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The development glass ceiling.
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Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  The development glass ceiling.
One thing that has interested me in watching our team over the years is the lack of full development.
Players flash in and out of form.
I really cant think of anyone that has made it into an elite AFL footballer.

We have had players lose confidence .
some wanting to leave.

And overall... just lacking mental toughness and the WANT to be true champions.

Following our players is like playing a game of snakes and ladders.

I dont usually start threads but i think this needs to be digested.
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Can you be more specific about who hasn't developed or is this a general analysis of the team as a whole?
Author:  Navy Blue Horse [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
I would say he means the likes of Simpson, Russell, Betts, Gibbs, Waite
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Never assume to know what the Sailor Man is thinking NBH.
Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Juanita , youre not reading correctly.

They develop and then regress.

Nobody is on the upward sustained climb.


and yes.. cos that happens to the players individually it translates to a team treading water.
Author:  kingkerna [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Lack the 'WANT' - very hard to determine that as an outsider.

They sure had the 'WANT' in that final against the WCE last year.

It's a long season, 'if' we can play to our potential and time it for pointy end of the season we'll all be pretty happy.

Let's see how it pans out over the next month. Then we can make big statements.
Author:  Heavs [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
So would you agree that it is not the drafting so much as the development of the player after they come to the club that is the issue?

I agree with KK - there doesn't appear to be the desire in the younger group to be the best they can be. To push themselves through the ceiling. Whether that is development or character of the blokes I don't know and can't say. It's a legitimate concern though.
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
They develop and then regress?

Put a mark next to their names - I'll make it easy for you by listing them.

1. Tex
2. JR
3. Murphy
4. GIBBS
5. Judd
6. Simmo
7 Buckley
8. Kroos
9. Lucas
10. Watson
11. Warnock
12. Robbo
13. Yarran
14. McLean
15. Laidler
16. Collins
17. Rowe
18. Bower
19. Eddie
20. O'Keefe
21. Bootsma
22. Hampson
23. Hendo
24. McCarthy
25. Mitchell
26. McInnes
27. Army
29. Scotland
30. Waite
31. Davies
32. T Bird
34. Duigan
35. Curnow
36. Kerr
38. Jeffy
39. Dale
40. Jamo
41. Levi
42. Zach
43. White
44. Carrots
45. AJ
46. Ellard
47. Carter

I'm not having a dig but I want you to name the HBF who have regressed.
Author:  Navy Blue Horse [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Heavs wrote:
So would you agree that it is not the drafting so much as the development of the player after they come to the club that is the issue?

I agree with KK - there doesn't appear to be the desire in the younger group to be the best they can be. To push themselves through the ceiling. Whether that is development or character of the blokes I don't know and can't say. It's a legitimate concern though.



Laidler is the perfect example. Plays beyond his years. Developed at Geelong.
Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
I agree that both drafting and development are inadequate.

Yes!!

We dont have too many hard ball winners.

That is a drafting error of mega proportions in our drafting strategy.

I believe were average in every aspect
Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Juanita Jones wrote:
They develop and then regress?

Put a mark next to their names - I'll make it easy for you by listing them.

1. Tex
2. JR
3. Murphy
4. GIBBS
5. Judd
6. Simmo
7 Buckley
8. Kroos
9. Lucas
10. Watson
11. Warnock
12. Robbo
13. Yarran
14. McLean
15. Laidler
16. Collins
17. Rowe
18. Bower
19. Eddie
20. O'Keefe
21. Bootsma
22. Hampson
23. Hendo
24. McCarthy
25. Mitchell
26. McInnes
27. Army
29. Scotland
30. Waite
31. Davies
32. T Bird
34. Duigan
35. Curnow
36. Kerr
38. Jeffy
39. Dale
40. Jamo
41. Levi
42. Zach
43. White
44. Carrots
45. AJ
46. Ellard
47. Carter

I'm not having a dig but I want you to name the HBF who have regressed.



a baby will develop.

BUT none of those guys have had a sustained upward curve to elite AFL talent.

Take Murph out.. hes a number 1 pick.

You tell me who our Mathew Boyd /Dane Swann/Jobe Watson is.?
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
I gave you a list and you have chosen to ignore it.

You are now saying who are our hard-bodied midfielder is, so it's no longer about development and regression but about drafting/trading for an extractor.

I would say Carrots is our Mathew Boyd /Dane Swann/Jobe Watson.
Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Juanita Jones wrote:
I gave you a list and you have chosen to ignore it.

You are now saying who are our hard-bodied midfielder is, so it's no longer about development and regression but about drafting/trading for an extractor.

I would say Carrots is our Mathew Boyd /Dane Swann/Jobe Watson.

Carrots???

Cos hes injured???

Look... Carrots has proven nothing.

IF youre going to put Carrots in that cataguory why stop there???

Yes ive chosen to not respond to a list of 42 names cos i would say the whole lot.

Why do it individually???
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
So every player has regressed or stalled in his development?

I didn't chose Carrots because his injured. The only question mark on Carrots has been his disposal at times.

If you are looking for a team made up of Boyd/Swan/Watson - good for you but they don't exist. If you want them to compliment what we have then you would be saying that the whole team hasn't regressed.

You have a bea in your bonnet about not having enough midfielders - no one is arguing that with you.

At least the Pysch is trying to be logical in his summations, you just throw things out there to get a bite, which I am doing an excellent job of for you BTW :lol:

We are all shitty about last night [except Ryan who made some nice coin :grin:]

When the team plays badly, we look very very ordinary. We do need some big changes and we do need to recruit better.

Looking forward to next few rounds of footy.
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
JJ don't turn this into lets take a pot shot at Synbad thread - Been on here for a long time and like many get tired of his rants - But here he has a point - we see what I call subliminal glimpses of players talent then they disappear - Ratts was talking in a presser the other day about a long slow rise to the top - I fear that we will be at the top and topple over before we meet out goal .

My own opinion is that Carlton has never developed players it has an history of seeking the best and going out and getting them when they have been fully established - I know times of changed but we seem to be sitting back waiting for something to happen - Waiting for Murph Gibbs Kruez Yarren Russell to suddenly become elite and win us a flag - and at the same time we have really struggled to develop the next tear of player down
Our record with turning 2nd and 3rd round draft picks in decent players is severely flawed
We have better success with rookies - but rookies are rookies for a reason they usually have some quirk in their game that stops them from getting drafted in the first place

We are in trouble at the moment we could potentially finish this year with less wins than last year - We could lose 5 out of the next 7 and be sitting 7 and 7 at round 14
Author:  kingkerna [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
panic much?
Author:  Juanita Jones [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
SB, who are the players who have regressed?

My 2 cents worth are as follows

1. Tex - No
2. JR - Yes
3. Murphy - N
4. GIBBS - Stagnated
5. Judd - N
6. Simmo N
7 Buckley ?
8. Kroox N
9. Lucas - Stagnated
10. Watson Still developing
11. Warnock N
12. Robbo N
13. Yarran N
14. McLean Y
15. Laidler N
16. Collins Still developing IMO
17. Rowe N
18. Bower Y
19. Eddie N
20. O'Keefe ?
21. Bootsma ?
22. Hampson N
23. Hendo N
24. McCarthy ?
25. Mitchell ?
26. McInnes ?
27. Army N but still developing
29. Scotland N
30. Waite N but frustrates
31. Davies Y
32. T Bird N
34. Duigan Stagnating
35. Curnow N but still developing
36. Kerr Stagnating
38. Jeffy N but needs a breather
39. Dale ?
40. Jamo N
41. Levi Still developing although he is injured
42. Zach Still developing
43. White Stagnating
44. Carrots N
45. AJ Y
46. Ellard ? Good game last night but not sold on him
47. Carter ?
Author:  Synbad [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
Juanita Jones wrote:
SB, who are the players who have regressed?

My 2 cents worth are as follows

1. Tex - No
2. JR - Yes
3. Murphy - N
4. GIBBS - Stagnated
5. Judd - N
6. Simmo N
7 Buckley ?
8. Kroox N
9. Lucas - Stagnated
10. Watson Still developing
11. Warnock N
12. Robbo N
13. Yarran N
14. McLean Y
15. Laidler N
16. Collins Still developing IMO
17. Rowe N
18. Bower Y
19. Eddie N
20. O'Keefe ?
21. Bootsma ?
22. Hampson N
23. Hendo N
24. McCarthy ?
25. Mitchell ?
26. McInnes ?
27. Army N but still developing
29. Scotland N
30. Waite N but frustrates
31. Davies Y
32. T Bird N
34. Duigan Stagnating
35. Curnow N but still developing
36. Kerr Stagnating
38. Jeffy N but needs a breather
39. Dale ?
40. Jamo N
41. Levi Still developing although he is injured
42. Zach Still developing
43. White Stagnating
44. Carrots N
45. AJ Y
46. Ellard ? Good game last night but not sold on him
47. Carter ?



Wasnt Tex on the trading block???
Carrots on the back of what???.... if he was still playing wed get a better indication.

Actually the most consistent player is Laidler

Give him time.....
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Tue May 15, 2012 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
It not a matter of regressing it is not taking the next step

Apart form cameo from Hampson who has really stood up this year who has taken their game to the next level

It initially appeared that Betts had and Walker seems to have found another leg moving up forward

But we struggle from there on, apart from the natural progression on the top 10 's but they were all guns to begin with
Author:  DocSherrin III [ Tue May 15, 2012 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The development glass ceiling.
It does take some boys until that 50-60 game mark to develop, but we have been very late to the development party. I still don't think all the pieces are in place. The club need to get some continuity in place, but I don't think they've managed to achieve it with their affiliate due to putting 'winning' before 'development' under Teague (2007-2010) and Harris (2011).

Taking a look at that list and I don't see how McLean, Collins, O'Keeffe, Davies, Kerr, White, Carter, Casboult & Joseph are at the club next year. I'm not convinced the problem with that lot is development rather than a) injury rendering them useless or b) not up to the standard. If you're not up to it, there's not much chance even the best development will get you there.
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