and Judd are in our top half dozen players and will be gone soon Waite wont be far behind IMO we must start rebuilding again Hopefully the guys who are worth a spot on our list and are in their mid twenties can improve and become the experience and we can become a top 4 side with a batch of players we must hope that the new recruiting team will have more hits and misses and please recruit guys who can kick and make dood decisions more times than not Yesterday at Geelong was depressing

Author:	Macfart [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
To me this is Malthouses year of seeing which players are part of the future and which are not. I am expecting a fairly big turn over of players at he end of the year Like everyone I was gutted on Friday night however I just keep telling myself this is the year our players learn the Malthouse way and Malthouse learns who are he players we need

Author:	BlueDW [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
The OP makes far too much sense to be posting on TC. Banish him, common sneer has no place on this forum.

Author:	dadadadada [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
keogh wrote: We are a still miles away Our top 22 wont challenge the top 4 by a large stretch. On a good day where around the 6 th best team in the comp There have been improvements stats wise this year but the biggest knock in this group is a lack of effort overall and no leaders when the chip are down. If you look at it we only got rid of 3 guys last year and recruited 3 18 yearolds Yesterday I went to the Geelong game and we had 15 guys(12 senior and 3 rookies) playing IMO only Menzel, Collins. McInnes and Bootsma are worth keeping. All the rest are either second or longer period players and are clearly not worth keeping The cupboard is bare let me tell you and if we get half the injuries we got last year we are !@#$%& once again I like the look of Graham from what i saw in the praccie games. Menzel bar injury will be a player. Collins copped a heavy clash and didnt see much action. went back into a pack(gutsy effort) but I personally like this bloke McInnes is a good defender The bottom line is this We need a big clean out at the end of the year We simply must start over again I believe Scotland and Judd are in our top half dozen players and will be gone soon Waite wont be far behind IMO we must start rebuilding again Hopefully the guys who are worth a spot on our list and are in their mid twenties can improve and become the experience and we can become a top 4 side with a batch of players we must hope that the new recruiting team will have more hits and misses and please recruit guys who can kick and make dood decisions more times than not Yesterday at Geelong was depressing This is my concern with the so far no show of Watson, McCarthy and Mitchell. You just mentioned three terrific players getting to their last parts of their careers. One a father / son selection and the other two were trades. Shows how we have travelled with our player acquisition and development.

Author:	Sugarcane [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
keogh wrote: We are a still miles away Our top 22 wont challenge the top 4 by a large stretch. On a good day where around the 6 th best team in the comp There have been improvements stats wise this year but the biggest knock in this group is a lack of effort overall and no leaders when the chip are down. If you look at it we only got rid of 3 guys last year and recruited 3 18 yearolds Yesterday I went to the Geelong game and we had 15 guys(12 senior and 3 rookies) playing IMO only Menzel, Collins. McInnes and Bootsma are worth keeping. All the rest are either second or longer period players and are clearly not worth keeping The cupboard is bare let me tell you and if we get half the injuries we got last year we are !@#$%& once again I like the look of Graham from what i saw in the praccie games. Menzel bar injury will be a player. Collins copped a heavy clash and didnt see much action. went back into a pack(gutsy effort) but I personally like this bloke McInnes is a good defender The bottom line is this We need a big clean out at the end of the year We simply must start over again I believe Scotland and Judd are in our top half dozen players and will be gone soon Waite wont be far behind IMO we must start rebuilding again Hopefully the guys who are worth a spot on our list and are in their mid twenties can improve and become the experience and we can become a top 4 side with a batch of players we must hope that the new recruiting team will have more hits and misses and please recruit guys who can kick and make dood decisions more times than not Yesterday at Geelong was depressing I might be wrong but I think you are being a tad harsh saying we are miles away We ain't there that's for sure but the stats show we are not far off it I agree though depth is a concern and a clean out of sorts is on the cards I actually think it is time the club did some major trading to give this list a chance. Hawks, Swans, Coll don't hesitate to trade to top up and I think it's time we did the same Warnock would give us a decent return Thomas via free agency ... You might get Thomas and a good established player in return and this adds to our depth Maybe even consider trading Yarran - I'm not sure you can carry so many soft tops. You'd get gold for Yarran. If we can do that and keep our first pick that'd be a good outcome. I'd also consider pissing off Robbo. Let's not forget McCinnes and Graham appear to be god sorts and they have missed thus far in 2013 I do agree changes need to be made but with the same token not losing by more than 17 points and essentially being a few goals off the top teams is a sign we are not that far off it I'm really buoyed by Levi up forward and Hendo down back. If Waite and Jamison can stay fit we have 2 bookends either end now It'd be great to trade for a quality bookend to give us depth on that front. Warnock Hampson Robinson Yarran There's a bitto trade there if we want

Author:	club29 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
We have always had players in form and players out. It is collectively that is the problem. As a group we lack the toughness required to make us difficult to play against for 115 mins each week. It has been noted on here for years. I am disappointed we haven't addressed it properly and somehow got convinced that it all came down to the last coach. Dull thinking. Now he needed to be swapped out but the other 80% of the problem was not addressed last pre season when we had the chance. It will happen this year but unfortunately Micks ego has cost us 12mths. 12mths is all gold coast will require to beat us to the top even if we nail the personnel changes this pre season. Skies still a little cloudy unfortunately.

Author:	Synbad [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
club29 wrote: We have always had players in form and players out. It is collectively that is the problem. As a group we lack the toughness required to make us difficult to play against for 115 mins each week. It has been noted on here for years. I am disappointed we haven't addressed it properly and somehow got convinced that it all came down to the last coach. Dull thinking. Now he needed to be swapped out but the other 80% of the problem was not addressed last pre season when we had the chance. It will happen this year but unfortunately Micks ego has cost us 12mths. 12mths is all gold coast will require to beat us to the top even if we nail the personnel changes this pre season. Skies still a little cloudy unfortunately. again he did have 5 years to identify this and fix it.. we still have a bunch of players on our list were working through. its why he had to go...... he couldnt organise a list in 5 seasons. not dull thinking at all.... dull thinking is believing its the players that need sorting out but the coach does the same thing over an dover again... and signs superflous types on mutiple season contracts and keeps trading and drafting for a position on the ground u only cant play them all... and taking away meanwhile mids are older and few thats dull thinking!!!

Author:	Mickstar [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
SugarCane...............yep,reckon our second half of the season is gunna be better than our first.Been sayin' this for a while myself................and as far as turning over the list, whats new ? we had list cloggers when we were strong.In premiership years.All part of the footy cycle.

Author:	club29 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
Synbad wrote: club29 wrote: We have always had players in form and players out. It is collectively that is the problem. As a group we lack the toughness required to make us difficult to play against for 115 mins each week. It has been noted on here for years. I am disappointed we haven't addressed it properly and somehow got convinced that it all came down to the last coach. Dull thinking. Now he needed to be swapped out but the other 80% of the problem was not addressed last pre season when we had the chance. It will happen this year but unfortunately Micks ego has cost us 12mths. 12mths is all gold coast will require to beat us to the top even if we nail the personnel changes this pre season. Skies still a little cloudy unfortunately. again he did have 5 years to identify this and fix it.. we still have a bunch of players on our list were working through. its why he had to go...... he couldnt organise a list in 5 seasons. not dull thinking at all.... dull thinking is believing its the players that need sorting out but the coach does the same thing over an dover again... and signs superflous types on mutiple season contracts and keeps trading and drafting for a position on the ground u only cant play them all... and taking away meanwhile mids are older and few thats dull thinking!!! Agree Ratts had his chance. 5 years was enough time to get results. I have told you that is what I think many times. However, the only change was to the coach. That was it. People blaming our losses on player positions, the coaches appearance, what he ate during games, where he coached from, closed sessions, talking about stats in pressers etc.. anything the but the team being full of talented players collectively having no ticker. That is where it was dull thinking. Noone told the new coach or the new coach was off spruiking a book rather than spending a couple of weeks watching tapes or listening to people that knew the list needed fresh blood. The list needed a new face. One that was tough and hated losing and would do everything it could week after week to make sure it didn't happen. The new coach thought he could turn it around. Ego or just plan lack of research into our last few years? The same things are happening this year as last year and the years before that. It will get done this pre season. 12 mths too late in my opinion.

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Author:	Wangers [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
The basic skills of the game are our problem - field kicking and kicking for goal. We have no problem with contested possessions (getting the ball), but we time and time again butcher the ball. It's what separates the top sides from the rest - Geelong, Hawks, Sydney. Until we draft or develop our skills/techniques of our players to kick the ball effectively, then we will always be a mediocre team at best. I kid you not, if we master the art of kicking the ball and hitting targets - long, short, medium distances, we will win most games!!!

Author:	emtwenty [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
Our best players are injury prone, nearing 30 or on the wrong side of 30. - Waite, Jamo, Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland and Walker We then have a group of highly skilled players in the right age bracket - Murph, Gibbs, Kruze, Eddie, Jeffy, Yarran, Hendo, Tuohy and Dennis (& Robbo - right age but not exactly highly skilled) The issue is the 1st group of players are ageing quick and will most likely not be around/still performing well, when Mick has made his culls and developed the game plan/list. Then, we have some young kids who have showed signs/potential - Boots, Andy Mac, Lucas, Graham, Menzel, Buckley, Cachia, Curnow, Mitchell, Temay and Levi Then we have some floaters who are stuck between potential and dead wood - Hampson, Warnock, White and Rowe Finally, and this is where our development program/system has failed miserably, we have a whole lot of dead wood/players on scrap heap/players Mick has told wont play again and will be traded/delisted - Watson, McCarthy, Duigan, Joseph, Collins, Davies, Dale and Laidler (which is a damn right shame) The 2010 draft (bar Andy Mac) is beginning to look like a massive flop. Probably time to cut our losses as from what I've heard/seen, none of them have impressed Mick and he has made it abundantly clear to the club Watson will be gone come the end of the year. In my opinion, we began looking for replacements for the senior group of players too late. We really only started last year with Graham, Menzel and Temay. For years we drafted talls that have not come on or we got rookies hoping to groom them into future Scotland's, Judd's and Simpson's. That was never going to cut it. In my opinion, the older crop of players sadly won't be around when we are ready to really challenge. Because we need a massive clean out of the dead wood and a huge injection of good drafting/development/trades. Hopefully the 2ic to Stephen wells will help with the drafting, but it's definitely not a given. The VFL game against Geelong was a stark reminder of the lack of quality we have developing and ready to step in (ie depth). Laidler is a shadow of 2011, Duigan too. Davies, Joseph, Watson and Hampson are not going to help us improve (frankly I doubt they are AFL quality really). Shop players around during trade period. Cull the dead wood. Start drafting kids who can kick and will put their head over the ball and not crack under pressure. Get in some Free Agents. Trade a ruck. Do what Collingwood did with Dawes and Wellingham and trade out players who are excess and get some earlier draft picks.

Author:	cimm1979 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
club29 wrote: Synbad wrote: club29 wrote: We have always had players in form and players out. It is collectively that is the problem. As a group we lack the toughness required to make us difficult to play against for 115 mins each week. It has been noted on here for years. I am disappointed we haven't addressed it properly and somehow got convinced that it all came down to the last coach. Dull thinking. Now he needed to be swapped out but the other 80% of the problem was not addressed last pre season when we had the chance. It will happen this year but unfortunately Micks ego has cost us 12mths. 12mths is all gold coast will require to beat us to the top even if we nail the personnel changes this pre season. Skies still a little cloudy unfortunately. again he did have 5 years to identify this and fix it.. we still have a bunch of players on our list were working through. its why he had to go...... he couldnt organise a list in 5 seasons. not dull thinking at all.... dull thinking is believing its the players that need sorting out but the coach does the same thing over an dover again... and signs superflous types on mutiple season contracts and keeps trading and drafting for a position on the ground u only cant play them all... and taking away meanwhile mids are older and few thats dull thinking!!! Agree Ratts had his chance. 5 years was enough time to get results. I have told you that is what I think many times. However, the only change was to the coach. That was it. People blaming our losses on player positions, the coaches appearance, what he ate during games, where he coached from, closed sessions, talking about stats in pressers etc.. anything the but the team being full of talented players collectively having no ticker. That is where it was dull thinking. Noone told the new coach or the new coach was off spruiking a book rather than spending a couple of weeks watching tapes or listening to people that knew the list needed fresh blood. The list needed a new face. One that was tough and hated losing and would do everything it could week after week to make sure it didn't happen. The new coach thought he could turn it around. Ego or just plan lack of research into our last few years? The same things are happening this year as last year and the years before that. It will get done this pre season. 12 mths too late in my opinion. I found that a bit puzzling myself. MM obviously made the call on the assistant coaches before he started I reckon there would have been a few players he may have had a good idea about as well, but nothing happened. Was it a mistake or part of his " everyone gets a fresh start" commitment?

Author:	Humpers [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
My major concern is that Judd, Waite and Scotland are all nearing the end of their careers. It's not all doom and gloom however as we do have some good young players coming through in Menzel (if his knee holds up), Bootsma and McInnes. Maybe Watson can prove himself at AFL level which would allow Hendo to go forward? Maybe Graham will be another good young player? If we landed Dale Thomas as a free agent obviously that would be a huge boost. I'm not so confident however that we would get much in return for our "expendable" players like Hampson etc.

Author:	mots [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
I don't think we were able to be all that active last pre season as far as trading goes. With salary cap so tight we were pretty well stuffed. I think it was also important that MM be able to make his own decision as to who gets delisted or traded. This will happen this year. If we want to be serious we have really wasted the best part of the last five years. I love Ratts as a Carlton person always have and always will but he should never have been appointed and that is not his fault. I don't know how far away we are from being a top four team. To be even considered in the top bracket must be able to beat the likes of the Cats, Hawks and Swans and not drop games against the Tigers, Pies and Saints. Good test this week. Lets see where we are at. Not expecting a win but if we could knock them over it will have a very positive mental affect.

Author:	TruBlueBrad [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Are blue skies ahead?
Last week we were average, this week we're on the up.