OC.'snip'
Regards Cazzesman
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| The Blues http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32316 |
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| Author: | Ockham's Razor [ Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Blues |
Not sure if I should bother posting this, no doubt I'll cop some sh1t but what the heck. Several years ago we were stuffed, many on here couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, indeed many couldn't see the tunnel! Since then we've had mediocre results, but incremental improvement year on year as a club with this year as an aberration. In the darkest of days we had people who chose to step up and put THEIR best efforts in for the club. They did more than I did to right the ship, I suspect they did more than anyone on here - thank you Stephen Moulton et al. I wouldn't dare to judge your intentions or effort - you stood up and you gave for our club. ======== immediately post Pagan era the board had a choice - bring the Carlton back to Carlton or take a riskier approach. Reassure ALL that Carlton was on the rise (& be conservative) or take a bolder approach and risk everything. The riskier approach may have delivered faster and better results but the down side of another failure would have been disastrous given where we were coming from. The board chose the conservative approach, hoping for a better outcome than we've got but knowing that the downside of this approach was better than the downside of a riskier approach. In hindsight we can all query decisions, however, in life every decision needs to be contemplated in the light of the circumstances which existed at the time of the decision. It is intellectually weak to judge decisions in isolation without considering ALL the surrounding facts. Its equally intellectually weak & arguably lazier to blindly accept all that is done. A balance in everything is needed. Perspective is vital. We've slowly built. We've slowly improved. We are miles better than 5+ years ago. We are collectively disappointed and wanted more from the past few years, but incrementally we are better. The board are successful people, they want our club to succeed. No one is content with where we are today & everyone at the club, including the supporters together will ensure we succeed. It's possible we've had the board, we've had the effort, we've had the outcome we've needed to build the sustainable future we need for our children to enjoy the success I've enjoyed. It's possible that all has not been sh1t at the Blues over the past few years. If we'd had immediate success on the teat of Pratt perhaps we would have learned nothing? And perhaps, just perhaps, we have learned slowly from our climb out of the mire. |
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| Author: | Cazzesman [ Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
| OC. 'snip' Regards Cazzesman |
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| Author: | Stamos [ Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
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| Author: | Taff [ Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Well said. |
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| Author: | CK95 [ Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
We didn't take the safe conservative route at all IMO 
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| Author: | aerodyte [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Great post. I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure I understand what is meant by the conservative approach. To me Carlton is the like a successful man whose identity was completely rocked by a crisis induced psychosis. Everything we'd built fell apart. Things got very dark at our lowest point. We were morbid. Who knows what would have happened if the family hadn't reached out. We're putting the pieces back together, slowly. But we'll never be the same person again. And maybe that's the point. |
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| Author: | Synbad [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
the wasted decade. no excuse to being this poor. swans last night have rebuilt a football side to go into the grand final again after consecutive grand finals six years ago. we didn't fire a shot go that time. mediocrity excuses! 'snip' |
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| Author: | Rexy [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Cazzesman & Synners knock it off will ya !! move on! |
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| Author: | dane [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | The Blues |
'snip' |
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| Author: | 99prelim [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
How can an untried coach with no CV be considered conservative? How can leaving an 'out of his depth and reluctant' president running the show for so long be conservative? Maybe we need to change 'conservative' to 'uninspiring' or 'lazy' |
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| Author: | verbs [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Maybe some people need to find a different hobby. |
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| Author: | Rexy [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Maybe this thread gets locked and bans handed out if people continue the personal jibes at each other ! |
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| Author: | JohnM [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
I don't think we were conservative, nor do I think we adopted a high risk/high reward strategy either. In fact, I don't think there has been a deliberate strategy at all. More like a series of decisions, taken at the time. Expediency has ruled the day. Ratten was actually a huge risk because he was very raw. But it was also a safe choice because firstly, as sticks said 'he was there' and secondly, he was Carlton. There haven't been any innovations at Carlton for a decade. I don't think this is due to a strategic decision to play it safe, more an inability to actually innovate. I'm talking about the business here, not onfield. Still, I am very thankful that the board and the executive didn't overextend themselves by genuinely going high risk/high reward. I don't think they would've pulled it off. One more year of sticks running the place, and then maybe we can start to think about doing the things that will see us the equal of hawthorn, Collingwood, Geelong, west coast and all the other clubs that have left us behind. Everything is relative. The people on our board, relative to the average person, are very capable. Relative to directors at the best clubs, perhaps less so. But its not about the individuals on the board, it's about the board's performance as a collective. I don't think the board as a whole has covered itself in glory, because I think it's been very poorly led. In fact, I don't think it's really been led at all. |
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| Author: | Ockham's Razor [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Maybe my post wasn't as eloquent as it could have been. I think the Ratten era was a failure. I think there have been multiple errors by the club over the past decade. I wish we had made other decisions which gave us success. We didn't so believe we need to consider the context in which these errors were made - that's all. Towards the end of the Pagan era our brand was stuffed. We couldn't buy corporate support. We couldn't leverage our brand to get TV coverage or quality sponsorship. We needed to re-engage with our core support groups. The Blues were a basket case - a result of many errors but make no mistake we were in genuine trouble. By making a "conservative" choice I meant in the sense of re-engaging all of our support groups. not hard core supporters like on TC - who are rusted on to the Blues, but corporates, advertisers, TV audiences, the AFL, theatre going supporters. We needed to change the perception of our brand as being cellar dwellers. By appointing Ratten memories of the glory days were reignited. People began to believe again. In hindsight it didnt work, however, at the time it created a spark. Our rebuild had commenced. We've faltered and the era hasn't ended where we wanted it to, however make no mistake we needed a spark. I understand others views and I'm not trying to excuse the stuff ups, just reckon we need to acknowledge the reason why decisions were made rather than simply dismissing every decision as crap. I'm not passionately supporting the board I just understand (not excuse) some of their decisions. That's all. |
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| Author: | Stone Free [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
I think we've improved massively since the dark years. Our current best 22 would easily account for our best 22 from 2004 wouldn't matter who the coach was. Trouble is the other 17 teams have also improved, so it actually starts to resemble an arms race. |
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| Author: | Pafloyul [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Stone Free wrote: I think we've improved massively since the dark years. Our current best 22 would easily account for our best 22 from 2004 wouldn't matter who the coach was. Trouble is the other 17 teams have also improved, so it actually starts to resemble an arms race. Well that's the thing, isn't it. I'm sure Carlton has been guilty of insular reasoning in the past, I've been saying we have been preparing for a stab at the top 4 and a premiership without being fully prepared. The fans are the same; people have acknowledged that player 'A' or 'B' or 'X' is not up to it, or in the very least, not ready, and in the next breath have stated how much of a good chance we were. That doesn't add up. I just hoped we've moved on. |
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| Author: | padre [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Blues |
Fantastic original post imo. Were we right to change coach? I think undoubtedly yes. Is this fair to ratten? In a moral sense probably not. But ratten knew the game he was in, as should all afl coaches, who by the way are paid very well. High risk(career wise) high reward. Live by the sword , die by the sword. So we move on to a new coach. Our new coach has his detractors none the least those supporting our mighty club. Why? Because he coached collingwood and was bloody good at it. The natural reaction is to "hate" such an individual, especially if he has shown to be extremely competent in what he does, coach. Have we made the right decision with MM. Who knows, like the OP we have made the most logical decision and gone for the best coach available and i would include Roos in the group. MM has proven himself over a very long time. His strengths are our current weakness. The is simply no argument imo, we have the best coach that fits our current situation (echoing back to the OP and our decision to appoint Ratten) IMO we were heading towards a grand final berth until injuries decimated our structure. We never had time to readjust our game plan to the first crop of injuries before we got lumbered with another lot of injuries, suspensions etc. It was our annus horibilus. That was bad luck for us the supporters, the players, and of course Ratten. Do we have a depth problem? Possibly. But i defy most sides to be able to carry on our early momentum faced with the level of our injuries. For me the jury is out on our depth still. Are we mentally fragile? Again the jury is out. Without doubt younger players ARE mentally fragile. And unfortunately we were forced to play a lot of inexperienced players due to our injuries. Additionally some of our more experienced players were forced to either play out of there best position eg walker , or had to modify their playing style to fill gaps or to readjust to a new team structure eg judd. Under malthouse expect our depth to seemingly improve because MM believes that you need to have 2 players for every position. That means no more masses of unspecialized players who can slot in to a lot of positions( but be master of none) rather it means making some tough and intellectually challenging decisions as to where a player should be played, and then sticking to this plan. Walker stays up forward. Henderson stays down back. Kreuzer stays on the ball. Casboult plays close to goal to assist his goal kicking etc etc. No more experimenting and rotating players. Decisions will be made( after interviewing all players personally) about what each players role will be in the team, and that will be it. No more second guesses in the players minds about what their team role is. They will be drilled and trained for a specific role and thats it. That role will become second nature. If they get injured there will be a ready replacement champing at the bit to slot into the team structure. Expect big changes afoot with the northern blues. It will not be tolerated that potential senior players will be allowed to merely drift along without any strategy. MM will demand that his strategy (that of developing second players for every position) is implemented . Players will seem to suddenly emerge. Merely because they know what there team role is once given a chance in the seniors. This is the Malthouse difference and this is why Ratten had to go. |
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| Author: | SurreyBlue [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
When you build a culture (which we did with "losing games and accepting it") then these are the repercussions. Unfortunately, our players don't hurt when they lose one game, let alone hurt when they don't play finals as much as they should. We have become the VFL Saints in the AFL!!!! |
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| Author: | Blue Sombrero [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Put this thread on 'pause' and reopen it in three years. Then well have a better idea of everything. |
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| Author: | keogh [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Blues |
Conservative Patient my arse The Judd deal Warnock McLean Ratten one and half years in the system coaches us for 5 years. I would say we have wanted success too quickly and it has cost us severely once again. To me recruitment is fast becoming the most important area in footy. Look at Geelong in the VFL yesterday. Wells keeps finding the right stuff. Our recruitment has been substandard compared to Geelongs' the Judd deal was a quick fix and it can be deemed a failure if we dont win a flag with Judd on the list. The other thing highlighted out of yesterday's VFL Grand Final is the importance of stand alone teams Lindsay Gilbee brought up the point that the senior and reserves coach must be on the same page as far as game plans and style. This didnt happen this year. We were a mess. Ratten can take much of the blame for this. The board's decision to give him the job was the wrong one. Hopefully the footy department runs better under Malthouse. |
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